Miscellaneous observations on the Pre Trib Rapture

[rebuilder 454]

Oh sorry, I did mean the seventh bowl of wrath.

And tribulation is the wrath of God.

"THE LIGHT'S" ENTIRE eschatology is in :"discerning" a strict adherence to definitions.
1) mat 24 " power and great glory " has to be before the "wrath" ( which is simply mid trib of the 7 yr trib of daniel)
2) Rev 14: 14 is the second coming in power and great Glory.
3)" like manner" of Acts 1 is not really "like manner"...( even though it does not matter in the least to his timeline, to strictly interpret "like manner" as "like manner")
4 ) when the dead in Christ are raised, Jesus does not bring their spirits with him from heaven, to re occupy the bodies resurrected.
Instead 1 these 4 can ONLY MEAN, that , at the rapture, ONLY THE DEAD IN CHRIST, ARE RAPTURED.
Those alive have to sit in the trib for some (days ? Months?) And THEN Jesus will return for a second rapture for the living...and THEN, ( days Months years later) HE WILL BRING THOSE RAPTURED, PREVIOUSLY AND RAISED FROM THE DEAD (DAYS, MONTHS? ..OR WHATEVER "PAUSE"), and together they rapture the living.

ALL BECAUSE 1 THES 4 SAYS "THEN"

SO ...ALL THAT....IS BECAUSE ...HE SAYS THE GT IS NOT 7 YRS...BUT STRICTLY "WRATH VS TRIB." ( IOW, there is no 7 yr gt whatsoever.)
HUH?????????????

 

[rebuilder 454]

How can tribulation be the wrath of God when the tribulation is over at the 6th seal and the wrath of God is the 7th seal???????????????

Here is Rev 6
The sixth seal
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

That is Rev 19.
When Jesus comes in power and great glory.

Which you deny.
Instead you have Jesus coming in power and great Glory in the middle of the 7 yr trib.

The second coming of Rev 19, is power wrath and glory.

But it interrupts the time line you have a huge investment in

 

[The Light]

Well if you leave out Daniel then you can do what you do.
You make Jesus coming in power and great Glory into Jesus coming in Rev 14.
I suppose Rev 19 is not Jesus coming in power and great glory.

Not leaving out Daniel.

Jesus does come in power and glory in Rev 14 which occurs at the 6th seal. Why do you think Jesus coming with the angels to gather the elect would not be in power and glory? You never answer that................

Why would you suppose that Jesus would not be in power and glory in Rev 19? You have already supposed that He is not in power and glory in Rev 14.

The point of the matter is that Jesus comes in power and glory after the signs in the sun, moon and stars, which is the 6th seal.

 

[The Light]

Here is Rev 6
The sixth seal
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

That is Rev 19.
When Jesus comes in power and great glory.

Please show any post that I have ever made where I have said that Jesus does not come in power and glory in Revelation 19.

You are the one that seems to be denying that Jesus comes in power and glory in Rev 14.

Which you deny.
Instead you have Jesus coming in power and great Glory in the middle of the 7 yr trib.

Again. Another false conclusion. Do you not understand what IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION means. I'll help you. It means the tribulation is OVER.

If the tribulation is over why do you think I have Jesus coming in the middle of the tribulation?

Constant false conclusions by you. It's never ending.

The second coming of Rev 19, is power wrath and glory.

The second coming occurs at the 6th IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBUALTION and BEFORE the 7th seal wrath of God.

But it interrupts the time line you have a huge investment in

I'm just reading what the scripture says. I'm not sure why you cannot grasp the FACT that the tribulation of those days, which is the Great Tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Are you unable to understand that the signs of the sun, moon and stars tells you that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal, and Jesus returns for a harvest?

Do you not understand there is a great multitude in heaven before the 7th seal is opened? Do you not understand that the great multitude is in heaven during the trumpets and vials of wrath? Do you not understand the great multitude is at the marriage supper of the Lamb? After this the armies of Heaven follow Jesus to Armageddon.

All you have to do is read what it says.

 

[The Light]

Oh sorry, I did mean the seventh bowl of wrath.

And tribulation is the wrath of God.

How can the tribulation of those days be the wrath of God when the great tribulation is when Christians are killed for their faith. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. The seventh seal is the one year wrath of God. This is when God punishes an evil world.

The great tribulation is not the wrath of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

3)" like manner" of Acts 1 is not really "like manner"...( even though it does not matter in the least to his timeline, to strictly interpret "like manner" as "like manner")

Everyone, look at what this guy does. He tries to change scripture. He says "like manner" doesn't really mean "like manner". What a joke. I hope you know that no one here takes you seriously at all because of nonsense like this.

4 ) when the dead in Christ are raised, Jesus does not bring their spirits with him from heaven, to re occupy the bodies resurrected.
Instead 1 these 4 can ONLY MEAN, that , at the rapture, ONLY THE DEAD IN CHRIST, ARE RAPTURED.

Why can't He bring their souls and spirits with Him? You just say things like this with no explanation behind it. You think people will just take your word for it? What is the basis for that comment?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How can the tribulation of those days be the wrath of God when the great tribulation is when Christians are killed for their faith. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars. The seventh seal is the one year wrath of God. This is when God punishes an evil world.

The great tribulation is not the wrath of God.

Agree, other than the one year wrath of God thing (we don't need to go into that again, so please don't bother).

These discussions become pointless when people use different definitions for terms such as "tribulation". The tribulation that occurs before Jesus returns relates to persecution, a mass falling away from the faith and increased deception and wickedness. Not God's wrath. So, unless we're on the same page with the terms we're using, any discussion about pre-trib vs. post-trib is meaningless since each person is not even talking about the same thing when referring to tribulation. Clearly, the wrath doesn't come or isn't at hand until the sixth seal, but people have it occurring somehow before that. No, both Jesus and Revelation 6:12-17 make it clear that the wrath comes after the tribulation of those days.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Again. Another false conclusion. Do you not understand what IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION means. I'll help you. It means the tribulation is OVER.

If the tribulation is over why do you think I have Jesus coming in the middle of the tribulation?

Constant false conclusions by you. It's never ending.

Here's something we can agree on. He repeatedly misrepresents what others believe and then claims that he has refuted their beliefs. No, he has refuted his imaginary straw man's beliefs which means nothing.

 

[The Light]

Here's something we can agree on. He repeatedly misrepresents what others believe and then claims that he has refuted their beliefs. No, he has refuted his imaginary straw man's beliefs which means nothing.

That's about the size of it.

 

[The Light]

Agree, other than the one year wrath of God thing (we don't need to go into that again, so please don't bother).

These discussions become pointless when people use different definitions for terms such as "tribulation". The tribulation that occurs before Jesus returns relates to persecution, a mass falling away from the faith and increased deception and wickedness. Not God's wrath. So, unless we're on the same page with the terms we're using, any discussion about pre-trib vs. post-trib is meaningless since each person is not even talking about the same thing when referring to tribulation. Clearly, the wrath doesn't come or isn't at hand until the sixth seal, but people have it occurring somehow before that. No, both Jesus and Revelation 6:12-17 make it clear that the wrath comes after the tribulation of those days.

True. But doesn't that make you post wrath instead of post trib.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

True. But doesn't that make you post wrath instead of post trib.

No. Why are you asking me that? I told you that I agree that the tribulation of those days is not God's wrath and I believe Jesus returns after the tribulation of those days as He said Himself in Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27). How does that make me post-wrath? It makes me post-trib with the understanding that the trib is not God's wrath.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Please show any post that I have ever made where I have said that Jesus does not come in power and glory in Revelation 19.

You are the one that seems to be denying that Jesus comes in power and glory in Rev 14.


Again. Another false conclusion. Do you not understand what IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION means. I'll help you. It means the tribulation is OVER.

If the tribulation is over why do you think I have Jesus coming in the middle of the tribulation?

Constant false conclusions by you. It's never ending.


The second coming occurs at the 6th IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBUALTION and BEFORE the 7th seal wrath of God.

I'm just reading what the scripture says. I'm not sure why you cannot grasp the FACT that the tribulation of those days, which is the Great Tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Are you unable to understand that the signs of the sun, moon and stars tells you that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal, and Jesus returns for a harvest?

Do you not understand there is a great multitude in heaven before the 7th seal is opened? Do you not understand that the great multitude is in heaven during the trumpets and vials of wrath? Do you not understand the great multitude is at the marriage supper of the Lamb? After this the armies of Heaven follow Jesus to Armageddon.

All you have to do is read what it says.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

There is your impossible hurdle.
Yes just read what it says.
Again...when does Jesus come in power and great glory????
When is that????

It is impossile to make your model fit that.
100% impossile.

hint ...ONLY ONE PLACE...rev 19.
only one place
Now you see the folly in mismatching Mat 24;29 to ANTYTHING but rev19.....which is post wrath.

 

[The Light]

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

There is your impossible hurdle.
Yes just read what it says.
Again...when does Jesus come in power and great glory????
When is that????

It is impossile to make your model fit that.
100% impossile.

hint ...ONLY ONE PLACE...rev 19.
only one place
Now you see the folly in mismatching Mat 24;29 to ANTYTHING but rev19.....which is post wrath.

What are you talking about..........impossible hurdle?

The sun and moon are darkened, and the stars fall from heaven AT THE 6TH SEAL.

Revelation 19 happens AT THE END OF THE 7TH SEAL.

The only one with an impossible hurdle is you.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 

[The Light]

No. Why are you asking me that? I told you that I agree that the tribulation of those days is not God's wrath and I believe Jesus returns after the tribulation of those days as He said Himself in Matthew 24:29-31 (Mark 13:24-27). How does that make me post-wrath? It makes me post-trib with the understanding that the trib is not God's wrath.

To me the 7th seal is God's wrath. The 7th seal is the 7 trumpets and 7 vials of wrath.

What is the 7th seal to you?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

To me the 7th seal is God's wrath. The 7th seal is the 7 trumpets and 7 vials of wrath.

What is the 7th seal to you?

I have told you that already several times. I believe that the seals, trumpets and vials are parallel to each other. I believe there is silence in heaven at the 7th seal because heaven is empty at that point as Jesus, the souls of the dead in Christ, and Christ's angels have all left heaven at that point. At that time the dead in Christ are resurrected and united with their souls and they, together with those who are alive and remain, are caught up to meet the Lord in the air and then He then takes vengeance on all unbelievers (1 Thess 4:14-5:3, 2 Thess 1:7-10).

 

[The Light]

I have told you that already several times. I believe that the seals, trumpets and vials are parallel to each other. I believe there is silence in heaven at the 7th seal because heaven is empty at that point as Jesus, the souls of the dead in Christ, and Christ's angels have all left heaven at that point. At that time the dead in Christ are resurrected and united with their souls and they, together with those who are alive and remain, are caught up to meet the Lord in the air and then He then takes vengeance on all unbelievers (1 Thess 4:14-5:3, 2 Thess 1:7-10).

Sorry. I can't even think in those terms since the seals occur in order.

I just can't compute that.

Additionally, I don't see how you can separate tribulation from wrath in that scenario.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sorry. I can't even think in those terms since the seals occur in order.

I believe the seals occur in order, too. I just happen to believe that while the seals are happening in order, the trumpets and vials are happening concurrently.

I just can't compute that.

Oh well. Yet, you have said before you see parallels in the book, haven't you? If so, I don't see why you can't even fathom how the seals, trumpets and vials could be parallel to each other.

Additionally, I don't see how you can separate tribulation from wrath in that scenario.

I don't know what you mean by that. You don't think Jesus's wrath comes down right after the tribulation? I don't see how you can believe that Jesus comes a third time after He comes after the tribulation of those days (after His second coming of Matthew 24:29-31). That makes no sense to me at all. So, let's just agree to disagree then. We've discussed this at length and still disagree. So be it. We likely will never agree on this. There's no sense just repeating ourselves over and over at this point.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What are you talking about..........impossible hurdle?

The sun and moon are darkened, and the stars fall from heaven AT THE 6TH SEAL.

Revelation 19 happens AT THE END OF THE 7TH SEAL.

The only one with an impossible hurdle is you.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Nope nope nope.
The impossible hurdle, which you've already been shown many times, is that there is only one place Jesus returns in power and great glory.
that coming is in revelation. 19.
And I believe it's why you need acts Chapter one changed into a different "like manner" than what is demonstrated to the apostles.
But it gets worse, because Jesus determined and declared that the last half of the seven year tribulation period is the great tribulation.

You have to ask yourself why Jesus invoked Daniel chapter 9.
.
And the Holy Spirit added to that "let the reader understand."
.
So we are commanded to unpack daniel by the holy spirit.
Daniel 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

See that?
You have the 7 YEARS of tribulation and at the halfway part the AC enters the Holy place, And Presents an idol which desecrates the holy Of holies.
I think what you've done is, you have formulated a model, and because you skip Daniels last week of 7 years you have just
Ascribed meaning where there is none.
The AC breaks the covenant in the middle of the covenant.
Jesus Said " WHEN YOU SEE THE AC ENTER THE TEMPLE....."
WHEN?
IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK ( 7 YR TRIB PERIOD OF TIME).

Plus the FACT that your model has Jesus coming in Rev 14: 14 in an OPPOSITE setting.
Rev 14:14 is a harvest ONLY. (no power and great glory).
However Matt 24 has Jesus coming as a powerful king and in Glory.
Two completely different settings.
IMPOSSIBLE to reconcile.
Not trying to be mean, but your model is not biblical and poorly thought out.
In fact, that model you adhere to, has you changing act 1 " like manner" to fit your model.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nope nope nope.
The impossible hurdle, which you've already been shown many times, is that there is only one place Jesus returns in power and great glory.
that coming is in revelation. 19.
And I believe it's why you need acts Chapter one changed into a different "like manner" than what is demonstrated to the apostles.
But it gets worse, because Jesus determined and declared that the last half of the seven year tribulation period is the great tribulation.

You have to ask yourself why Jesus invoked Daniel chapter 9.
.
And the Holy Spirit added to that "let the reader understand."
.
So we are commanded to unpack daniel by the holy spirit.
Daniel 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

See that?
You have the 7 YEARS of tribulation and at the halfway part the AC enters the Holy place, And Presents an idol which desecrates the holy Of holies.
I think what you've done is, you have formulated a model, and because you skip Daniels last week of 7 years you have just
Ascribed meaning where there is none.
The AC breaks the covenant in the middle of the covenant.
Jesus Said " WHEN YOU SEE THE AC ENTER THE TEMPLE....."
WHEN?
IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK ( 7 YR TRIB PERIOD OF TIME).

What holy place are you talking about here exactly? And what will make it holy?

Plus the FACT that your model has Jesus coming in Rev 14: 14 in an OPPOSITE setting.
Rev 14:14 is a harvest ONLY. (no power and great glory).
However Matt 24 has Jesus coming as a powerful king and in Glory.
Two completely different settings.

Where does Revelation 14:14 say He is not coming in power and great glory there? Or are you just assuming that just because it doesn't explicitly mention that? It does mention that He has a crown of gold on His head at that time. I would say that represents power and glory.

 

[The Light]

Nope nope nope.
The impossible hurdle, which you've already been shown many times, is that there is only one place Jesus returns in power and great glory.
that coming is in revelation. 19.

Jesus returns at the 6th seal in power and glory as evidenced by the signs of the sun, moon and stars which occur at the 6th seal and in Matthew 24. There is no evidence that the signs of the sun, moon and stars take place in Revelation 19 which occurs in the 7th seal.

Say all you want. The Biblical evidence shows that Jesus returns for a harvest at the 6th seal, immediately after the tribulation and before the wrath of God. Those raptured go to heaven as we see in Rev 7, Rev 15 and Rev 19 and remain there during the one-year wrath of God.

And I believe it's why you need acts Chapter one changed into a different "like manner" than what is demonstrated to the apostles.

I have never anyone draw so many false conclusions. It's a constant barrage of false accusations.

Why do claim I need Acts 1 changed? I don't. You never change scripture. Acts 1 does occur at either rapture. Jesus REMAINS IN THE CLOUDS.
He returns in like manner after Armageddon when He sets His feet on the mount of Olives.

But it gets worse, because Jesus determined and declared that the last half of the seven year tribulation period is the great tribulation.

Please post the verse where Jesus declared that the last half of the 7 year tribulation is the great tribulation.

I can post a verse that shows that the great tribulation begins in the middle of the week, but I can't find anything that says that world is in a 7 year tribulation.

You have to ask yourself why Jesus invoked Daniel chapter 9.
.
And the Holy Spirit added to that "let the reader understand."
.
So we are commanded to unpack daniel by the holy spirit.
Daniel 9
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

There is a 7 year period that begins when a covenant with many is made. In the middle of the week the AOD is set up and from that time there are 1335 days...............But the great tribulation will be cut short.

See that?
You have the 7 YEARS of tribulation and at the halfway part the AC enters the Holy place, And Presents an idol which desecrates the holy Of holies.
I think what you've done is, you have formulated a model, and because you skip Daniels last week of 7 years you have just
Ascribed meaning where there is none.

No. I don't see 7 years of tribulation for the world. I see a 7 year period of time for Israel that will begin when a covenant with many is made. I see the great tribulation begins in the midst of that week when the AOD is set up.

The AC breaks the covenant in the middle of the covenant.
Jesus Said " WHEN YOU SEE THE AC ENTER THE TEMPLE....."
WHEN?
IN THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK ( 7 YR TRIB PERIOD OF TIME).

Exactly. 7 year period of time. I don't see a 7 year tribulation in the world. I see a 70th week of Daniel which is about the people of Daniel.

Plus the FACT that your model has Jesus coming in Rev 14: 14 in an OPPOSITE setting.
Rev 14:14 is a harvest ONLY. (no power and great glory).

Here we go again.

The coming of Jesus in Revelation 14:14 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. When Jesus shows up for the harvest and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth..............what do the kings of the earth say? They are hiding because Jesus come in power and glory at the 6th seal.........for a harvest..........as marked by signs of the sun, moon and stars THAT YOU CANNOT SEE NO MATTER HOW BIG I MAKE THE TEXT.

Revelation 6
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

However Matt 24 has Jesus coming as a powerful king and in Glory.

However, the coming of Jesus in Matt 24 occurs at the 6th seal and not in Revelation 19

Two completely different settings.
IMPOSSIBLE to reconcile.

Exactly. There are no signs of the sun, moon and stars in Revelation 19, but there are at the 6th seal. Additionally, Jesus comes at the 6th seal in Matthew 24 as evidenced by the signs of the sun, moon and stars, but Revelation 19 occurs in the 7th seal.

Therefore, Jesus comes in power and glory at the sixth seal for a harvest.

And don't start your false accusations and claim I am saying that Jesus is not in power and glory in Rev 19.

Whenever Jesus shows up with His angels it will be in power and glory. Whether it's at the 6 seal after the tribulation or in the 7th seal at the end of wrath.

Not trying to be mean, but your model is not biblical and poorly thought out.
In fact, that model you adhere to, has you changing act 1 " like manner" to fit your model.

No sweat. However, since you continually accuse me of things that I am not saying, I'm pretty sure you don't understand what I believe.