Miscellaneous observations on the Pre Trib Rapture

[tailgator]

Exactly Jerusalem. And Jerusalem is not Babylon as you claim.

Where do I say anyone is lying. I'm saying your claims are wrong according to the scriptures. You claim that Jerusalem is Babylon and yet ignore all the scriptural evidence that says it is not.


I'm saying that you draw incorrect conclusions based on part of scripture.

Isaiah 13

18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.

19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

Why not just realize that you are in error? Isaiah says that when the judgement comes during the day of the Lord that Babylon will NEVER be inhabited again. FOREVER. If Jerusalem is Babylon how can this be true?

You just skip past the FACTS of scripture and draw a conclusion that is totally incorrect. Aren't you seeking the truth? It's obvious that you are incorrect when we read the rest of Zechariah 14. Why did you stop reading?

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Plain as day the scripture says Babylon will never inhabited after judgement comes. And plain as day it says all nations that came against Jerusalem will come every year to worship the king.

Babylon is not Jerusalem...............based on scriptural FACTS.

Jerusalem is the mother of apostate Israel which(apostasy) will never be dwelt in again.

After Babylon is destroyed,Christs kingdom of Zion is founded in Jerusalem.But the king of babylon Apostate Israel )is destroyed first.The antichrist netanyahu will not be reigning with Christ.

Isaiah 14
29 Rejoice not thou, whole Palestina, because the rod of him that smote thee is broken: for out of the serpent's root shall come forth a cockatrice, and his fruit shall be a fiery flying serpent.

30 And the firstborn of the poor shall feed, and the needy shall lie down in safety: and I will kill thy root with famine, and he shall slay thy remnant.

31 Howl, O gate; cry, O city; thou, whole Palestina, art dissolved: for there shall come from the north a smoke, and none shall be alone in his appointed times.

32 What shall one then answer the messengers of the nation? That the Lord hath founded Zion, and the poor of his people shall trust in it.



Why do you ignore the fact that God's chosen people Israel are in Babylon?

Revelation 18
4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

 

[tailgator]

Exactly Jerusalem. And Jerusalem is not Babylon as you claim.

Where do I say anyone is lying. I'm saying your claims are wrong according to the scriptures. You claim that Jerusalem is Babylon and yet ignore all the scriptural evidence that says it is not.


I'm saying that you draw incorrect conclusions based on part of scripture.

Isaiah 13

18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eyes shall not spare children.

19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

Why not just realize that you are in error? Isaiah says that when the judgement comes during the day of the Lord that Babylon will NEVER be inhabited again. FOREVER. If Jerusalem is Babylon how can this be true?

You just skip past the FACTS of scripture and draw a conclusion that is totally incorrect. Aren't you seeking the truth? It's obvious that you are incorrect when we read the rest of Zechariah 14. Why did you stop reading?

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Plain as day the scripture says Babylon will never inhabited after judgement comes. And plain as day it says all nations that came against Jerusalem will come every year to worship the king.

Babylon is not Jerusalem...............based on scriptural FACTS.

Do you agree the Medes will be in Jerusalem on the day of the Lord ransacking the houses and raping the women or do you claim Zechariah is wrong and all nations including the Medes are not in Jerusalem on the day of the Lord?

Zech 14
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 

[The Light]

Do you agree the Medes will be in Jerusalem on the day of the Lord ransacking the houses and raping the women or do you claim Zechariah is wrong and all nations including the Medes are not in Jerusalem on the day of the Lord?

Zech 14
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

There is no way to know whether the Medes will be in Jerusalem or not. Did you not read the scripture?

 

[The Light]

Jerusalem is the mother of apostate Israel which(apostasy) will never be dwelt in again.

You seem to ignore what is written in scripture

Isaiah 13
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

Somehow you dream up that is not talking about the land of the Chaldeans, even though it is clearly written. Then you claim it represents apostasy. Wow. Is an Arabian pitching a tent in Babylon apostasy?

After Babylon is destroyed,Christs kingdom of Zion is founded in Jerusalem.But the king of babylon Apostate Israel )is destroyed first.The antichrist netanyahu will not be reigning with Christ.

Netanyahu is not the king of Babylon. Nimrod is the king of Babylon. Why do the fir trees rejoice when the king of Babylon is laid down. No feller comes against them. Why does the feller come against the fir trees?

Jeremiah 10
2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

You are just running around making things up based on part of scripture. Then you ignore the scriptures that say you are wrong.

 

[tailgator]

There is no way to know whether the Medes will be in Jerusalem or not. Did you not read the scripture?

I read the scripture that says All nations come against Jerusalem.

You don't know if the Medes would be included in ALL nations?Seriously?


14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

 

[tailgator]

You seem to ignore what is written in scripture

Isaiah 13
19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.

20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

Somehow you dream up that is not talking about the land of the Chaldeans, even though it is clearly written. Then you claim it represents apostasy. Wow. Is an Arabian pitching a tent in Babylon apostasy?





Netanyahu is not the king of Babylon. Nimrod is the king of Babylon. Why do the fir trees rejoice when the king of Babylon is laid down. No feller comes against them. Why does the feller come against the fir trees?

Jeremiah 10
2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

You are just running around making things up based on part of scripture. Then you ignore the scriptures that say you are wrong.

In the meantime,netanyahu continues to smite the nations with his rod.

Tell me this,can you explain why the Lord fights against and destroys the kings of the nations which attack Babylon in revelation?


Zech 14
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

 

[tailgator]

I see nothing in these verses that refer to Jerusalem. You might start by realizing that the King of Babylon is Nimrod. The Assyrian is Nimrod. They are not Benjamin Netanyahu.

Additionally, the judgement against Babylon is against the land of Chaldeans. It is the Medes, the people without a country that come against the land of Chaldeans.................not all nations. You want to know when all nations came against Babylon. That was Gulf War I. You want to know when a great nation came against Babylon. That was Gulf war two. The Medes will come against Babylon.......the land of the Chaldeans in the Day of the Lord.

You are dreaming these thing up.......such the cedars of Lebanon are people and not trees. You are making this up to fit what you want it to fit. Why not take the scripture and believe what it says. The cedars of Lebanon and the fir trees rejoice when Nimrod the king of Babylon is laid down.

There is not a chance in China that Jerusalem is Babylon. Does Jerusalem carry a gold cup in her hand. Does Jerusalem dress in purple and scarlet or BLUE, purple and scarlet? Has Jerusalem made the nations rich?

Above you say the Medes have no country.

Why do you believe the Medes in Iran have no country?Why do you believe Iran is not a country,?
The Medes lived in the area where Iran capital city Tehran is,and yet you say they do not have a country.


Iranian

The Medes were an ancient Iranian people and one of the ancestors of modern Kurdish people who lived in the northwestern portions of present-day Iran.


(kings of the Medes,)

Jerimiah 51:11
Sharpen the arrows, take up the shields! The LORD has stirred up the kings of the Medes, because his purpose is to destroy Babylon. The LORD will take vengeance, vengeance for his temple.



Kings have kingdoms,No?

 

[soberxp]

"I remember seeing a rapture-themed advertisement where an office worker was sitting at his desk, and suddenly the rapture occurred. He was lifted up but ended up hitting the ceiling."

I remember it was an Intel ad.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Rev 14:14 is the second coming. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper.

After the marriage supper the armies of heaven return on white horses. Biblical FACT.

No.
It is Jewish main harvest.TO HEAVEN
Nowhere in Rev 14:14 does Jesus touch the earth.
In fact, Rev 19 on the white horses,( that 100% testifies against your timeline), is without question, the second coming to the great battle....FROM HEAVEN WITH THE SAINTS.
( MAT 24)

 

[The Light]

No.
It is Jewish main harvest.TO HEAVEN
Nowhere in Rev 14:14 does Jesus touch the earth.

Let me repeat.

Rev 14:14 is the second coming. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper.

You say........Nowhere in Rev 14:14 does Jesus touch the earth.

Brother, I have never had so much trouble communicating with someone in my life. I don't know how to make things any clearer. I have never said Jesus touches the earth in Rev 14:14. He remains in the clouds.

You get so thrown off when I say the second coming occurs at the 6th seal. Then your mind just shuts down. You see the second coming as Jesus returning to the earth. The second coming is when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. That event occurs at the 6th seal. That event is also Revelation 14:14 when Jesus comes for a harvest and remains in the clouds.

I don't understand why you are not grasping what I am saying.

In fact, Rev 19 on the white horses,( that 100% testifies against your timeline), is without question, the second coming to the great battle....FROM HEAVEN WITH THE SAINTS.
( MAT 24)

No. The second coming is when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. That occurs at the 6th seal. This is the same event as the coming of Jesus for a harvest in Revelation 14. It is the Jews, those of the twelve tribes across the earth that are harvested from the earth at the 6th seal which is the coming of Jesus in Rev 14.

All return to heaven for the marriage supper.

After the marriage supper the armies of heaven come for Armageddon.......and then Jesus sets His feet on the mount of Olives.

 

[MA2444]

You get so thrown off when I say the second coming occurs at the 6th seal.

My understanding is that the seventh seal being opened starts the last 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation.

 

[The Light]

My understanding is that the seventh seal being opened starts the last 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation.

This is not correct.

The seventh seal has nothing to do with the great tribulation. The tribulation is over when the 6th seal is opened. The 7th seal is the wrath of God.

I've posted these verses many, many, many, many times. Look at the following verses.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

From the verses above you should be able to conclude that the tribulation is over when the sun and moon are darked and the stars fall from heaven. You should also be able to conclude that Jesus returns for the gathering from heaven and earth which is a harvest or rapture.

Now look at the verses below.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

From the verses in Revelation 6, the sixth seal is opened when the sun and moon are darked and the stars fall from heaven.

These verses tell us that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The tribulation is when Christians are killed for their faith. The 7th seal is the wrath of God. The wrath of God is the Day of the Lord when Gods vengeance comes on the earth.

Tribulation and wrath are not the same thing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is not correct.

The seventh seal has nothing to do with the great tribulation. The tribulation is over when the 6th seal is opened. The 7th seal is the wrath of God.

I've posted these verses many, many, many, many times. Look at the following verses.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

From the verses above you should be able to conclude that the tribulation is over when the sun and moon are darked and the stars fall from heaven. You should also be able to conclude that Jesus returns for the gathering from heaven and earth which is a harvest or rapture.

Now look at the verses below.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

From the verses in Revelation 6, the sixth seal is opened when the sun and moon are darked and the stars fall from heaven.

These verses tell us that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The tribulation is when Christians are killed for their faith. The 7th seal is the wrath of God. The wrath of God is the Day of the Lord when Gods vengeance comes on the earth.

Tribulation and wrath are not the same thing.

You might be surprised by this, but I actually agree with everything you said here. We may not agree on all of the details of what the tribulation entails and what the wrath of God entails and how long it lasts, but I do agree with everything you said here.

 

[The Light]

You might be surprised by this, but I actually agree with everything you said here. We may not agree on all of the details of what the tribulation entails and what the wrath of God entails and how long it lasts, but I do agree with everything you said here.

No, I'm not at all surprised that you agree with what I said, as it is correct as proven by the Word of God. What surprises me is that you do not agree with me far more often.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, I'm not at all surprised that you agree with what I said, as it is correct as proven by the Word of God.

But, we normally disagree on things, so that's why I thought you might be surprised.

What surprises me is that you do not agree with me far more often.

LOL. You should be agreeing with me more often.

 

[MA2444]

This is not correct.

The seventh seal has nothing to do with the great tribulation. The tribulation is over when the 6th seal is opened. The 7th seal is the wrath of God.

I've posted these verses many, many, many, many times. Look at the following verses.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

From the verses above you should be able to conclude that the tribulation is over when the sun and moon are darked and the stars fall from heaven. You should also be able to conclude that Jesus returns for the gathering from heaven and earth which is a harvest or rapture.

Now look at the verses below.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

From the verses in Revelation 6, the sixth seal is opened when the sun and moon are darked and the stars fall from heaven.

These verses tell us that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The tribulation is when Christians are killed for their faith. The 7th seal is the wrath of God. The wrath of God is the Day of the Lord when Gods vengeance comes on the earth.

Tribulation and wrath are not the same thing.

Oh sorry, I did mean the seventh bowl of wrath.

And tribulation is the wrath of God.

 

[The Light]

Oh sorry, I did mean the seventh bowl of wrath.

And tribulation is the wrath of God.

How can tribulation be the wrath of God when the tribulation is over at the 6th seal and the wrath of God is the 7th seal???????????????

 

[MA2444]

How can tribulation be the wrath of God when the tribulation is over at the 6th seal and the wrath of God is the 7th seal???????????????

The only thing I can think of is, we have slightly different doctrines?

 

[The Light]

The only thing I can think of is, we have slightly different doctrines?

We do, but only because you are not understanding what you are reading.

The main reason is you start off on the wrong foot. You.........along with most other believers think that the verses below happen in Revelation 19. God gives us a roadmap which says the below verses occur at the 6th seal. That means the tribulation is over at the 6th seal

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

All I can show you is the sun and moon being darked and stars falling from heaven occur at the 6th seal. Until you understand the timing that God gives, you will not understand. At least you have figured out there is a pretribulation rapture.

 

[rebuilder 454]

We do, but only because you are not understanding what you are reading.

The main reason is you start off on the wrong foot. You.........along with most other believers think that the verses below happen in Revelation 19. God gives us a roadmap which says the below verses occur at the 6th seal. That means the tribulation is over at the 6th seal

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

All I can show you is the sun and moon being darked and stars falling from heaven occur at the 6th seal. Until you understand the timing that God gives, you will not understand. At least you have figured out there is a pretribulation rapture.

Well if you leave out Daniel then you can do what you do.
You make Jesus coming in power and great Glory into Jesus coming in Rev 14.
I suppose Rev 19 is not Jesus coming in power and great glory.