The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[WPM]

Oh boy. Here we go. Did I say anything about a second chance?

And you are wrong about the tribulation period.

LOL. Again, this is all you Pretribbers have: personal opinion. You cannot bring anything of evidential worth to the table because it does not exist. You all seem scared to identify your real beliefs because it will be quickly exposed.

So, how long is your trib?

 

[The Light]

The 70th week is long fulfilled. You have nothing there. I suspect you know that. History shows that the 490 years were linear, congruent and sequential. Those of us that take 490 years to mean exactly that do not have to prove that it is harmonious; we just have to accept what it states.

I do accept it. After 69 weeks cutoff. That leaves a week or 7 years.

We take it literally (1) because it happened literally, (2) there is no command to decapitate it and project it into the unknown. Seven multiplied by seventy comes to 490 cohesive unitary years, not 2,500 broken up years and counting. The clincher is: there is no gap mentioned in the prophecy so there is no need or warrant to insert one in there.

And then that nonsense that has been passed down falls apart when we continue reading.

Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Let’s use an illustration. If you were directed to go to the next state and told and told it was exactly a 490-mile journey (right down to the very yard). You were told that in-between the starting point and your destination you would pass two important landmarks, the first after 49 miles, which was accurate to the very yard. The next was a further 434 miles ahead (bringing your journey to 483 miles in total), which also occurred right down to the very yard. The journey's end would be a final 7 miles down the road from your second landmark, making your total journey 490 miles. Exactly half way between 483 miles and 490 (486 ½ miles) you would witness a monumental landmark that would surpass anything you have ever seen. How would you then feel if you were told when you hit the second landmark that your final location was still a possible 2,000+ miles down the road with NO exact finishing point? Such an idea would be totally unthinkable in the natural, but unprecedented in God's economy. God always fulfils His promises.

Why use a concocted example that is not factual when we have the scripture?

No Pretribber will address my simple query. That is because their reasoning is nonsensical.

We have the scripture. We don't need to dream up things that have nothing to do with the scripture which is the Word of God.

Can you give me another example in Scripture of such a decapitation of a harmonious time-period

Or we can just go by what is written. You want to pretend that the scripture doesn't say after 69 weeks.............cut off. You say no decapitation but the scripture says.............Cut Off. And yet you want to ignore it.

- like where God says 7 days and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 days, or 7 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 7 years, or 70 years and He didn't mean a linear, congruent and sequential 70 years? Anything?

Sure, I got something. Sixty nine weeks and then CUT OFF.

Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?

Where is the Christian Church mentioned in Daniel 9

Where is the second coming of Christ mentioned and Daniel 9?

How about Daniel 1?

Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?

Where is the flat earth theory that you claim, mentioned in Daniel 9

 

[WPM]

I do accept it. After 69 weeks cutoff. That leaves a week or 7 years.


And then that nonsense that has been passed down falls apart when we continue reading.

Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Why use a concocted example that is not factual when we have the scripture?


We have the scripture. We don't need to dream up things that have nothing to do with the scripture which is the Word of God.


Or we can just go by what is written. You want to pretend that the scripture doesn't say after 69 weeks.............cut off. You say no decapitation but the scripture says.............Cut Off. And yet you want to ignore it.



Sure, I got something. Sixty nine weeks and then CUT OFF.

Where is the Christian Church mentioned in Daniel 9


How about Daniel 1?


Where is the flat earth theory that you claim, mentioned in Daniel 9

It is amazing the ignorance of Pretribbers when it comes to simple basic biblical language. They just parrot what they have been taught without recognizing the absurdity of the position. Pretribs literally butcher the text - excuse the pun. It is not the 70 weeks that is "cut off" it is the Messiah.

Daniel 9:25-26 says, “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.”

 

[WPM]

Where is the flat earth theory that you claim, mentioned in Daniel 9

LOL. You cannot even admit how long your trib is. What are you scared of?

 

[The Light]

It is amazing the ignorance of Pretribbers when it comes to simple basic biblical language. They just parrot what they have been taught without recognizing the absurdity of the position. Pretribs literally butcher the text - excuse the pun. It is not the 70 weeks that is "cut off" it is the Messiah.

Daniel 9:25-26 says, “Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.”

After 69 weeks. You want to pretend those words CUT OFF aren't in the texr

 

[Brakelite]

Hmmm, I do have thise notes handy, lol. Ok I'll do it.

You see this so called rapture debate that is so vehemently talked down against has been going on for a long time, because the enemy knows the destruction it will cause to His kingdom and lies when more and more people realize the real truth. So the evil spirits go around making trolls, and it's easy to spot trolls now. They pick a certain subject to talk down on and wont leave it alone. So in light of this debate I have been able to make a list of specific rapture verses and specific 2nd Coming verses.

How about those PreTrib Rapture verses first shall we?

Rapture verses, But Don't Believe Me! Check them for yourself and you can see.

John 14: 1-3
1 Corinthians 15:1-53
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
1 Corinthians 1:7-8
1 Corinthians 15:21-23
Phillipians 3:20-21
Romans 8:19
Colossians 3:4
1 Thessalonians 1:10
1 Thessalonians 2:19
1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, 23
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1 Timothy 6:14
Hebrews 9:28
James 5:7-9
1 Peter 1:7, 13
1 John 2:28
1 John 3:2
Jude 21
Revelation 2:-25
Revelation 3:10

I may even have a few others that didnt make it on this list, but I'm trying. So ok now! Here is your sriptural proof of a pretrib rapture, straight from the Book of Truth, the Bible. And again, But don't Believe me! Go read these for yourself and prayerfully meditate upon them and ask the Holy Spirit for help understanding it and you'll have half the game over right there. I challenge you Davey to read these for yourself. You have not swayed my faith in this, nor can you because I know the truth in the very core of my being now because the Lord God got tired of hearing me beg for wisdom and understanding and so gave it to me....and a lot more because that's who He is! But I can't get your wisdom and understanding for you, you must do that for yourself, and if all you do is do a drive by snarky comment in response without addressing the material as I have laid out....you will look like a fool to the world so...time to go do your Homework!

Scripture does say that God gives liberally to all those who ask for wisdom, just sayin'

Not one of those scriptures says anything about Christians being taken away before the tribulation. Not one.

 

[The Light]

LOL. You cannot even admit how long your trib is. What are you scared of?

You have spent so much time telling me I believe in a 7 year tribulation that I kind of will miss these false accusations if I tell you. How about I tell you the wrath of God is one year and the wrath of God and the tribulation are not in the same timeframe.

 

[covenantee]

Rapture Wimpism

Any student of Scripture with even a cursory knowledge of the NT Church knows that tribulation in the form of persecution, suffering, and death has been the lot of the Church ever since its birth. From its persecution at the hands of the Jews, to that under the Roman emperors and empires, to that today under Islam and other ideologies; the Church's experience with tribulation has been unrelenting, and its death toll over the millennia is counted in the tens of millions.

In the NT, we see in the book of Acts a complete account of how the disciples and Christ's followers were hated and persecuted as Jesus had predicted (Matthew 24:9). In Acts 4: "And they laid hands on them [Peter and John], and put them in prison" (verse 3). In Acts 5, they were "beaten" (verse 40). As they departed from the "council", they rejoiced "that they were counted worthy to suffer for his name"(verse 41). In Acts 7, Stephen was killed for his stand (verses 54-60). In Acts 8:1 "There was a great persecution against the church." In Acts 16, Paul and Silas were beaten and cast into prison. In Acts 21, persecution resulted in Paul being beaten, and brought before rulers, before whom he testified (Acts 22). In Acts 22:19 we read that Paul confessed that prior to his conversion, he had "imprisoned and beaten in every synagogue" those who believed in Christ.

There was, and is, no lack of tribulation for the NT Church.

But deplorably, we see today a generation of what can best be described as “rapture wimps.” This generation of North American believers, the most “molycoddled and milquetoast” in the history of the Christian Church, seems in large part to believe that it is also entitled to escape the trials and privations which have beset the historic Church, and to be “...carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease” as the beloved hymn “Am I a Soldier of the Cross” describes.

The following partial enumeration of NT tribulation references...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Acts 14:22
Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

2 Corinthians 1:4
Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

1 Thessalonians 3:4
For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Revelation 1:9
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

...makes it clear that there is no room for rapture wimps in the Christian Church. In solidarity with other believers in parts of the world who suffer tribulation even as we read this, we must be prepared to, as did and do these, “fight to win the prize and sail through bloody seas”, as we see the hymnwriter further pen.


Christ has promised...:

John 16:33
These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

...that we can be triumphant in Him even in the midst of tribulation. He promises us all of His grace and resources to make this a reality.

But the promise is only for those who refuse to be rapture wimps.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Your mistake is in rolling the rapture and 2nd coming into one event. There's little clues all over the place, but you fail to see them.

Jesus Himself comes for his Bride the church.
He sends His Angels to gather the remaining at the 2nd coming.
The rapture is secret.
The 2nd coming every eye will see him.

I could go on and on with the clues. All the scriptures have already been posted so go do your homework for yourself.

I don't think the Holy Spirit is playing a game of "clues." If you find the Bible dividing the Rapture and the 2nd Coming into more than one event, I haven't seen you produce a single Scripture yet.

"Clues" do not fill the need for what I demand as proof. I need "explicit doctrinal statements in Scripture" if I'm to believe something as doctrine. "Clues" are not "doctrine!" I want to believe in what the Holy Spirit teaches in explicit words, and not trust in a "treasure hunt" based on "clues."

The old testament is the new testament concealed.
The new testament is the old testament revealed.

Is that too much for you? Or you dont get it?

Of course I get that--I've heard that saying for years! None of this has a thing to do with the mystery of Christ present in the OT Scriptures. Obviously, Christ didn't come until the age of the NT began.

And just as in all things spiritual, certain truths are held back from unbelievers. They cannot see spiritual values if they choose to not live by them. This is true both OT and NT, both before Christ came in the words of the Law and also after Christ came in the words of Christ.

The mysteries of NT truth do not at all call for belief in irrational things to be taken on "blind faith." No, our faith is solidly based on the Rock, which are the truths about Christ. We put our faith in the Scriptural record of what he said and did, as well as on our own experience of the God the Scriptures testify to.

To believe in things just because it is said to be a mystery that is not stated is to set yourself up for error. To trust in a subjective revelation without Scriptural warrant, or based purely on "clues," is not the way God informs us of His will.

 

[Randy Kluth]

History? Were there printing presses for the common man to read the Bible through history? Who controlled the early Church. The Roman Catholics. What do they believe? They don't believe in or teach a rapture.

Catholics did indeed believe in 1 Thes 4--they just would not call it the "Rapture" in the sense Dispensationalists mean it. They don't believe in a secret, Pretribulational Rapture because it just isn't in the Scriptures. That's also why many traditional Protestant sects do not believe in it. That's also why I do not believe in it--it isn't in the Scriptures. If it was, it would've been a major eschatological system prior to 1830. But it wasn't.

I would characterize Christian eschatology in history to be much closer aligned with Amillennial Postribulationism. When Christ comes, the world ends. I'm not personally an Amillennial adherent, but I respect the position as a strong historical argument.

Formed in 325 AD the Roman Church was Christianity merged with the religion of Sol Invictus, the unconquerable sun. Do you think they were teaching the Bible? Do they teach the Bible today?

So you're a Catholic basher, and that's your basis for giving up on Postribulationism? But I thought you said Postrib is basically the "new kid on the block," and that Pretrib is the revered orthodox eschatological position in history? If I remember correctly, you're sort of unorthodox in your version of Pretribulationism?

What's the real truth? There is both a pretribulation and post tribulation rapture. There are two raptures. One like the days of Noah and one like the days of Lot. One the Lord Himself comes, and one He sends His angels. One at the trump of God and one at the last trump.

I couldn't care less what history teaches or who believes what or taught what. I care about what the Bible says.

The Bible says there are two raptures.

Well, be happy with what you believe. I think the Lord will straighten things out in His own time. He loves us, and may care more about what we believe on this subject in the future, when it more directly pertains to us?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Matthew 24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
....This is for the Jews, so they won't believe the resurrection of the beast of the sea whose tomb is in the desert, secret chamber.

The very fact you have to explain this indicates it is in question.
1) False Christs 1st appeared among Jewish believers in Jesus' time. But they continue to appear throughout the present age.
2) The Beast Kingdom afflicts believers from all nations. That's why the Great Multitude emerges out of the great tribulation at the end of the age. To think that Antichrist's object of persecution is strictly Jewish believers is absolutely ludicrous. Antichrist is trying to purge the world of Christianity, which is a world-wide religion!

When Jesus comes for His Church it will be in secret. He will not be seen on the earth, so this is a false concern.

That runs counter to Jesus' clear statement that he will not come until he is revealed to the world from heaven. This is not a secret coming, and it is based on Dan 7 where the Son of Man is revealed with the clouds to destroy the Antichrist and to establish God's Kingdom on earth. Again, this cannot be a secret coming!

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the second coming. This occurs at the 6th seal. It is the gathering from heaven and earth. Jesus remains in the clouds and sends His angels..........seen here.

I've answered this before. Many of the visions in the book of Revelation are prolepses, ie visions of the future as if they are happening now.

That's how visions sometimes are presented, as if the prophet sees God's Kingdom coming now when really, it is coming only at the consummation of the age. The seals, trumpets, and bowls are purely lists of grand finale events, not necessarily given to present a chronological sequence. Many of the visions will be fulfilled at the same time. They are given as lists for purposes of the narrative, but not to produce a strict timing sequence. In biblical prophecy, timing is God's domain.

LOL. I'm a post tribber that realized that it was not the Church being raptured at the 6th seal. Those raptured at the sixth seal are singing the song of Moses.

I realized there are two raptures. Tell me, who did I learn that from.

I have a difficult time discussing this subject with you because you identify with more than one school of prophecy. I'd say only you can say where you're learning things. But if what you're learning is an errant interpretation of the Bible, then you're not learning from the Holy Spirit, but from something else.

This is what I say to you brother. You have no idea the order of Revelation. You don't understand what you are reading.

From Revelation 4 through Revelation 16. Do you read that chronologically?

How many times do I have to tell you? Look up the word "prolepsis." When I learned the meaning of that word my whole view of the book of Revelation changed.

 

[jeffweeder]

After 69 weeks. You want to pretend those words CUT OFF aren't in the texr

You seem to pretend that "until Messiah being after 69 weeks" is not part of the text.

“Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself.”

We would be wise to listen to John Baptist as to what "until Messiah" means.

Jn 1
29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I and has priority over me, for He existed before me.’ 31 I did not recognize Him [as the Messiah]; but I came baptizing in water so that He would be [publicly] revealed to Israel.”

So, after 69 weeks Messiah arrives and is recognized as such, and in hindsight we know how long AFTER THE 69TH WEEK he was cut off.

He was not cut off the moment he arrived was he?

He accomplished the work the Father gave him to do.


John 3:16
“For God so [greatly] loved and dearly prized the world, that He [even] gave His [One and] only begotten Son, so that whoever believes and trusts in Him [as Savior] shall not perish, but have eternal life.

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation [that is, the atoning sacrifice, and the satisfying offering] for our sins [fulfilling God’s requirement for justice against sin and placating His wrath].


This =

24 “Seventy weeks [of years, or 490 years] have been decreed for your people and for your holy city (Jerusalem), to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make atonement (reconciliation) for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness (right-standing with God), to seal up vision and prophecy and prophet, and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

Done and accomplished after the 69th week in the 70th

 

[MA2444]

Don't know what you're talking about? You gave Scriptures without any explanation as to how you figure it is *explicit teaching.* Christians are not supposed to take your word for anything, but to responsibly check with Scriptures to see what *they* say.

I will repeat it forever. If you are to teach doctrine, you need the Holy Spirit to have taught this teaching as doctrine. That means it has to be stated explicitly and not received by some sort of mysterious "revelation," and read into parables and symbolisms, acting as if this constitutes real proof.

I'm not interested in childish language. This is an important element of Christian living, to be responsible with God's word. We can all make mistakes and be wrong. We just need to have the grit to put God's word ahead of ourselves.

Wow that probably the most reasonable thing that you've said in this thread. Toning it down some perhaps? Good. Thank you. I can tone it down too if you guys do. But i'm not perfect so when you guys start getting all snide in your comments, I can too. I dealt with a lot of people with your guys attitude and I got the game for it. You guys got the knack for bringing out the old man in me. If you'd rather see the new man in me just keep talking reasonable. Deal?

I did not say that pretrib is explicit teaching, you did just now. I said but dont believe me, read it for yourself and understand. Let the reader understand. I posted Proverbs 25:2 and linked it to what Paul said, behold I show you a mystery...it is the glory of kings to search out a matter that He has concealed from us. And yes, one does need the HS to understand the teaching. If the HS is too mysterious for you, I;m sorry you feel that way, but that's Him and who He is. All you have to do is to not read it carnally and open your heart to receive the truth. Is that so hard? it's not once you get used to it.

I'm not into childish language either, so let's set all that aside, shall we? Your right, we can all make mistakes. Even me. Even you. Even WPM. So when WPM and you guys talk the trash and say, we demolished them, we win blahblahblah, and it's clear that you have not, then I know that you guys dont read from the spirit, but from the flesh it becomes about "winning" and not about truth. We know that the flesh can't receive spiritual truths for they are spiritually discerned (that's scripture) so it behooves us all to set aside the silliness and have a real discussion.

 

[MA2444]

I'm not interested in childish language and insults. You asked the brother to give you insight as to a particular verse. And when I try to help you out, this is your response? I give you "too much?"

In the future, why not just figure out what you want to read into a passage before asking someone else to help you out with it?

I did not. I understand it. He said I was wrong about the context and meaning. I said how so? Did I get an answer? No, he wont answer that. So I got a little sarcastic with him.

If a guy has something in what he says and you guys want to bring it to his attention, you can say, brother you've made a mistake, let me tell you what the mistake was and what it really means. Anything wrong with that? You postribbers cant get on here and say, oh you made a mistake so that's proof that we are right. That's bunk! And a lie.

 

[MA2444]

This is what Jesus said about his Coming...

Matt 24.26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man."

Jesus said it, and we should be warned. We are *not* to accept any Pretribulational Coming of the Lord because it violates what Jesus warned about us here, which is a false eschatology that presents Christ as coming before his coming with the clouds.

He's talking about the 2nd coming. It's about verse 36(?) that He begins to speak on the rapture. It is clearly two events and I believe I can show that if you let me.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.../KJV

This is His people that He said He will come for.

Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.../KJV

The Lord Himself....He will send His Angels...so which one is it? Can you see where this (*could possibly*) mean it is two events and not one event? Honestly. If not why not?

There's lots more clues than this. I'll compile some for you while you chew on this.

 

[MA2444]

Jesus shouts to His people when He comes. (WAKE UP!) and they will wake up. The Angels come with the sound of a trumpet, hmmm.

During the rapture, there is a Translation of Believers.
During the 2nd coming, no Translation is involved.

Rapture: The Saints go to Heaven.
2nd coming: The Saints return with the Lord to the earth.

Rapture: is taught to be imminent, could be any moment.
2nd coming: is not imminent. It's 1260 days after the abomination of desolation.

Rapture: is before the day of wrath.
2nd coming: Concludes the day of wrath.

Rapture: He comes in the Air.
2nd coming: He comes to the earth!

Rapture: He comes FOR His bride.
2nd coming: He comes WITH His bride.

Rapture: Only the Saints see Him.
2nd coming: Every eye will see Him.

Rapture: The Tribulation begins.
2nd coming: The Millenium begins.

Rapture: No reference to Satan.
2nd coming: Satan is bound.

Now there is scriptures for all of these things. But I dont have to dig out the refrences for you, right? It's like you said yesterday, you know the scriptures very well, and said that WPM does too. So you have reall all of this before. Remember? I think you will.

That's off the top of my head but I'm sure there is more. But I'm still on my 1st cup of coffee right now, lol. So let this suffice for now and I'll get out my notes again later if you remain speaking reasonably. If you wont then there's no point, right?

 

[MA2444]

Dan 7.24 The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak against the Most High and oppress his holy people and try to change the set times and the laws. The holy people will be delivered into his hands for a time, times and half a time.
26 “‘But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’"

This indicates that the Son of Man, the Messiah, is coming from heaven to destroy the Man of Sin, the Antichrist, in order to establish God's Kingdom on earth and to save God's People. This is why the Apostle John called him "the Antichrist," and why Paul called him "the Man of Sin." It is also why the book of Revelation sees him as the Beast with 10 kings and the Beast being an individual who presides over them, opposing the coming Kingdom of Christ.

I dint reply yet to this part because I wanted to go re-read Daniel 7 to refresh myself in what it says. And you are correct, it is talking about the antichrist and the 2nd coming. But if the rapture doesnt happen until after the tribulation, why isnt it mentioned here?
Because it has already happened perhaps?

What about this?

Daniel 7:25-28
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

28 Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.../KJV

The end of the matter? How can that be if a rapture still has to happen? WHy wouldnt they mention the rapture if it dont happen until after the tribulation?

Because the rapture and the 2nd coming are two different events and at this point, the rapture has already taken place?

 

[MA2444]

Sorry. I don't claim there is a 7 year tribulation. However, there is a 70th week of Daniel but you won't know what that is.

You never have produced evidence of your flat earth belief found in scripture. What verse can you produce that backs up your flat earth claims?

I do claim that there is a 7year tribulation and I do have scriptures for it. A few of them at least. It is very clear that it last for a time, times and half a time. That's 3.5 years ad then the great tribulation which last for time, times and half a time, or 1260 days. That's 3.5 years also. 3 1/2 + 3 1/2= 7.

 

[MA2444]

You never have produced evidence of your flat earth belief found in scripture. What verse can you produce that backs up your flat earth claims?

The flat earthers can make a very good case for a flat earth. I read all that material they have and discussed it over and over. They almost had me believing it! But one day it hit me like a bolt of lightning, it cant be true! And I can prove it even without scripture.

We all like hearing people's testimony's right. I've heard thousands of testimonies over the years. Many times, they are taken up to heaven for various reasons. Many times people are taken up above the earth for various reasons.

Have you ever heard any of those testimonies? Taken up above the earth? I have, lots of them. Now if the earth was really really flat, that would be a big thing dont you think? It sure would be! And in all those testimonies of up above the earth, not one single person has ever said, hey the earth was flat when I was up there! That would sort of a big point for everyone to not say anything about! So the earth is not flat.

See? without scripture!
There are some scriptures though.

If I ever get taken up above the earth and the earth is flat, I'll let you Brothers & Sisters know!

 

[MA2444]

Sorry. I don't claim there is a 7 year tribulation. However, there is a 70th week of Daniel but you won't know what that is.

You never have produced evidence of your flat earth belief found in scripture. What verse can you produce that backs up your flat earth claims?

But we will know what that is.

The thing is, if you dont understand the Book of Daniel, then you wont understand Revelation. So he must not believe/read? the book of Daniel.