Revelation chapter 20 - Gog and Magog

[Earburner]

If you’re saying those under the altar at the fifth seal are the 144,000 and they are actually sealed when they are given the white robes, then yea, I can agree with that. I think the fifth seal takes place after the cross, prior to Pentecost.

Amen! Yes, the fifth seal took place after the cross, prior to Pentecost. They are of the symbolic 12,000 who were sealed out of each of the 12 tribes of Israel, being those who were of faith in waiting for the Promise to come.
Ever since Pentecost, there is now no difference between Jew and Gentile in God's eyes, all are equally guilty before Him. Therefore after Pentecost all of such who die in faith of Jesus' sacrifice, and are born again by His Holy Spirit, they shall be of the Great Multitude.

 

[ewq1938]

Amen! Yes, the fifth seal took place after the cross, prior to Pentecost. They are of the symbolic 12,000 who were sealed out of each of the 12 tribes of Israel, being those who were of faith in waiting for the Promise to come.
Ever since Pentecost, there is now no difference between Jew and Gentile in God's eyes, all are equally guilty before Him. Therefore after Pentecost all of such who die in faith of Jesus' sacrifice, and are born again by His Holy Spirit, they shall be of the Great Multitude.

The 144k are sealed by God just prior to the 6th trump trib. They are not the dead saints under the alter in the 5th seal because they are alive LONG after that seal was opened.

 

[Earburner]

The 144k are sealed by God just prior to the 6th trump trib. They are not the dead saints under the alter in the 5th seal because they are alive LONG after that seal was opened.

The book of Revelation is NOT to be read or understood chronologically by human wisdom, but rather spiritually, through the mind of Christ within us.
Please read and study all of 1 Cor. ch. 2.
Specifically: 1 Cor. 2:5, 13 and 16.

There are many denominationally taught professing Christians (Pastors, Bishops, Teachers, Evangelists, Missionaries, etc.), who have received the forgiveness for sin through the blood of Christ, but then  NEGLECT to understand HOW it is that all MUST walk/live/learn in Him through the Holy Spirit, which IS the mind of Christ.
2 Peter 1:10. 1 John 2:27.

For all who do not "make their calling and election sure", they are nothing more than an empty "vessel" (2 Cor. 2:4), thus "having A FORM of godliness, but denying the power thereof, from SUCH turn away".
2 Tim. 3:5

Through historical biblical knowledge, anyone can learn about Jesus through their human mind of "the natural man".

 

[Timtofly]

Now, if Gog and Magog do represent nations and peoples who have rejected God, THEN, I see a problem - and that problem is they would seem to have to be resurrected 2 times and be destroyed 3 times….. which makes no sense at all, and God always makes sense!

What is with the 2 resurrections? Humans call it birth, not resurrection. Will no one give birth, or be born during this thousand year period?

Gog and Magog would be considered the last few generations born in the last few hundred years, at the furthest point from Jerusalem, as after 800 years people will have spread to the last available land, the 4 corners of the earth.

These people have a natural birth. They were not even alive at the beginning of this thousand year kingdom of Jesus on the earth. The camp of the saints are the only ones resurrected after being beheaded years before the thousand years even started. There could be 20 to 30 generations in 900 years.

The Gog and Magog association is historical from the time of Alexander the Great. Look it up and and see for yourself. You are historical when it comes to the papacy, but strangely void of understanding of the historical people called Gog and Magog. They were uncivilized barbarians, perhaps even regenerate descendants of the ten northern tribes? Who knows? The Greeks looked down upon them even more than the current administration locking down on immigrants. The reason they may be so easily deceived, is because of disassociation from the central government being so far removed by distance, time, and dozens of generations removed from those resurrected hundreds of years prior.

Ezekiel could already be fulfilled as much as we have been disassociated from the original people, Ezekiel was referencing. People can make up their own imagined spiritual applications all they want disregarding the actual history.

The thousand year reign of Christ will have it's own unique history that could be so foreign to our current understanding of life, you all would deny it even possible.

For one thing, there will be none of Adam's offspring in the Millennial Kingdom. Obviously the people will have been resurrected or redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical bodies. Read 2 Corinthians 5:1.

No one in the Millennium will take sin and death with them, unless Paul lied about being changed and John lied about being resurrected. But those at the end, in Revelation 20:8-9, are not the first generation. They will be the last few generations born in the last several hundred years. They will also account for the largest population groups, as the sand of the sea. Especially if every generation doubles in size, and starting out in the millions or even billions. Many don't even want to admit that Jesus Himself will have 144k dedicated Israelites just as His personal staff. Not to mention a third of Israel will also be redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Then there will be all those beheaded, and then millions of Gentiles from every nation redeemed out of death, and given eternal life. The sheep in Matthew 25 represent Israel. The wheat in Matthew 13 would represent all the rest of the nations on the earth.

The church will be in Paradise, not on earth. The church will not marry nor procreate. But the sheep and wheat will procreate and spread across the earth.

The command was given in Genesis 1, to multiply and subdue the earth. There should be no reason that will not be repeated during the thousand years. 1 Corinthians 15:28 says that Jesus will reign until all things are subdued.

"And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

 

[Timtofly]

Thanks but unless I am still not seeing this correctly, what do you say about the GWTRJ scene - doesn't this tell us the dead in Christ are resurrected once again to stand before God?

No. The redeemed don't stand at the GWT Judgment event. They are not "the dead".

 

[Timtofly]

Ok, let me throw something out there for everyone to consider.... there are at least two possibilities to resolving this multiple like number of resurrections and deaths.... and even before we evaluate these verses we all recognize that the wicked in Christ will have one physical death to be resurrected for their second and final death.

So, option one is that the actors, God and Magog do not represent a resurrection of the dead in Christ and the term "them" means all the fallen angels associated with Satan when he is resurrected and finally destroyed.

The second option is that the dead in Christ are resurrected after the 1000 years to be destroyed by fire and that is it for them. But that would have to mean the GWTJ is NOT a literal "another" resurrection and destruction, but it symbolic. God makes it known that all of those tha WERE destroyed was due to this judgement for their deeds, actions and rejection of God.

I am now voting for the second option because I do not find the language surrounding the GWTJ stating another literal resurretion and destruction but a judgement on them....

So, would lke to hear your thoughts either way.... thanks.

Neither of your options are viable, nor Scriptural.

Do you accept that the LOF is even a physical place? You claim the GWT is not even a physical event but symbolic of God's Judgment.

There is only one resurrection and it is physical. If the GWT Judgment and the LOF are not physical, then there is no physical resurrection either. The term resurrection is not used in Revelation 20:8-15. Nor is it even implied one time.

The term associated would be "lived again". But that is a negative thought given by John. John wrote:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

John is literally saying the dead will not live again, period. They are not given eternal life at the GWT Judgment. In fact, many agree, they don't get a second chance at redemption according to most interpretations.

So why are people adding a physical resurrection to these dead at a symbolic event that will not even physically happen? That is not being consistent in one's interpretation. Amil do not even interpret the first resurrection in verses 4 and 6 as being physical. Why are you making up a physical resurrection after the thousand years?

 

[Timtofly]

The Jews don’t recognize Jesus as the Messiah, so why should we trust their view on Ezekiel 38-39?

Based on that reasoning, Ezekiel could have been fulfilled, and they missed it. So would you if it happened in your lifetime. You would not understand an OT fulfillment, just like they would not understand Jesus.

The only reason you accept the NT is because the church wrote down the events of first century Israel. You trust what they wrote.

Revelation 20, is not about anything Ezekiel wrote. Not the same Gog and Magog who were alive prior to Jesus Christ. There is no Gog and Magog now, and there won't be at the end of the millennium. That is symbolic terminology in Revelation 20, and describes people who will not be born for hundreds of years from now. When Ezekiel wrote, there were people living who were called Gog and Magog.

You cannot say that Revelation 20 already happened. Your argument works against you. The church would have declared it over. If you do not trust Israelites, you should trust the church. No one in the first thousand years after Jesus, declared Revelation 20 fulfilled. You are a product of modern interpretations.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

Who is God and Magog? If you find they represent those dead in Christ and have been resurrected, then they are destroyed by fire (20:7-9), and then Satan, who was also brought out of the abyss would be sent to the lake of fire and never heard of again.

And it that is true (which I believe represents "today's accepted interpretation," this will required these same folks to be resurrected once again to stand before the GWTJ where they will be sent to the lake of fire.

This means the dead in Christ would have to be resurrected twice and die 3 times.... I have alot of difficutly with this...

When I attempted to complete an outline of these events prior to preparing a narrative on this chapter, the sequence of events made no sense to me.....

The only way I can see these events happening without these multiple resurrections is if the definition of Gog and Magog do NOT represent those dead in Christ and were resurrected and destroyed by fire..... but they represent the fallen angels associated with Satan. Thus, they and Satan were brought out of the abyss, and the fallen angels (Gog and Magog) were destroyed by fire, Satan was thrown into the lake of fire never to be heard of again, and then the dead in Christ were resurrected to be present in the GWTJ..

Any thoughts?

Gog is a LEADER (probably Putin) who leads Magog (Russia today the Chinese built the great wall to defend against Magogites so says a a famed historian 2500 years ago. They were Russian Horsemen who could shoot arrows while riding backwards on a horse, really great warriors.

 

[Timtofly]

Hold on a minute, I’m not arguing against the Revelation 20 Gog/Magog event being spiritual in nature, I’m saying the Ezekiel 38-39 Gog/Magog event was a literal historical event.

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Revelation 20 is not a spiritual event. People literally march across the earth "in protest". Why would God kill people physically for just thinking about a spiritual objection?

 

[Timtofly]

You have once again misrepresented Amil. You try to debate against something that you don't even understand. Amils do not say that those who have put on bodily immortality are among "the dead" mentioned in that passage. The dead mentioned in that passage end up in the lake of fire. But, what we do say is that there is more going on at the GWTJ than what is described in Revelation 20:11-15. Not every passage about the judgment contains all of the details about it. There are more details about it given by Jesus in passages like Matthew 13:36-43 and Matthew 25:31-46 and by Paul in passages like 2 Corinthians 5:10 and Romans 14:10-12. We have to look at all of those passages to get the full picture of what will happen at the GWTJ. What a passage like Matthew 25:31-46 shows us is that at the same time unbelievers (the dead) are cast into the lake of fire, believers will inherit eternal life in the kingdom prepared for us from the foundation of the world.

Amil overlook the first judgment that happened a thousand years prior to the GWTJ.

Revelation 20:4

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them."

Amil, according to your metric, that Scripture does not have to be explicit, should say that Jesus sits in judgment twice. Once before the thousand years, and once after.

Because the rest of the dead lived not again at that judgment, but according to you, they lived again at the judgment a thousand years later. Or do you ignore the explicit nature of the verse:

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."

There are 2 judgments that are totally different from each other, where the dead "lived again".

Saying that Matthew 25 is the first judgment prior to the thousand years, does not contradict any Scripture as you keep insisting. No verse says all people of all time only stand in judgment one time. That erroneous interpretation contradicts Revelation 20 and other Scripture. You have to force fit your theory into Scripture.

God sits on the Great White Throne. Jesus sits on a throne. They are both the Lord God, but individual entities within the being of God. Making a distinction between judgment seats does not violate any Scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

1) When Jesus returns He will destroy the wicked by the sword of His mouth and they will go to the grave where they will reside for 1000 years,

They don't have to be buried at all. They could be placed immediately into the LOF. John is not explicit either way. The beast and false prophet are placed in the LOF. Why would their marked followers not receive the same judgment? These people enter the LOF, and as far as we know never leave. They received their final judgment, when they received the mark, and their names removed from the Lamb's book of life

The dead at the GWT Judgment are removed from the Lamb's book of life at that point.

None of the redeemed stand at the GWT Judgment. Why would they as they are not "the dead". With the second birth into eternal life one is no longer dead, but alive: John 11:25-26

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

If you believe that, then the redeemed can never be called "the dead" as found in Revelation 20 standing before the GWT.

The term "first resurrection", is redemption, not a physical body, explicitly. Although when the soul of a redeemed person leaves Adam's dead corruptible flesh, it immediately enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body. 2 Corinthians 5:1. That is when a redeemed person stands before Christ. That is a constant and ongoing phenomenon since the Cross.

The first resurrection is eternal life.

Enoch was given the first resurrection when he was translated to not see death. Those taken in the rapture, will receive the first resurrection, when they are translated out of death into life. When the soul enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body, that is the first resurrection, into eternal life.

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

The first resurrection for those beheaded, means they were not redeemed at the point they were beheaded. They had to stand in judgment to receive redemption and a resurrection.

People get the GWT Judgment wrong as well. If they receive the first resurrection at the GWT, it is to eternal life, to be consistent throughout Scripture. A physical resurrection into the LOF is not the point. Daniel declared some will receive eternal life, redemption, the first resurrection, at the GWT, after spending thousands of years, in death, as the dead. John did not say that explicitly, but says they could not live again, the first resurrection, redemption, until the thousand years are over.

So many posters here want a symbolic spiritual interpretation, when all they are focused on is a physical body. They are the inconsistent ones in their interpretation.

The same with the resurrection of Lazarus in John 11. That was a first resurrection into eternal life. Lazarus would not see death again, else you don't believe Jesus' words.

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Lazarus lived that day, to never see death again. Most place Lazarus back into death, denying the very words of Jesus. The OT received redemption, the first resurrection, and eternal life at the Cross. That was their last day judgment standing before Jesus. They are not part of the dead who will stand at the GWT. They were already judged and covered under this promise:

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

That does not contradict any Scripture. Not even John 5. Another set of verses, Amil wrongly use to support all people of all time, at one single judgment. The GWT Judgment just happens to be the last judgment for the dead, who never received redemption, the first resurrection. It is not some second or third chance at eternal life. It is the only time, the dead at that point can receive the first resurrection, eternal life, called redemption.

 

[grafted branch]

Revelation 20 is not a spiritual event. People literally march across the earth "in protest". Why would God kill people physically for just thinking about a spiritual objection?

When Ezekiel wrote, there were people living who were called Gog and Magog.

If I remember correctly you think nobody will be deceived in any way, shape, or form during a future millennium and you appear to have Gog and Magog being something literal that people are going to be aware of. If your view is correct then perhaps a conversation in the millennium might go like this …



Person 1) hey, how’s it going?

Person 2) good, you know it’s been 999 years and this is day 365, Satan is going to be loosed tomorrow.

Person 1) yea, I know, I’m a Gogite so I’m going to be deceived tomorrow.

Person 2) wow, I’m a Magogite, I’m going to be deceived tomorrow too.

Person 1) I’ve been looking at the breadth of the earth trying to decide where I want to be when the fire comes down and devours me.

Person 2) there’s a nice place over on the east side of Jerusalem that I have my eye on, that’s where I’d like to be when I get devoured.

Person 1) Ok, well it’s the last day for us not to be deceived, it’s been a good 1,000 years, it’s too bad it has to end this way for us.

Person 2) yea, I know, I wish there was something we could do but since we can’t change the fact that we are Gog and Magog, we’re gonna get burned to a crisp.

 

[ewq1938]

If I remember correctly you think nobody will be deceived in any way, shape, or form during a future millennium and you appear to have Gog and Magog being something literal that people are going to be aware of. If your view is correct then perhaps a conversation in the millennium might go like this …



Person 1) hey, how’s it going?

Person 2) good, you know it’s been 999 years and this is day 365, Satan is going to be loosed tomorrow.

Person 1) yea, I know, I’m a Gogite so I’m going to be deceived tomorrow.

Person 2) wow, I’m a Magogite, I’m going to be deceived tomorrow too.

Person 1) I’ve been looking at the breadth of the earth trying to decide where I want to be when the fire comes down and devours me.

Person 2) there’s a nice place over on the east side of Jerusalem that I have my eye on, that’s where I’d like to be when I get devoured.

Person 1) Ok, well it’s the last day for us not to be deceived, it’s been a good 1,000 years, it’s too bad it has to end this way for us.

Person 2) yea, I know, I wish there was something we could do but since we can’t change the fact that we are Gog and Magog, we’re gonna get burned to a crisp.

Scripture does not say all the mortal peoples of the Millennium will be deceived by satan. It uses symbolic language to indicate a large amount will be but does not say all. Your imaginary conversation also ignores the fact that the bible says those who join satan's army are DECEIVED so they would not know ahead of time that they would be the ones who get deceived.

 

[grafted branch]

Scripture does not say all the mortal peoples of the Millennium will be deceived by satan. It uses symbolic language to indicate a large amount will be but does not say all. Your imaginary conversation also ignores the fact that the bible says those who join satan's army are DECEIVED so they would not know ahead of time that they would be the ones who get deceived.

Well, here’s the problem, if there is absolutely no deception in the millennium then people will know whether they are in Gog/Magog or in the camp of the saint during the millennium. They will also know the exact day Satan will be loosed.

Why would anyone remain in Gog/Magog past the last day of the millennium? If people have no choice but must remain in Gog/Magog then the conversation I proposed in the post above would be very probable per the Premil view.

 

[ewq1938]

Well, here’s the problem, if there is absolutely no deception in the millennium then people will know whether they are in Gog/Magog or in the camp of the saint during the millennium.

They won't know that they are going to be deceived. The deceived don't even know they are deceived while they are deceived.

Why would anyone remain in Gog/Magog past the last day of the millennium? If people have no choice but must remain in Gog/Magog then the conversation I proposed in the post above would be very probable per the Premil view.

It's nonsense, not probable. The exact same issue happens in your view also, but you only think it's a problem for Premill.

In Premill and Amill, the Millennium is a period of rule by Christ and his saints over the unsaved nations. That rule only protects them from Satan's deceptions during the Millennium. When it ends, many of those people will be deceived. It is not a failure of Christ or the saints in either doctrine.


Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

 

[grafted branch]

They won't know that they are going to be deceived.

What are you talking about, people will still have the Bible during a Premil millennium and they won’t be deceived, so they will have the correct understanding. Which means they will know all about Satan’s little season which takes place after the millennium.

The deceived don't even know they are deceived while they are deceived.

Yes, of course, but the deception only takes place after the millennium. During the millennium they know they are going to be deceived prior to the actual deception which doesn’t take place till after the millennium. A reasonable person would take the necessary steps to prevent the deception in the first place, while they aren’t being deceived.

A reasonable person during a Premil millennium would enter the camp of the saints prior to the end of the millennium. That’s common sense.

It's nonsense, not probable.

Right, a future millennium doesn’t make sense and is not probable.

The exact same issue happens in your view also, but you only think it's a problem for Premill.

I’m preterist so it’s not a problem for me.

 

[ewq1938]

What are you talking about, people will still have the Bible during a Premil millennium and they won’t be deceived, so they will have the correct understanding.

lol...people have the bible now and don't understand it. The Apostasy is coming but reading that verse doesn't mean those who will commity Apostasy will know they will ahead of time.

Yes, of course, but the deception only takes place after the millennium. During the millennium they know they are going to be deceived prior to the actual deception which doesn’t take place till after the millennium. A reasonable person would take the necessary steps to prevent the deception in the first place, while they aren’t being deceived.

A reasonable person during a Premil millennium would enter the camp of the saints prior to the end of the millennium. That’s common sense.

Then why doesn't the bible say some do that?

Right, a future millennium doesn’t make sense and is not probable.

No, a past or current Millennium isn't possible since the world is changed forever when the Mill starts. The Mill is not the same old world that always has been.

I’m preterist so it’s not a problem for me.

It's the same type of problem. Why do so many people in your Millennium end up being deceived and following satan? Clearly the rule of Christ and the saints had no affect on them.

The Premill Millennium is superior to all other ones. That cannot even be denied in any serious way.

 

[grafted branch]

lol...people have the bible now and don't understand it. The Apostasy is coming but reading that verse doesn't mean those who will commity Apostasy will know they will ahead of time.

Let me remind you of a basic definition of what deception is … to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid.

It appears you have either shifted your argument to deception taking place in the millennium or that people in the millennium will have such a low IQ that they won’t be able to understand the Bible or figure out where the camp of the saints is located.

Currently most every view, preterist, Amil, Premil all have Satan’s little season happening after the millennium. I’ve never seen an argument against that. There is no reason to think that people in a future millennium wouldn’t understand that Satan’s little season would be the next event and that a person should go to the camp of the saints prior to the end of the millennium.

Now, are you really taking a serious look at your view or are you just looking for an excuse as to why people in your future millennium can’t figure out what’s going to happen to them after the millennium?

Then why doesn't the bible say some do that?

Because Premil is not correct. If the Premil view was correct the Bible would’ve discussed that.

It’s kinda like asking why doesn’t the Bible say little green martians need to be saved. The answer would be … because you have an incorrect understanding of life on Mars. Premil has an incorrect understanding of the millennium.

No, a past or current Millennium isn't possible since the world is changed forever when the Mill starts. The Mill is not the same old world that always has been.

The world was changed forever when the new covenant came.

The Premill Millennium is superior to all other ones. That cannot even be denied in any serious way.

Well, we are currently discussing a serious flaw in the Premil view and you have yet to give a straightforward explanation of why anyone wouldn’t go to the camp of the saints prior to the end of the millennium.

 

[Timtofly]

Perhaps you need to study the record of battles surrounding Israel, a good start would be Ezekiel chapter 32 and the many armies mentioned to be killed

Ezekiel 38:3KJV
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

Ezekiel 39:1KJV
1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

Ezekiel 32:26-28KJV
26 There is Meshech, Tubal, and all her multitude: her graves are round about him: all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword, though they caused their terror in the land of the living.
27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.
28 Yea, thou shalt be broken in the midst of the uncircumcised, and shalt lie with them that are slain with the sword.

When did Turkey fight against Syria?

 

[Timtofly]

First, the dead in Christ rise, then after a thousand years "the rest of the dead" will rise. That's what we find when looking at all of the related passages.

No, only the beheaded are raised at that time. The dead in Christ were raised years prior to the beheaded even loosing their heads. You are as bad as Amil lumping the resurrection of the beheaded at the same time as the resurrection at the Cross, and the rapture. Neither the Cross nor the rapture happen in Revelation 20:4-6. The Cross was a resurrection of the dead in Christ. That is when the OT redeemed were resurrected.