Revelation chapter 20 - Gog and Magog

[ewq1938]

Currently most every view, preterist, Amil, Premil all have Satan’s little season happening after the millennium. I’ve never seen an argument against that. There is no reason to think that people in a future millennium wouldn’t understand that Satan’s little season would be the next event and that a person should go to the camp of the saints prior to the end of the millennium.

The camp of the saints is only for the saints, not anyone else so your idea is ridiculous.

Now, are you really taking a serious look at your view or are you just looking for an excuse as to why people in your future millennium can’t figure out what’s going to happen to them after the millennium?

The bible doesn't say anyone someone knows they will be deceived after the MIll ends so you are presenting imaginary nonsense.

Because Premil is not correct. If the Premil view was correct the Bible would’ve discussed that.

No, Amill is not correct because the bible would discuss that but it doesn't.

Well, we are currently discussing a serious flaw in the Premil view and you have yet to give a straightforward explanation of why anyone wouldn’t go to the camp of the saints prior to the end of the millennium.

It isn't possible, plus none do that in any Amill set of events either, let alone in any version or translation of Rev. It's just foolish made-up nonsense and doesn't affect Premill in the slightest.

People will be deceived after the Amill Mill and Premill Mill. It's part of God's plan.

The bible DOES NOT support the second coming as happening after the Mill has ended.

 

[Timtofly]

There will be one future resurrection of all, both the righteous and wicked, there won't be a 1,000 year gap as you claim

"All" that are in the Graves

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Only the lost will be in their graves. Some lost will be allowed to receive eternal life. If you are are in a grave, at that point, you are not even saved. The redeemed are not dead, at that point. You claim the chapter is all about the spiritual. So those are spiritually dead people at the end of the chapter. Jesus said all in their graves. That would be all spiritually dead people. No one who is redeemed will be in a grave.

Jesus did not say all redeemed people in their graves. Jesus said all spiritually dead people in their graves will come forth, and some will be given eternal life at that point.

 

[Timtofly]

Davidpt places a 1,000 year gap between verses 23-24 below to suit his false doctrine of a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth at the return of Jesus "False" Your desired gap doesn't exist as you add to scripture

Would you not place a gap between the Cross and the Second Coming? Did Jesus die and come the Second time in a 24 hour day?

"But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits (The Cross), afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (The Second Coming)
Then cometh the end (The end of creation)."

You have 3 different historical events. Did they all happen on the same 24 hour day? Or have there been gaps of time, and will be gaps of time?

Are you saying that the Cross could not have happened a thousand or two thousand years ago, because there are no thousand year periods covered in those verses?

There was a resurrection at the Cross or was Matthew lying in chapter 27 when he says that a resurrection happened about 2 thousand years ago? Were the unrighteous resurrected and judged at the Cross?

 

[Timtofly]

The resurrected unsaved dead cannot and do not attack any city.

Not only that. There is no creation when the dead stand before God.

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

Creation returns to God, per 1 Corinthians 15, before the dead stand before God. All that is left are death and sheol, which are then emptied, and the dead literally stand before God prior to any resurrection. Death and sheol being emptied out and cast into the LOF, is not a resurrection. The dead are in the same condition standing before God.

If there is a resurrection, it is given as a reward, not a means to stand before God. Daniel is symbolic realism, "coming out of the dust". There is no dust according to John. Heaven and earth no longer exist. Most would say that death and sheol are not literal places, but that is where the dead are left in waiting. They ate still dead, without a resurrection, standing before God.

Only then are they allowed a resurrection to eternal life. If they are resurrected, it is to life, not to be tossed into the LOF. Being made alive is the only resurrection.

 

[Verily]

Not only that. There is no creation when the dead stand before God.

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

Creation returns to God, per 1 Corinthians 15, before the dead stand before God. All that is left are death and sheol, which are then emptied, and the dead literally stand before God prior to any resurrection. Death and sheol being emptied out and cast into the LOF, is not a resurrection. The dead are in the same condition standing before God.

If there is a resurrection, it is given as a reward, not a means to stand before God. Daniel is symbolic realism, "coming out of the dust". There is no dust according to John. Heaven and earth no longer exist. Most would say that death and sheol are not literal places, but that is where the dead are left in waiting. They ate still dead, without a resurrection, standing before God.

Only then are they allowed a resurrection to eternal life. If they are resurrected, it is to life, not to be tossed into the LOF. Being made alive is the only resurrection.

It does speak of the resurrection of damnation though

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[ewq1938]

It does speak of the resurrection of damnation though

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Correct.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

First group resurrection: "to everlasting life"
Second group resurrection: "to shame and everlasting contempt"


Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life ; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

First group resurrection: "resurrection of life"
Second group resurrection: "the resurrection of damnation"


Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

First group resurrection: "the just"
Second group resurrection: the "unjust"

Take note that in every passage where the resurrection of the saved and unsaved are mentioned that the saved or just is always mentioned first. That's important because it is they that resurrect first! Scripture never deviates in this order. Revelation, John, Daniel and Acts all say the saved first, then the unsaved in that exact order.


Luk 14:12 Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.
Luk 14:13 But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind:
Luk 14:14 And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

He did not say the resurrection of the just and unjust. He said only the just. Again, this is evidence of two separate resurrections. The resurrection of the just is only of the just, no one else.

What we learn from these verses is that there are two resurrections. One resurrection is to life and the other resurrection is to damnation and contempt. Two resurrections! Never is there a single resurrection of both righteous and unrighteous at the same time.

 

[Timtofly]

The resurrection of the rest of the dead - which will stand before the Great White Throne Judgment.

a. includes saved persons who did not participate in either 1. or 2. - live forever into eternity.
b. includes all of the wicked and unsaved persons - who receive the second death - cast into the lake of fire.

This is not accurate. No redeemed person is still dead at that point. The OT redeemed are not dead today. The OT redeemed were made alive at the Cross, not 3,000 years after the Cross nor a thousand years after the Second Coming.

Did Jesus say in John 11 that people would have to wait 3,000 years to be resurrected?

Did the OT redeemed believe in the redemptive work of the Cross? Do the dead in sheol believe in the redemptive work on the Cross? Did either group believe prior to physical death? Are you alive in Christ, prior to death, and is that different post the Cross, as opposed to under the Law, which was a shadow of the redemptive work of the Cross?

Hebrews 11 seems to indicate that their faith was no different than your's is today. So they canot still be dead, but are the firstfruits of eternal life since the Cross, like you are in Christ post the Cross. No one in Christ is still in death. Physically dying does not make one unredeemed. Not even prior to the Cross. When Lazarus came out physically, he was in an eternal life body to never die again. He ascended to heaven physically on Sunday morning with Jesus and all the OT redeemed. They were the only firstfruits in Christ mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15. The redemptive work of the Cross made the OT Covenant complete. All were then made alive and removed from Abraham's bosom. Lazarus was the first of that group, made alive as the explicit example of what the resurrection to eternal life was.

Those at the GWT Judgment are not redeemed, period. They receive redemption when granted eternal life. That is the first time they are made alive in Christ. Those dead were not in Christ, redeemed, prior to that point.

Those resurrected in Revelation 20:4 were not redeemed prior to being beheaded. That is why they had to stand in judgment prior to redemption. The judgement they received was eternal life, being made alive. They were beheaded to avoid getting the mark, by faith believing they would live again, but they were not redeemed like those in the OT, you claim are different than post Cross believers. One cannot be the dead in death, unredeemed, and alive both at the same time. Sure all are redeemed even prior to creation, but being redeemed from the person's private perspective and God's is two different things. Once tossed into the LOF is when God declares He never new one as being redeemed, meaning redemption is no longer viable. The resurrection of life at that point is when redemption changes one from death to life, not just the ability to physically stand before God.

 

[Douggg]

This is not accurate. No redeemed person is still dead at that point. The OT redeemed are not dead today. The OT redeemed were made alive at the Cross, not 3,000 years after the Cross nor a thousand years after the Second Coming.

Did Jesus say in John 11 that people would have to wait 3,000 years to be resurrected?

Did the OT redeemed believe in the redemptive work of the Cross? Do the dead in sheol believe in the redemptive work on the Cross? Did either group believe prior to physical death? Are you alive in Christ, prior to death, and is that different post the Cross, as opposed to under the Law, which was a shadow of the redemptive work of the Cross?

Hebrews 11 seems to indicate that their faith was no different than your's is today. So they canot still be dead, but are the firstfruits of eternal life since the Cross, like you are in Christ post the Cross. No one in Christ is still in death. Physically dying does not make one unredeemed. Not even prior to the Cross. When Lazarus came out physically, he was in an eternal life body to never die again. He ascended to heaven physically on Sunday morning with Jesus and all the OT redeemed. They were the only firstfruits in Christ mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15. The redemptive work of the Cross made the OT Covenant complete. All were then made alive and removed from Abraham's bosom. Lazarus was the first of that group, made alive as the explicit example of what the resurrection to eternal life was.

Those at the GWT Judgment are not redeemed, period. They receive redemption when granted eternal life. That is the first time they are made alive in Christ. Those dead were not in Christ, redeemed, prior to that point.

Those resurrected in Revelation 20:4 were not redeemed prior to being beheaded. That is why they had to stand in judgment prior to redemption. The judgement they received was eternal life, being made alive. They were beheaded to avoid getting the mark, by faith believing they would live again, but they were not redeemed like those in the OT, you claim are different than post Cross believers. One cannot be the dead in death, unredeemed, and alive both at the same time. Sure all are redeemed even prior to creation, but being redeemed from the person's private perspective and God's is two different things. Once tossed into the LOF is when God declares He never new one as being redeemed, meaning redemption is no longer viable. The resurrection of life at that point is when redemption changes one from death to life, not just the ability to physically stand before God.

Tim, we Christians are alive spiritually in Christ, born again. Our souls have been "redeemed". Our bodies have yet to be "redeemed" though.

We are in our natural bodies, that will eventually die. Unless, the rapture/resurrection event should take place before then.

The time will come when our natural bodies will be "redeemed" from their corruptible state into their everlasting eternal incorruptible state in the rapture/resurrected event. Called the blessed hope.

 

[Timtofly]

Those who were following and abiding by the law were spiritually “alive” prior to Christ. Once Christ came, those who didn’t recognize Jesus as the Messiah while still following and abiding by the law were now spiritually “dead”. All they had to do was not believe and they went from being alive to being dead. These people are the rest of the dead in Revelation 20:5.

It was not the law, but the act of faith, in obedience to God. The OT redeemed were not spiritually alive, whatever that means. They were waiting in Abraham's bosom in faith.

Lazarus was the only one spiritually alive, and that was after he was called out of Abraham's bosom. Having a physical body is not the entire point of eternal life. Just like being dead in Christ, does not mean you are part of "the dead".

 

[Timtofly]

I’m focusing on Israel being called “dead” after the cross. That is very relevant to the rest of the dead in Revelation 20:5. If you’re arguing that people who don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah are spiritually dead, then we are on the same page.

In Deuteronomy 33:1-3 Moses calls all of Israel saints. That probably would’ve been a better term for me to use but regardless, I think can agree on what spiritually dead is.

Revelation 20:5 is referring to spiritually dead people.

While "Israel" may have been used as a catch all, like the word "Christian", one should refer to one's personal choice as being redeemed. There was only one Israel, and he was called Jacob. His descendants were Israelites. They were born into redemption, until cast off in disbelief. The Law was not the means of redemption. Faith in God was.

How could you say all on earth currently alive, who call themselves a "Christian" are actually redeemed? How would you know their heart? Using terms is just a human construct, not an absolute biblical concept. There are redeemed humans who don't use the term Christian, as only God knows the heart.

I still cannot understand, why some here think "spiritual Israel", their term, are still considered the dead standing at the GWT Judgment. One is not physically born a "spiritual Israelite", their term. God had a covenant with the descendants of Jacob, and it was based on the physical. That was in addition to the redeemed out of all humanity. To be redeemed, one did not become Israel, just like one does not just join a church to be redeemed. But one born into the Covenant was better off, than most church members today. But to say the redeemed are part of the dead standing at the GWT Judgment seems focused on the physical and not the fact, they are all spiritually dead, and not a redeemed person among them. At that point many will be given redemption, and they will receive the resurrection of eternal life. But they were not spiritually alive ever, until that point.

 

[grafted branch]

It was not the law, but the act of faith, in obedience to God. The OT redeemed were not spiritually alive, whatever that means. They were waiting in Abraham's bosom in faith.

Lazarus was the only one spiritually alive, and that was after he was called out of Abraham's bosom. Having a physical body is not the entire point of eternal life. Just like being dead in Christ, does not mean you are part of "the dead".

Let me define “spirituality alive” this way. A person can currently confess Jesus as their savior, join a church, and claim they are spiritually alive. From our human perspective that person is saved or “spiritually alive”.

From Gods perspective that person may or may not be one of His elect. Only God truly knows the heart. A person can think they are one of His elect while in reality they are not, they might be told “I never knew you”.

A person during the Old Testament, who followed all the law, would by our human perspective be saved, spiritually alive. The day Jesus died on the cross the old covenant was no longer valid and a person who just the day before appeared to be saved and alive was now unsaved and dead if they did the same exact things. A person had to change and recognize that animal sacrifices were no longer valid, the handwriting of ordinances that were against us were nailed to the cross.

 

[Timtofly]

Right, but if you insert a gap for the rest of the dead to only live again after the short season then why not have a literal thousand years with a gap inserted after the thousand before Satan is loosed? And why not insert a gap after the two witnesses are done with their testimonies?

There is no guarantee the rest of the dead will live again after the thousand years. The guarantee is that they will not live again until the thousand years is over.

If creation ceases to exist immediately upon the thousand year mark, then there would be no Satan nor earth to deceive.

You are mixing up the specifics and mixing up points. Revelation 20 is explicit in saying, the dead stand before God after creation has ceased to exist. There is no resurrection, period, prior to the end of creation. You all placing a resurrection into creation, contradicts John's whole point. There is not even a physical resurrection into a physical reality, as no reality will even exist at that point.

Some dead standing before God will receive a first resurrection into eternal life, and be placed back into the New Heaven and Earth. They cannot have a resurrection until they are judged by God. But none of the dead can even face God until the thousand years are over. That is a guaranteed fact. That waiting has not started, much less can be declared over as preterist claim.

 

[grafted branch]

There is no resurrection, period, prior to the end of creation. You all placing a resurrection into creation, contradicts John's whole point. There is not even a physical resurrection into a physical reality, as no reality will even exist at that point.

I’m not proposing the “rest of the dead” living not again till the thousand years are finished is a resurrection. What I’m proposing is that the “rest of the dead” is Israel that is blind in part until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. No physical resurrection is needed for the blindness to be lifted from Israel.

 

[ewq1938]

Tim, we Christians are alive spiritually in Christ, born again. Our souls have been "redeemed". Our bodies have yet to be "redeemed" though.

We are in our natural bodies, that will eventually die. Unless, the rapture/resurrection event should take place before then.

The time will come when our natural bodies will be "redeemed" from their corruptible state into their everlasting eternal incorruptible state in the rapture/resurrected event. Called the blessed hope.

The resurrection happens BEFORE the rapture. They are not the same event. At least put the order correctly as resurrection/rapture.

 

[ewq1938]

I’m not proposing the “rest of the dead” living not again till the thousand years are finished is a resurrection. What I’m proposing is that the “rest of the dead” is Israel that is blind in part until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. No physical resurrection is needed for the blindness to be lifted from Israel.

Unblinding doesn't equal acceptance of Christ because a rejection of Christ happened before the blinding. Unblinding an unbeliever results in an unbeliever.

 

[Douggg]

The resurrection happens BEFORE the rapture. They are not the same event. At least put the order correctly as resurrection/rapture.

Although both happen at virtually the same time, you do have a point.

 

[ewq1938]

Although both happen at virtually the same time, you do have a point.

I'm glad to hear that. I have more points but we can leave it here for now.

 

[grafted branch]

Unblinding doesn't equal acceptance of Christ because a rejection of Christ happened before the blinding. Unblinding an unbeliever results in an unbeliever.

I agree. A person who is blind in part doesn’t have the free will to choose not to be blind in part and a person who isn’t blind in part isn’t necessarily a believer.

Can you give us your explanation of what blindness in part means?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree. A person who is blind in part doesn’t have the free will to choose not to be blind in part and a person who isn’t blind in part isn’t necessarily a believer.

Can you give us your explanation of what blindness in part means?

The blindness in part doesn't refer to individuals being blind in part, whatever that would even mean. It refers to part of Israel being spiritually blind and part not being spiritually blind. Paul explained that here:

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Can you see here how Paul indicated that at the time he was writing this there was "a remnant" of saved believers in Israel (which he called "the election") and "the rest were blinded"? So, the part of Israel that was blinded consisted of "the rest" that "were blinded" while "the remnant according to the election of grace" was the part of Israel that was not blinded. Each individual was either blind or not. There is no partial blindness from an individual perspective.

 

[grafted branch]

The blindness in part doesn't refer to individuals being blind in part, whatever that would even mean. It refers to part of Israel being spiritually blind and part not being spiritually blind. Paul explained that here:

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Can you see here how Paul indicated that at the time he was writing this there was "a remnant" of saved believers in Israel (which he called "the election") and "the rest were blinded"? So, the part of Israel that was blinded consisted of "the rest" that "were blinded" while "the remnant according to the election of grace" was the part of Israel that was not blinded. Each individual was either blind or not. There is no partial blindness from an individual perspective.

I can see how a remnant were saved and the rest blinded. The remnant were saved by grace and weren’t blinded because sight was a gift to them. The rest that claimed they had spiritual insight were blinded and their sin remained.



John 9:39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. 40And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? 41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.



The Pharisees had some sight, they knew the scriptures but rejected Jesus. They were blind concerning that part, their sins remained.



Romans 11:7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.



If the blindness in part was only referring to some being saved and some not then Romans 11:7-8 would be a universal statement for both Israel and Gentiles through out all of history but Gentiles are never said to be blind in part.
Israel remained blind in part concerning Jesus until the fullness of the Gentiles came in, that is until the Gentiles fulfilled the prophecy concerning them.



Luke 17:30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.



The partial blindness of not recognizing Jesus as the promised Messiah was lifted when the Son of man was revealed just prior to the AOD fleeing.



Matthew 24:40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.



The word taken <3880> can mean to receive something transmitted, to receive with the mind. Since Matthew 24:40-41 takes place during the time of the AOD it makes sense to equate the word “taken” with the Son of man being revealed, with the blindness in part being lifted, and with the AOD fleeing taking place. All these things fit together when blindness in part is viewed as understanding some of the scriptures but not recognizing Jesus as the Messiah.