Revelation chapter 20 - Gog and Magog

[wooddog]

Ezekiel 39:11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.

The mass grave site full of the bones of Gog's armies dead bodies does not exist because Ezekiel 39 has not happen yet.

Smells like Gaza.

 

[Truth7t7]

I wondered where can @Truth7t7 find the massive grave site in Israel today which it is called the Valley of Hamongog. Where is it, then? Where do you smell it? :-)

No need to find a grave site, the prophecy of Ezekiel Chapter 39 surrounds Israel's return from the Babylonian Captivity To (Israel/Jerusalem) the battle and event's seen took place "Long Ago" with "Wooden Weapons", Bows, Arrows, Spears, Shields

Ezekiel Chapters 40-46 surrounds the building of the 2nd Zerubabbel Temple in Jerusalem In 536BC

Israel's Return From The Babylonian Captivity Seen Below, Simple, Clear, Easy To Understand. The Prophecy In Ezekiel 39 Was "Fulfilled" Long Ago

Ezekiel 39:27-28KJV
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No need to find a grave site, the prophecy of Ezekiel Chapter 39 surrounds Israel's return from the Babylonian Captivity To (Israel/Jerusalem) the battle and event's seen took place "Long Ago"

“Long ago” without know exact when the battle took place isn’t acceptable. Refuse to find a grave yard after God said there’s a place proves you do not know!

Gog and magog is in the future long after 536BC.

 

[Douggg]

No need to find a grave site, the prophecy of Ezekiel Chapter 39 surrounds Israel's return from the Babylonian Captivity To (Israel/Jerusalem) the battle and event's seen took place "Long Ago" with "Wooden Weapons", Bows, Arrows, Spears, Shields

Ezekiel Chapters 40-46 surrounds the building of the 2nd Zerubabbel Temple in Jerusalem In 536BC

In the books of the bible that have "Zerubbabel" in them, which have the Gog/Magog attack on Israel ? The nations that make up the Gog/Magog attack are in Ezekiel 38:2-6.

And 536BC you are claiming is the latter years, latter days of Ezekiel 38:8, Ezekiel 38:16 ?

 

[Davidpt]

No need to find a grave site, the prophecy of Ezekiel Chapter 39 surrounds Israel's return from the Babylonian Captivity To (Israel/Jerusalem) the battle and event's seen took place "Long Ago" with "Wooden Weapons", Bows, Arrows, Spears, Shields

Ezekiel Chapters 40-46 surrounds the building of the 2nd Zerubabbel Temple in Jerusalem In 536BC

Israel's Return From The Babylonian Captivity Seen Below, Simple, Clear, Easy To Understand. The Prophecy In Ezekiel 39 Was "Fulfilled" Long Ago

Ezekiel 39:27-28KJV
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Let's try this route. Maybe you are more reasonable than I give you credit for or maybe not. I guess we will find out.

Suppose you are Ezekiel and that you are living in ancient times. And that you are then presented with visions of the future thousands of years away. Obviously, you are going to see things you have never seen before. Especially if these visions are involving the 21st century. Seeing these visions is one thing. Writing about what you saw is another thing since what you saw doesn't even exist yet. Now you have to describe what you saw and the only thing you can use to describe what you saw is via what you are already familiar with at the time.

If you saw missiles in the visions, for example, obviously missiles don't exist in ancient times. Therefore, you might use arrows to describe them, for example. Why not? Do not arrows get shot into the air and fly through the air? Do not missiles get shot through the air and fly through the air? There you go then.

To show how ridiculous you are being about Ezekiel 38-39 based on it using ancient weaponary imagery, are you going to apply the same reasoning to the following as well, where you already admit is still future?


Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.


If Christ returns sometime in the 21st century do you seriously believe the battle will be involving literal horses? Do you seriously think the flesh of horses is meaning flesh of literal horses? Of course you don't. Why is it then that Revelation 19 can use ancient imagery describing the 21st century yet not literally involve anything ancient, but Ezekiel 38-39 can't? Per the latter it has to be literal ancient weapons, per your thinking.

But why? Because if it is, why is it that no Jew past or present has any knowledge of these events ever transpiring in the past? That would be like Americans, for example, that would know their own history, none of them knowing about a major event that supposedly happened in their history. Yet they are told by someone, such as you, that this major event did happen, though. Except no American past or present knows anything about it having happened in the past. That's really reasonable, isn't it? That you have insight about someones past history that no one else has.

 

[Davidpt]

Many Claim Ezekiel Chapters 40-46, Represents A Future Temple In A Millennium On Earth, Is This True?​

As clearly shown, Ezekiel Chapter 43 showed the temple "Pattern" to the House of Israel in the Babylonian Captivity let "Them" measure, Ezekiel was instructed to write the ordinances and law in "Their" sight, that "They" keep them, not some future generation as many "Falsely" claim

The temple seen in Ezekiel Chapters 40-46 is nothing more than the 2nd Zerubbabel Temple built 536BC after the Babylonian Captivity, where animal sacrifice for "Sin" was was instructed by "God", prior to the shed blood of Jesus Christ on Calvary, don't be deceived

Ezekiel 43:10-11 & 19-21KJV
10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord God, a young bullock for a sin offering.
20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.

Your point is valid here and I agree with you here. But even so, what you just submitted involves literal animal sacrificing, something that has already been done away with. As to Ezekiel 38-39, literal animal sacrificing has zero to do with what is recorded in those 2 chapters. So it's not like you can use that as an argument, that since Ezekiel 38-39 involves literal animal sacrificing, it can't be about the future then. Your argument is, since it involves ancient weapons, therefore, it can't be about the future, case closed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Who is God and Magog? If you find they represent those dead in Christ and have been resurrected, then they are destroyed by fire (20:7-9), and then Satan, who was also brought out of the abyss would be sent to the lake of fire and never heard of again.

And it that is true (which I believe represents "today's accepted interpretation," this will required these same folks to be resurrected once again to stand before the GWTJ where they will be sent to the lake of fire.

This means the dead in Christ would have to be resurrected twice and die 3 times.... I have alot of difficutly with this...

Where did you get this idea from? I don't think anyone believes that the ones who number "as the sand of the sea" and are symbolically referred to as "Gog and Magog" refer to the dead in Christ who have been resurrected. Why would anyone believe that the dead in Christ would be resurrected only to later be destroyed by fire? That's insane and completely unreasonable. Scripture teaches that the dead in Christ will be resurrected and changed to be bodily immortal. Do you actually know anyone who believes what you're describing here?

When I attempted to complete an outline of these events prior to preparing a narrative on this chapter, the sequence of events made no sense to me.....

Only Amillennialism can make sense of Revelation 20 without contradicting other scripture. It refers to Christ reigning. Scripture teaches that He has been reigning since His resurrection (Matt 28:16-18, Ephesians 1:19-23, Rev 1:5-6, etc.) It refers to His followers as being priests in His kingdom, which has been the case since His resurrection (Rev 1:5-6, 1 Peter 2:9, etc.). Scripture teaches that the first resurrection was Christ's resurrection itself (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20), so having part in the first resurrection means to have part in His resurrection. Scripture repeatedly teaches about one judgment day, not multiple judgment days and it teaches that it will occur when Christ returns (Matt 25:31-46), so Revelation 20 should be interpreted accordingly.

The only way I can see these events happening without these multiple resurrections is if the definition of Gog and Magog do NOT represent those dead in Christ and were resurrected and destroyed by fire..... but they represent the fallen angels associated with Satan.

You are making this far too complicated. They don't represent fallen angels, they represent all people who oppose Christ and His Church. All unbelievers.

Thus, they and Satan were brought out of the abyss, and the fallen angels (Gog and Magog) were destroyed by fire, Satan was thrown into the lake of fire never to be heard of again, and then the dead in Christ were resurrected to be present in the GWTJ..

Any thoughts?

How can fallen angels be destroyed by fire? No, Revelation 20:9 is the same event as Peter describes in 2 Peter 3:10-12 and that Paul describes in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Thess 1:7-10. Fire will come down from heaven to earth to destroy all of Christ's enemies when He comes as a thief in the night unexpectedly.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The term Gog and Magog represent all the raised wicked (second resurrection) at the end of the millennium. They are the teeming billions throughout history who have made God their enemy.

Where is this concept taught anywhere in scripture? Once the wicked dead are resurrected, they will be judged (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29). They will not be allowed to roam around on the earth after that. In Revelation 20, "Gog and Magog" number "as the sand of the sea" and are from "the four quarters of the earth" and that represents all of the living wicked on earth who oppose the church.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I am still working on this difficult issue (for me) regarding the number of times the "wicked in Christ" will be resurrected and destroyed" by going through the relevant verses in chapters 19 and 20.

If you have an interest in this topic, please offer me your thoughts....thanks.

1. At Christ’s Return (Revelation 19:19-21):
   • The beast and false prophet are cast into the lake of fire (final and permanent).
   • The wicked alive at His return are killed physically (not yet judged). (FIRST DEATH -PHYSICAL)
2. During the Millennium (Revelation 20:1-6):
   • The righteous reign with Christ.
   • The wicked dead remain in their graves.
3. After the Millennium (Revelation 20:7-10):
   • The wicked dead are resurrected to join Satan’s final rebellion. (FIRST RESURRECTION OF WICKED IN CHRIST)
   • Fire from heaven devours their rebellion (ends their physical presence again). Gog / Magog (SECOND DEATH OF WICKED IN CHRIST)
   • Satan is cast into the lake of fire.
4. The Great White Throne Judgment (Revelation 20:11-15):
   • The wicked are resurrected and judged according to their deeds. (SECOND RESURRECTION OF WICKED IN CHRIST AFTER MILLENIUM)
   • They are cast into the lake of fire, symbolizing eternal separation from God. (THIRD DEATH OF WICKED IN CHRIST)

There is no such thing as "the wicked in Christ". Where do you get that from?

Scripture never teaches that anyone will be resurrected and then allowed to roam around on the earth. Are you keeping other scripture in mind when trying to interpret these passages? Scripture teaches that the wicked dead will be judged after being resurrected. Why would they be allowed to wreak havoc on earth after being resurrected? That makes no sense. No, they will be resurrected unto "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2) and unto "damnation" (John 5:28-29).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thanks but unless I am still not seeing this correctly, what do you say about the GWTRJ scene - doesn't this tell us the dead in Christ are resurrected once again to stand before God?

Why would the dead in Christ be resurrected twice? Scripture never teaches such a thing. Instead, it teaches that the dead in Christ will all be resurrected at the same time and it will only be one time, which is when Christ returns (1 Thess 4:14-17, 1 Cor 15:22-23). You are coming to conclusions regarding Revelation 20 that can't be supported by any other scripture. You need to take other scripture into account when interpreting Revelation 20 and then interpret Revelation 20 accordingly. It doesn't seem like you are doing that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let's face it. It's basically in vain trying to reason with you and others like you about some of these things. Just believe what you want to believe, but don't expect some of the rest of us to believe it with you. If you want tobelieve Ezekiel 38-39 is some ancient battle that already took place, a battle that no religious Jew past or present knows anything about, go for it then.

How do you know that it's talking about a literal, physical battle? It talks about ancient weapons being used and you don't take that literally. Yet, you still insist it's talking about a literal battle. How convenient for you to cherry pick what's literal and what's not in that prophecy. If you were consistent, you would acknowledge that if it's talking about a literal battle, then it would involve ancient weapons, which would suggest that it had to have taken place some time in the past regardless of whether you can prove that or not. But, since there isn't any evidence of such a battle, I think it makes sense to conclude that there must be a lot of symbolism in that passage and it's not meant to be taken literally.

But, if you want to be inconsistent and take part of it literally and part of it not literally in order to make it fit your doctrine, go for it then.

Believe things that even Jews don't believe, Jews that know their own history better than you and I know their history, even they don't believe this to be a battle in the past that has already been fulfilled. Yet somehow you know their history better than they know their history. Go figure.

Ezekiel 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter('achariyth) days(yowm), and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.


Maybe you don't even use a Strong's for all I know, but according to Strong's--'latter('achariyth) days(yowm)' are the same Hebrew words they are in the following passages.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last('achariyth) days(yowm), that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.


Micah 4:1 But in the last('achariyth) days(yowm) it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

Anyone that is not asleep at the wheel would be thinking, someone is trying to tell us something here. That the time period Isaiah 2:2 and Micah 4:1 is involving, is the same time period Ezekiel 38:16 is involving. After all, obviously there can only be one era of time involving last days, not multiple different eras of time where there were last days that came and went, and then later there are some more last days, different last days, thousands of years after these alleged previous last days already came and went.

My view is that the last days involve the past 2000 years plus the millennium that follows Christ's return. And that the last day of the last days is not a literal 24 hour period but is meaning an era of time, meaning the millennium, for one.

I agree that the last days include the past 2,000 years because Peter indicated that they had begun before the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:16-21), but what evidence do you have to indicate that the last days extend beyond Christ's return? According to Peter, scoffers scoff at the promise of Christ's return during the last days.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Obviously, once Jesus actually comes, no one will be scoffing at the promise of His second coming anymore, so that tells me that the last days will be over at that point. The resurrection of the dead in Christ will occur on the last day of the last days (John 6:40).

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

How can there be any more days after the last day? It wouldn't be the last day in that case.

 

[CTK]

Where did you get this idea from? I don't think anyone believes that the ones who number "as the sand of the sea" and are symbolically referred to as "Gog and Magog" refer to the dead in Christ who have been resurrected. Why would anyone believe that the dead in Christ would be resurrected only to later be destroyed by fire? That's insane and completely unreasonable. Scripture teaches that the dead in Christ will be resurrected and changed to be bodily immortal. Do you actually know anyone who believes what you're describing here?


Only Amillennialism can make sense of Revelation 20 without contradicting other scripture. It refers to Christ reigning. Scripture teaches that He has been reigning since His resurrection (Matt 28:16-18, Ephesians 1:19-23, Rev 1:5-6, etc.) It refers to His followers as being priests in His kingdom, which has been the case since His resurrection (Rev 1:5-6, 1 Peter 2:9, etc.). Scripture teaches that the first resurrection was Christ's resurrection itself (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20), so having part in the first resurrection means to have part in His resurrection. Scripture repeatedly teaches about one judgment day, not multiple judgment days and it teaches that it will occur when Christ returns (Matt 25:31-46), so Revelation 20 should be interpreted accordingly.


You are making this far too complicated. They don't represent fallen angels, they represent all people who oppose Christ and His Church. All unbelievers.


How can fallen angels be destroyed by fire? No, Revelation 20:9 is the same event as Peter describes in 2 Peter 3:10-12 and that Paul describes in 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Thess 1:7-10. Fire will come down from heaven to earth to destroy all of Christ's enemies when He comes as a thief in the night unexpectedly.

Please see some of my earlier posts…. #66 for example. I am fairly sure I began and continued this conversation as one who was searching for others views on this topic because I was possibly seeing multiple resurrections and deaths that I knew would not be correct. So I presented the outline of the events in chapters 19 and 20 to reveal what I was seeing.

I believe in #66 I mentioned two options that would remove the issue of multiple resurrections and thus seek the thoughts from others as to which one they found true, or, they may have a completely other interpretation.

Hope that clears things up and let me know how you interpret the Great White Throne Room Judgement - is that symbolic or do those being judged must be resurrected? Thanks

 

[Davidpt]

But, since there isn't any evidence of such a battle, I think it makes sense to conclude that there must be a lot of symbolism in that passage and it's not meant to be taken literally.

Actually, I see this being reasonable what I quoted you here saying. My view is that the 7th vial of wrath is in view at the end of Ezekiel 38 and that I don't take the 7th vial of wrath to be meaning something that only takes place in the middle east or something.

The reasons why I think the 7th vial of wrath is in view is by comparing the following.

Ezekiel 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Compared with.

Revelation 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.


Both accounts involve an earthquake and great hail. Look what Ezekiel 38:20 records---and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. Which then means His presence explains the great earthquake meant in Revelation 16.

Then there is this in Ezekiel 39.

Ezekiel 39:8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.


Compared with.

Revelation 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.


Both accounts have this in common---Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD---and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. Notice that the latter says from the throne, obviously meaning the Lord God, the same Lord God that said that in Ezekiel 39:8 as well, that it is done.

And both accounts have a great earthquake and great hail in common, not to mention, both accounts have God's wrath in common---For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath(Ezekiel 38:19). And that all of these things I just submitted per Ezekiel 38-39 are things pertaining to the 7th vial as well. Just a coincidence, therefore, nothing to see here? I hardly think so. Maybe you or others might think so, but I don't.

 

[grafted branch]

An argument for Ezekiel describing an ancient battle that was fought with ancient weapons.



Gog’s army would attack on horseback, carrying swords, war clubs and spears. In verses 5-7, Ezekiel identifies Gog’s allies as Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer, Beth-Togarmah. The nations that fought with these literal ancient weapons were literal ancient nations. There is no need to extrapolate this into modern weapons or nations.

Ezekiel 38:5–6 tells us that Israel’s enemies come from Persia, Cush, and from the remote parts of the north, these are all within the boundaries of the Persian Empire of Esther’s day. From Esther 8:9 we know that the Persian Empire extended from India to Cush, 127 provinces in all. Cush and Persia are listed in Esther 1:1, 3 and Ezekiel 38:5 Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shield and helmet. The other nations were established in the geographical boundaries from India to Cush in the 127 provinces over which Xerxes ruled (Esther 1:1). What this means is that the Jews were attacked by people from all the provinces of Persia and this is recorded in both Esther and Ezekiel.

During Ezekiel’s time Babylon was the major power yet he prophesied about a future Persian empire. If his prophecy was meant for thousands of years in future it would’ve made sense to describe things using the current empire not the next empire that would no longer be in existence thousands of years later when the prophecy is fulfilled.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Please see some of my earlier posts…. #66 for example. I am fairly sure I began and continued this conversation as one who was searching for others views on this topic because I was possibly seeing multiple resurrections and deaths that I knew would not be correct. So I presented the outline of the events in chapters 19 and 20 to reveal what I was seeing.

I believe in #66 I mentioned two options that would remove the issue of multiple resurrections and thus seek the thoughts from others as to which one they found true, or, they may have a completely other interpretation.

Hope that clears things up and let me know how you interpret the Great White Throne Room Judgement - is that symbolic or do those being judged must be resurrected? Thanks

Let me remind you of what you had said. You said this:

Who is God and Magog? If you find they represent those dead in Christ and have been resurrected, then they are destroyed by fire (20:7-9), and then Satan, who was also brought out of the abyss would be sent to the lake of fire and never heard of again.

And it that is true (which I believe represents "today's accepted interpretation," this will required these same folks to be resurrected once again to stand before the GWTJ where they will be sent to the lake of fire.

You said you believe what you described "represents "today's accepted interpretation" which came across as though you were saying that what you described was the most frequent interpretation being accepted today. Yet, I don't know even one person who believes what you described. So, that's why I'm asking where you got that from.

As for the GWTJ, I believe scripture clearly teaches that there is just one judgment of all people. Not two or more judgments or judgment days as premils believe. So, I believe that all people will be judged at the same judgment. That will include all of the saved and lost. It will include all of the dead who will be resurrected to face judgment. I believe that judgment is described by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46. It will occur just after He comes with His angels. I believe it will occur in the realm of eternity because Revelation 20:11 indicates that it will take place neither on earth nor in heaven. The idea of each person being judged in the realm of time seems ludicrous, anyway. That will take an incredibly long time for Jesus to judge every person one by one. In eternity, it won't matter how much time it takes. Time won't even exist anymore. We don't know yet what that will be like, but it will be different than what we know now.

 

[Davidpt]

An argument for Ezekiel describing an ancient battle that was fought with ancient weapons.



Gog’s army would attack on horseback, carrying swords, war clubs and spears. In verses 5-7, Ezekiel identifies Gog’s allies as Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer, Beth-Togarmah. The nations that fought with these literal ancient weapons were literal ancient nations. There is no need to extrapolate this into modern weapons or nations.

Ezekiel 38:5–6 tells us that Israel’s enemies come from Persia, Cush, and from the remote parts of the north, these are all within the boundaries of the Persian Empire of Esther’s day. From Esther 8:9 we know that the Persian Empire extended from India to Cush, 127 provinces in all. Cush and Persia are listed in Esther 1:1, 3 and Ezekiel 38:5 Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shield and helmet. The other nations were established in the geographical boundaries from India to Cush in the 127 provinces over which Xerxes ruled (Esther 1:1). What this means is that the Jews were attacked by people from all the provinces of Persia and this is recorded in both Esther and Ezekiel.

During Ezekiel’s time Babylon was the major power yet he prophesied about a future Persian empire. If his prophecy was meant for thousands of years in future it would’ve made sense to describe things using the current empire not the next empire that would no longer be in existence thousands of years later when the prophecy is fulfilled.

Now produce some religious Jews past or present that believe this already took place during their history in the past and that they have undeniable proof that it has? After all, if anyone should know their past history, it would obviously be them that would. It's not reasonable that you can know their past history but they don't. What is recorded in Ezekiel 38-39 are not minor events or something, they are major events. Great hail and fire and brimstone falling upon men is not something that can happen in the past and that no one is aware that it already happened.

 

[grafted branch]

Now produce some religious Jews past or present that believe this already took place during their history in the past and that they have undeniable proof that it has? After all, if anyone should know their past history, it would obviously be them that would. It's not reasonable that you can know their past history but they don't. What is recorded in Ezekiel 38-39 are not minor events or something, they are major events. Great hail and fire and brimstone falling upon men is not something that can happen in the past and that no one is aware that it already happened.

The Jews don’t recognize Jesus as the Messiah, so why should we trust their view on Ezekiel 38-39?

 

[Davidpt]

Let me remind you of what you had said. You said this:

You said you believe what you described "represents "today's accepted interpretation" which came across as though you were saying that what you described was the most frequent interpretation being accepted today. Yet, I don't know even one person who believes what you described. So, that's why I'm asking where you got that from.

As for the GWTJ, I believe scripture clearly teaches that there is just one judgment of all people. Not two or more judgments or judgment days as premils believe. So, I believe that all people will be judged at the same judgment. That will include all of the saved and lost. It will include all of the dead who will be resurrected to face judgment. I believe that judgment is described by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46. It will occur just after He comes with His angels. I believe it will occur in the realm of eternity because Revelation 20:11 indicates that it will take place neither on earth nor in heaven. The idea of each person being judged in the realm of time seems ludicrous, anyway. That will take an incredibly long time for Jesus to judge every person one by one. In eternity, it won't matter how much time it takes. Time won't even exist anymore. We don't know yet what that will be like, but it will be different than what we know now.

Can you point out in the following text below where you see any of the following standing in front of God to be judged along with the dead?(In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory)1 Corinthians 15:52-54

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead , small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


If the last trump precedes the GWTJ and that the latter is involving judging the dead, in what way, or in what universe, is one still considered among the dead if they become bodily immortal before, not after nor during the GWTJ, but prior to it? That would be like saying, once Christ rose from the dead and became immortal bodily, He was still depicted as dead.

Premil believes that not one single person that has part in the first resurrection will then be standing among the dead at the GWTJ. Obviously then,
there has to be another judgment that precedes the one meant in Revelation 20:12-15. Maybe it's meaning the following in this case?

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

In context who is being meant by 'we must all'? Is all the lost since the beginning of time through the end of time being addressed as well? It could be involving, since it says good or bad, not all of the lost as well, IOW, just some of the lost, as in OSAS and NOSAS.

 

[CTK]

Let me remind you of what you had said. You said this:

You said you believe what you described "represents "today's accepted interpretation" which came across as though you were saying that what you described was the most frequent interpretation being accepted today. Yet, I don't know even one person who believes what you described. So, that's why I'm asking where you got that from.

I thought I said that "today's accepted interpretations" reflect one resurrection and judgement not multiple... which is the reason I was having so much difficulty when accounting for the literal verses in revelation - which is why I presented each of them in detail to have others look at them as I was seeing and tell me... no, this verse is not saying this or that, but I can see how you might be interpreting multiple resurrections...

As for the GWTJ, I believe scripture clearly teaches that there is just one judgment of all people. Not two or more judgments or judgment days as premils believe.

Agreed.

So, I believe that all people will be judged at the same judgment. That will include all of the saved and lost. It will include all of the dead who will be resurrected to face judgment.

So you are saying the GWTRJ is also for those who spent the 1000 years with Jesus?

I believe that judgment is described by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46. It will occur just after He comes with His angels. I believe it will occur in the realm of eternity because Revelation 20:11 indicates that it will take place neither on earth nor in heaven. The idea of each person being judged in the realm of time seems ludicrous, anyway. That will take an incredibly long time for Jesus to judge every person one by one. In eternity, it won't matter how much time it takes. Time won't even exist anymore. We don't know yet what that will be like, but it will be different than what we know now.

Well, I don't understand why you could place restraints on how long it would take God to judge... and then continue to mention there is no time anyway.... So, back to my question ... we have Jesus returning and where He will take with Him those dead and alive who placed their faith in Him... they will be with Him for 1000 years. Those that were alive at this time who rejected Him would be destroyed by the sword of His mouth. Now, there are only two groups - those with Christ and those dead in the grave that have rejected Him - all times..

After the 1000 years, God raises up the dead and satan and destroys them with fire and they are sent to the lake of fire. Now, this I believe represents "today's accepted interpretations." Do you agree?

So, the only thing left for me to consider in my outline before working on a narrative is to address the last "event" that is mentioned - the GWTRJ. And my question is simply.... does this event require and imply another resurrection and destructive event because it is places after the destruction of fire...... And in 20:11-15, I do not see anything that tells me that this GWTRJ is for anyone other than the "dead"... which of course would exclude those that have been with Jesus for the 1000 years.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Gog’s army would attack on horseback, carrying swords, war clubs and spears. In verses 5-7, Ezekiel identifies Gog’s allies as Persia, Cush, Put, Gomer, Beth-Togarmah. The nations that fought with these literal ancient weapons were literal ancient nations. There is no need to extrapolate this into modern weapons or nations.

No you misunderstood. God, much of the time, speaks through the use of parables containing symbols, allegories, metaphors, etc., all in picturesque language.

Simply put, God is stating that at the end of the symbolical thousand years, which is a reference to the New Testament Church Age, Satan will then be released from his prison and shall then go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth - Gog and Magog. It appears quite clear then that Gog and Magog are two names that represent the peoples of the world even if Gog represents Satan before being loosed (under the roof) and Magog represents Satan after being loosed (out from under the roof). These are the multitudes that are under Satan’s influence and are fighting his battles for him. Satan is Satan and cannot be Gog and Magog but rather Gog and Magog appear to be the armies of Satan; the armies of the world; the armies from the four quarters of the earth.

The battle of Gog and Magog is a spiritual war WITHIN, and ONLY WITHIN the congregation of God making up of True Elect and Professed Christians. The nations of Ezekiel 38 are a type of professed Christians who used to work within the church as merchants of the Gospel. Remember, God is using both His Elect and His Unsaved Professed Christians to build church together for the past 2,000 years until all Elect has been secured. Then God will remove his restrained hand so that the spirit Satan within the professed Christians will turn and wage war against the True Elect. This is why the enemies are wearing the same armor and weapons as the Elect to show that they are part of God's congregation but corporately or externally just as the court which is without the temple in Revelation 1:2 will suffer judgment.

So, I do believe that the battle of Gog and Magog is taking place because the church all over the world has fallen into apostasy BECAUSE of the "rise of false prophets and christs" that Christ warned about in Matthew 24. And when we see the abomination of desolation take place in churches where it ought not, we will know that we need to leave the church to avoid the plagues that GOd will send upon his unfaithful church.

Therefore, you are wasting time looking for some literal nations or empires in the Middle East that you believe will prepare for a war with literal weapons against national Israel. It is because you are looking at wrong Israel and wrong Gog and Magog.