CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Are you purposely attempting to deceive people? Strong's doesn't say what you claim.
Not ALL the physically dead are raised at the same time, the dead in Christ rise FIRST.
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Strong says exactly what I claim, because I've cited him verbatim.
And not what you claim. You're deceiving only yourself.
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God dealt with them according to their sin. Their race was irrelevant. It didn't save them then.
It doesn't save them now despite your protestations to the contrary.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
You made a mistake. The Strong's entry for 1290 reads as follows.
1290 diasporá (from 1223 /diá, "through," intensifying 4687 /speírō, "sow or scatter seed," which is the root of sperma, "seed") – properly, thoroughly scatter, distribute seed widely.
1290 (diaspora) is used figuratively of the Jews in NT times. They were literally scattered throughout the Roman empire (i.e. dispersed) and therefore called "the Diaspora."
[1290 (diasporá) properly refers to Israelites exiled to foreign lands, i.e. Jews residing outside of Palestine (see Jn 7:35).]
Peter is talking to Israelites who have been formerly exiled to foreign lands and remain scattered throughout the Roman empire. James uses the same word in his epistle.
James 1:1
James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: [1290] Greetings.
He is talking to the twelve tribes.
I am trying to help you.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Did I say that God chose a race to save them? I don't think I did. I have been discussing this topic with several people so perhaps you didn't read my earlier post. Peter tells his readers why God chose their race. Take note of Peter's explanation below.
1 Peter 2:9-10 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
Peter reminds his readers that God chose the descendants of Jacob "so that they might proclaim the excellencies of him who called [them] into the light." They were offered eternal life just like everyone else and on the same terms as everyone else. However, the descendants of Jacob are the only chosen race of people who are called to proclaim his excellencies.
1 Peter 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
Have you used this verse as an argument? The key phrase being 'your fathers'. In the OT and in the NT when that particular phrase is used in whatever the context might be involving at the time, it is never meaning Gentile fathers as far as I can tell. So why would it mean Gentile fathers here, right? Clearly, the ones being adddressed in verse 18 are the ones being addressed in verse 1.
To me it makes no sense for anyone to insist Gentiles are meant in verse 1 when 18 doesn't even support that.
Still willfully blind, aren't you.
◄ 1290. diaspora ► "sojourners far away from home, in Pontus, 1 Peter 1:1" That is the only reference to 1 Peter 1:1 in the descriptions of the diaspora. Get some new eyes. |
That is in fact a direct allusion to the Gentile constituency in the the Church. As Adam Clarke explains:
"Which in time past were not a people - This is a quotation from Hosea 1:9, Hosea 1:10; Hosea 2:23, where the calling of the Gentiles, by the preaching of the Gospel, is foretold. From this it is evident, that the people to whom the apostle now addresses himself had been Gentiles, covered with ignorance and superstition, and now had obtained mercy by the preaching of the Gospel of Christ."
Whom to believe?
1. You
2. Adam Clarke
Hint?
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Your post contains a link to 1290 diaspora. I just clicked on that link and it doesn't say what you say. That is a fact. It DOESN"T say sojourners far away from home. Please read it again.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Adam Clarke is wrong. Hosea is NOT talking about Gentiles. He refers to the Ten Tribes who broke away from the Original 12. At that time God referred to THEM as "not my people." Understand?That is in fact a direct allusion to the Gentile constituency in the the Church. As Adam Clarke explains:
"Which in time past were not a people - This is a quotation from Hosea 1:9, Hosea 1:10; Hosea 2:23, where the calling of the Gentiles, by the preaching of the Gospel, is foretold. From this it is evident, that the people to whom the apostle now addresses himself had been Gentiles, covered with ignorance and superstition, and now had obtained mercy by the preaching of the Gospel of Christ."
Whom to believe?
1. You
2. Adam Clarke
Hint?
Hosea discusses two houses: the House of Judah and the House of Israel. (Hosea 1:6-7)
After the Ten Tribes seceded from David's rule they moved north to worship at another temple. Eventually God brought Assyria against them and Assyria took the Northern Ten Tribes captive and eventually the Ten Tribes were scattered among the Gentiles. God referred to THEM as "not my people." And Peter wrote to them to tell them the good news that God forgives them and that they can find favor with God through Jesus Christ.
I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm asking you to read the OT and discover the truth yourself.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Why don't you try reading the rest of the NT? Paul relates Hosea 1:10 to both Jews and Gentiles.
Romans 9:24 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
But, I know you don't believe in using scripture to interpret scripture, so I don't expect you to understand.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
The crux of our differing interpretations lies in our assumptions about how the Apostles treat the OT. This is a key point that shapes our respective approaches to scripture interpretation.
You believe that the NT authors are allowed to change the meaning of the OT in order to conform it to the New Testament. I, on the other hand, believe that the NT authors employ the OT to prove their point.
Thus, a fair review of Hosea 1:10 finds no mention of Gentile nations or people. Hosea is discussing a comparison between the house of Judah and the House of Israel, and in that discussion he says that the sons of Israel will be as numerous as the sand of the sea.
Okay?
Now compare that with Romans 9:23-24, where Paul makes the same comparison.
Romans 9:23-34
And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
Since Paul employs a passage from Hosea, which is NOT talking about Gentiles but IS talking about sons of Israel, we conclude that Paul is comparing the House of Judah (from among the Jews) with the House of Israel (from among the Gentiles), using the term "Gentiles" as a metonymy based on location.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Nonsense! That is not what I believe! I believe they give the true meaning of the OT by the Holy Spirit which may not always be apparent in the text itself.
Whatever that even means.
It doesn't matter. Is there any clear mention in the Old Testament of Gentiles being fellow heirs with the Israelites of God's promises? No. Yet, it's still true. You don't understand that things were purposely hidden by God in the OT, but later revealed in the NT.
Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
LOL. You make things up in your imagination. He's clearly referring to non-Jew Gentiles there. But, go ahead and make scripture say what you want it to say, as usual.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I know that's what you believe. But I don't think you are correct. The true meaning of the OT is what the OT meant to say. The reason why Paul uses the OT is because he share a common understanding of what it means with his readers.
It isn't that difficult to understand. Paul proves his doctrine from the Old Testament because he believes that Divine revelation doesn't change.
Yes, it does. Suppose, after reading Romans chapter 9, that I conclude Paul is using Hosea in order to prove that the Gentiles are being called. I test my conclusion by reading Hosea and if I find that Hosea doesn't mention Gentiles, then I am compelled to correct my initial conclusion.
It depends on which promise is in view. Paul writes volumes to prove that the Gentiles are indeed fellow heirs with the Gentiles. The question is this. Did Paul intend to say this in Romans 9:24? And the answer is no, he isn't proving THAT point there. He is proving another point there.
No, I believe the OT is clear and unambiguous, which is why Paul can defend his teaching using that source.
A review of Hosea proves you wrong. If Gentiles are not mentioned there, then Paul wasn't talking about Gentiles.
When you act this way, you give yourself permission to avoid learning from me, which is unfortunate.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
If you insist on being foolish and ignoring what Paul actually wrote, that's on you. But, he clearly included the Gentiles as being part of what Hosea 1:10 is about.
Romans 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
He made the point that Gentiles are also called to salvation and then explained that by referencing Hosea 1:10. So, Paul clearly had a much better understanding of Hosea 1:10 than you do. I'll take Paul's interpretation of the OT over yours all day, every day.
LOL! As if there's anything I could learn from someone who foolishly denies the deity of Christ. You are hilarious.
It says exactly what I quoted.
Provide a link to your Strong 1290 and we'll see what it says.
I find this interesting that you bring this up.
Note also, that the dead who are in Christ, are also the "first to humble themselves". In other words, their character is exemplary.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I have paid attention to what Paul wrote. I understand it differently than you do. According to you, the apostles can make up and invent novel interpretations of a passage to suit their odd doctrine. In my view, the apostles base their doctrines on the OT as written.
I disagree with your interpretation because it fails to account for the context. The apostle finished his argument concerning universal salvation in the first 8 chapters of Romans. Chapter 9 begins his argument concerning God's promise to Israel and why salvation depends on choosing individuals from among them. Romans 9:24 intends to include the Northern Ten tribes who were scattered among the Gentiles. He proves this from Hosea 1:10.
Romans chapters 9 through 11 focus on Israel and the Israelites. The phrase "those from among the Jews" indicates Israelites born into the two southern tribes, and the phrase "those from among the Gentiles" indicates Israelites born into the ten northern tribes. This interpretation is consistent with Hosea as written.
Your loss. Just sayin'
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
You don't seem to understand. I clicked on the link that YOU provided and it didn't say what you say. Understand?
Check out this link from Bible Hub 1290
Here is a summary
diaspora: a dispersion (Isr. in Gentile countries)
Original Word: διασπορά, ᾶς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: diaspora
Phonetic Spelling: (dee-as-por-ah')
Definition: a dispersion (Israelites in Gentile countries)
Usage: lit: scattering abroad of seed by the sower, hence: dispersion, used especially of the Jews who had migrated and were scattered over the ancient world.
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