The Second Death Destroys Man's False Amill Theory

[Davy]

Wait... is that some kind of double negative....? Wait... 'false'... one... 'argues'... two... 'against'... three... So a triple negative? or maybe it is just double because 'affirmation' is a positive... Okay so in the end what does that even mean? <smile>

That shows you might want to think about going back to school. A double negative means a sentence like, "I can't find my keys nowhere," or, "I don't see nothing". Just using the word 'false' in a sentence does not mean a double negative. Now using the word 'ugly' in a sentence with 'ain't', or 'perk near', that might be considered double negatives; like, "Ain't that person perk near just ugly?" Since you listed being from Nashville, you ought be well familiar with all that.

Thank you for posting. All are called, regarding the general call of the Gospel to all mankind ~ so all people ~ to repent and believe. But few are chosen ~ and thus Christians who believe in Jesus, so fewer than all people, of course ~ in the exact sense in which Jesus is speaking in John 15:16, where He says to His disciples (and you and me, by extension, as we are followers of Jesus), "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide...", So, obviously, those who are not His followers ~ which is indeed many, far more than those who are ~ are not chosen in this way, and thus do not believe in Christ.

"Two kinds of believers"... that doesn't even make sense. Either one is a believer or he/she is not.

Thank you for bringing that up, Davy. Either one is a believer... and thus imputed the righteousness of Christ, and therefore in Christ... or not. Like Jacob versus Esau...

Grace and peace to you.

You still don't understand the difference.

1. 'called' only = CAN still be deceived and fall away.

2. 'called' and 'chosen' = CANNOT be deceived, nor fall away.

It's as simple as that.

 

[Davy]

One of the doctrines of men created by those who cannot grasp that some believers can... still be deceived and fall away, are those on the false 'Once Saved, Always Saved' doctrine of men.

For Christ's 'chosen', they truly CANNOT EVER be deceived and fall away, simply because Christ already owns these, and He can intervene directly with them, like He did with His Apostles.

A look at Apostle Paul's Epistles especially, reveals that 'some' believers on Christ can indeed fall away being deceived. And for us, Christ's Church, to not allow any man to deceive us was our Lord Jesus Christ first warning for the 'end' that He gave in His Olivet discourse.

In Matthew 24:24, Jesus warned about the coming of a pseudo-Christ ("false Christs" translation in the KJV, but it's actually singular tense in the Greek). That false Christ is to work great signs and wonders that IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, would deceive even His very elect. That's an example of His 'chosen' believers who CANNOT be deceived, not even by the coming pseudo-Christ/Antichrist at the end of this world.

The Revelation 13:8 Scripture is another example. It says all that dwell upon the earth shall worship that dragon whose names are NOT written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

Are those with their names already written in the Book of Life about the 'called' only that can still be deceived and fall away from Christ? No.

Only those already with their names written in that Book of Life are Christ's 'chosen', the very elect of that Matthew 24:24 verse and they cannot be deceived.

So that idea of 'Once saved, always saved' definitely can apply to Christ's 'chosen' very elect that CANNOT be deceived nor fall away, Matthew 24:24 being a prime example of that for the end of this world. But it cannot apply to those believers who are 'called' only that can still fall away.

Thus God's Word reveals 2 different groups of believers on Christ Jesus with what Jesus said about many being called, but few are chosen.

 

[PinSeeker]

That shows you might want to think about going back to school. A double negative means a sentence like, "I can't find my keys nowhere," or, "I don't see nothing". Just using the word 'false' in a sentence does not mean a double negative. Now using the word 'ugly' in a sentence with 'ain't', or 'perk near', that might be considered double negatives; like, "Ain't that person perk near just ugly?" Since you listed being from Nashville, you ought be well familiar with all that.

You either missed the fact that I was poking fun at you, or just take yourself way, way, WAY too seriously, or both. Goodness gracious. LOL! Even so, I did mean to point out the silliness of what you said, or at least how you said it.

Yeah, so here in Nashville, sometimes we say, "Bless your heart," and that's appropriate here. Bless your heart, Davy. LOL!

It's as simple as that.

That's the problem; your view is far to "simple."

You still don't understand the difference.

1. 'called' only = CAN still be deceived and fall away.

2. 'called' and 'chosen' = CANNOT be deceived, nor fall away.

See, this is very close, actually. Well, kinda. <smile> But certainly not indicating "two different kinds of believers;" rather, two different senses of being called. One has to understand that when Scripture speaks of a call, it does so in two senses, and somewhat similar to what you say here, actually:

Kind of like your number 1, there is a general outward call to repentance and belief that goes out to everyone in many ways, through Scripture, through the Gospel, even through creation itself. And of this call, I would say that all, because of their natural disposition of being "at enmity with God," will reject this call... unless and until... <smile> And some will seem to accept it and even think they believe for a time but realize at some point that they do not believe and will fall away... because they were never really of God, even though they may have for a time think they were ("They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But (Christians) have been anointed by the Holy One, and... have knowledge." ~ 1 John 2:19-20).

And then... kind of similar to your number 2... there is the call of God to salvation, which is issued inwardly to the heart by the Holy Spirit; this call is specific in the sense that it's only issued to God's elect. This call will never be rejected, because God has given the receiver a new spirit, even His Holy Spirit. He has been born again of the Spirit and is of God, and because of that new spirit within, he or she will never fall away... though he or she may stray from time to time ~ he/she may succumb to temptation from time to time; he/she may still be deceived from time to time ~ but will at some point subsequently "come to his/her senses," so to speak ~ be led by the Spirit ~ and be led out of that temptation and will return to the fold. So while there may be a temporary falling away, humanly speaking, he/she will never fall away completely, because he/she is kept by the Spirit ("...the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable" ~ Romans 11:29).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Davy]

You either missed the fact that I was poking fun at you, or just take yourself way, way, WAY too seriously, or both. Goodness gracious. LOL! Even so, I did mean to point out the silliness of what you said, or at least how you said it.

Yeah, so here in Nashville, sometimes we say, "Bless your heart," and that's appropriate here. Bless your heart, Davy. LOL!

Oh... I was actually poking fun back at you. I'm from the South too, and actually not too far from Nashville. But yeah, I am serious about God's Word, and very careful to not make jokes about His Word, even though our Heavenly Father does Himself have a sense of humor. See 1 Kings 18 when Elijah mocked the Baal prophets, obviously laughing at them while they were trying to call down their false Baal god to burn up their sacrifice, which was a contest Elijah proposed to them.

1 Kings 18:26-27
26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, 'O Baal, hear us.' But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.

27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
KJV

I don't believe Elijah would have mocked those Baal prophets on that unless God had given Elijah to do it, showing how God also felt about those Baal prophets and their false god.

That's the problem; your view is far to "simple."

God's Word is very simple, IF it is actually followed and kept as written with the help of The Holy Spirit. In Bible studies with some brethren, they wonder at how I am able to recall many Scriptures with what I'm covering (as we read the Bible text together, and I cross-reference to other Bible Scripture while doing so). It's not really me, it's the help of The Holy Spirit. Once the Bible student disciplines theirself in God's Word as written, line upon line, chapter by chapter, then The Holy Spirit can help bring those things into memory when needed. And God did tell His to speak plainly, and that means simply so one's level of education does not matter.

See, this is very close, actually. Well, kinda. <smile> But certainly not indicating "two different kinds of believers;" rather, two different senses of being called. One has to understand that when Scripture speaks of a call, it does so in two senses, and somewhat similar to what you say here, actually:

Of course those who are 'chosen' are 'called' also, but NOT... the other way around like you appear to be suggesting. When Jesus said "few" are chosen, He meant exactly that. So if you'd rather not believe what Jesus said about that, then you reveal you're having a problem with keeping His Word as written.

Kind of like your number 1, there is a general outward call to repentance and belief that goes out to everyone in many ways, through Scripture, through the Gospel, even through creation itself. And of this call, I would say that all, because of their natural disposition of being "at enmity with God," will reject this call... unless and until... <smile> And some will seem to accept it and even think they believe for a time but realize at some point that they do not believe and will fall away... because they were never really of God, even though they may have for a time think they were ("They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. But (Christians) have been anointed by the Holy One, and... have knowledge." ~ 1 John 2:19-20).

Once again, I caution you to remain in the simplicity of the Bible Scriptures. Not every believer is "chosen"...

Matt 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
KJV

So you cannot have it both ways with trying to claim that the word "many" means the same thing as "few".

We are given many Bible examples of God's 'chosen' elect. One of the Biblical signs of an Old Testament elect is God's blessing of a double-portion with God's Birthright, like with Joseph. Job especially had the sign of being one of God's chosen elect. And especially Jonah who tried to get out of doing the duty God had 'chosen' him for, but God made... Jonah do it even against his will. These matters are not difficult to understand, and they don't require and bunch of philosophy and spiritualization by men's doctrines. They are 'simple' things simply understood, as written.

 

[PinSeeker]

I am serious about God's Word...

As if I'm not... <eyeroll>

...and very careful to not make jokes about His Word...

The joke was at your expense, Davy, not about God's Word. Wow.

...Of course those who are 'chosen' are 'called' also, but NOT... the other way around like you appear to be suggesting.

I'm not suggesting what you think I'm suggesting. I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand, Davy, but again:

IN ONE SENSE, all are called... this is the outward general call of the Gospel to all to repent and believe. In this sense, Christ's atonement was/is unlimited.​

But...

IN A DIFFERENT SENSE, only God's elect/chosen are called, because the Spirit only works this inward call in the hearts of some/many and not all... those who God has mercy/compassion on by His grace. And by the way, this is the sense in which John Calvin's 'L' is couched; in this sense, Christ's atonement was only effective for the elect, so limited in this way.​

​

In short, Christ's atonement was applicable to all... so unlimited in that sense, "to take away the sins of the world"... but applied to only a few... limited in that sense, He died only for "His sheep," those "given to Him by the Father, of which He will lose not one, but raise them up on the last day."

When Jesus said "few" are chosen, He meant exactly that.

Absolutely.

So if you'd rather not believe what Jesus said about that, then you reveal you're having a problem with keeping His Word as written.

<eyeroll>

Not every believer is "chosen"...

Matt 22:14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
KJV

Again... Many receive the outward call of the Gospel (see above), and that many should be understood in the sense of all people.

Also again, yes, few are chosen, and the few chosen are the ones who receive the inward call of God by His Spirit, and thus come to belief in Christ.

So, to rephrase what you say above, each and every one chosen then comes to belief in Christ... which I think you agree with... because of the renewing word of the Spirit in that person's heart. And by the way, this is, through and through, the 'I' of John Calvin's five points, Irresistible Grace. But to your point, yes, in comparison to those who do not receive this inward call, yes, the chosen ~ God's elect ~ are few.

My goodness.

So you cannot have it both ways with trying to claim that the word "many" means the same thing as "few".

Not trying to do anything of the sort. See above.

They are 'simple' things simply understood, as written.

I agree with this... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Davy.

 

[Davy]

The joke was at your expense, Davy, not about God's Word. Wow.

Telling jokes at the pulpit is an abomination the way I see it. Those called to preach Gods Word at the pulpit have a duty to stay focused on that, and NOT men's university mass communication doctrines of how to do public speaking. One of the main jobs of The Old Testament Israelite priest was to read The Word of God to the people, and give the people the meaning of what was read.

So it's bad enough that many preachers think to tell jokes at the pulpit to try and get the congregation's attention, treating the congregation like little children competing for their attention. But doing it in writings all of sudden, when a serious Bible topic is being discussed, it's difficult at times to discern whether one is joking or not. I don't like to do it because though I am not from Britain, my mother always said that I have a very 'dry sense of humor' and should have been born British. So my sense of humor can at times sound sarcastic when I'm actually joking, because it usually requires the receiver to think a little bit about what was said. I don't mix that with covering God's written Word.

I'm not suggesting what you think I'm suggesting. I'm not sure why this is so hard for you to understand, Davy, but again:

IN ONE SENSE, all are called... this is the outward general call of the Gospel to all to repent and believe. In this sense, Christ's atonement was/is unlimited.​

But...

IN A DIFFERENT SENSE, only God's elect/chosen are called, because the Spirit only works this inward call in the hearts of some/many and not all... those who God has mercy/compassion on by His grace. And by the way, this is the sense in which John Calvin's 'L' is couched; in this sense, Christ's atonement was only effective for the elect, so limited in this way.​

​

In short, Christ's atonement was applicable to all... so unlimited in that sense, "to take away the sins of the world"... but applied to only a few... limited in that sense, He died only for "His sheep," those "given to Him by the Father, of which He will lose not one, but raise them up on the last day."

Oh, I well understand what you are trying... to say.

You just aren't taking the time to understand what I... am saying, which again I point to Jesus' Prayer in John 17. You really need to go over that whole John 17 Chapter.

When Jesus He prayed not only for His very elect 'chosen' sent Apostles, but also those who would believe on Him by 'their' word (meaning by the Apostle's preaching of The Gospel), He was revealing two separate groups of believers. In that John 17 chapter He showed that The Father first owned the Apostles, and gave them to Lord Jesus. So 'ownership' is a major theme of that John 17 Chapter about His 'chosen'... 'sent' ones, Christ's Apostles. To be 'sent' is what the Greek word for 'apostle' means.

And then within that same statement by Lord Jesus, He desired that BOTH groups become one in Him and in The Father. That idea is specific to a matter about the two groups of believers.

1. For Christ's 'sent' chosen ones, they already are 'one' with Him and The Father, meaning already owned, and thus not of this world, sent like Lord Jesus. That is why God can directly intervene in their lives 'without their asking'.

2. But for those called only, and are not 'chosen' sent ones, which is the most of us believers, WHEN... we stay 'faithful' in Christ, walking by The Spirit, then we are INCLUDED as being the very elect along with Christ's sent chosen ones, and become 'one' in Christ and in The Father. The difference is though, those 'called' only CAN still choose to 'fall away' from Christ, while those sent chosen ones cannot ever fall away from Christ. For the 'called' only, we must stay focused on Christ and His Word, and remain faithful all the way to the end, by our own... free will. God will only intervene with the 'called' IF they ask Him, and not before.