22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Illuminator]

The only thing stupid and absurd is your incomprehension.

Paste a verbatim quote in which I "say the pope is over God".

You have flooded the thread with the same garbage at least 3 times, now you want a verbatim quote of what I said. Obviously, you are playing word games because your falsehoods have been exposed. So you RUN from post #8326 and continue to congratulate your delusions.

 

[Illuminator]

"...by virtue of which it is established that he is over the church..." is what you cannot comprehend, you force it to say the pope is over God, which is stupid and absurd. "over the church", not over God. Grow up. Besides, you reject what amounts to your version of the papacy in the first place, a standard straw man fallacy.

A Protestant Asks Scott Hahn to Prove the Papacy... w/ Scott Hahn and Cameron Bertuzzi​

Amongst the assailants of the Church, there are very many the vehemence of whose declamation is in precise proportion to their ignorance of the doctrines they condemn. Such persons cure rather objects for pity. They will not, of course, take the Church’s teaching from herself; for then it may not be so easy to refute it. They persistently attribute to her doctrines which she does not hold, and so they readily refute the phantoms of their own creation. They act just like those pagans of whom Tertullian said: ‘They are unwilling to hear, what, if heard, they could not condemn.’

Covantee runs

 

[covenantee]

And I recognize your complete inability to pay attention by your idiotically posting the following from post #8317 - after I told you that faith comes from HEARING the Word of God (Rom. 10:17):
"So it's a Catholic sin to read the Word" . . .

Congratulations on an error-free post.

Can you do it again?

 

[covenantee]

Covantee runs

Who is Covantee?

 

[Illuminator]

Who is Covantee?

A spelling error you make a fuss about because that's all you can do.

 

[WPM]

Here we go again . . .

I've shoiwn you the current statistics of the decline of Christianity across the boared.
But, in the depths of your ignorance and itter denial - you live in a fantasy world . . .

LOL. Romanism is in free-fall. Where I was born, and have lived most of my life in Ireland (the heart of Romanism globally), it is on the ropes. It is decimated. The church in that country is riddled with scandals and pedophiles. When I arrived in America, CNN run a documentary on 5000 charged pedophile priests in the USA. That does not include all the secret perversion. The institution is corrupt to the core.

 

[covenantee]

A spelling error you make a fuss about because that's all you can do.

A church claiming to be the only true church that cannot even spell "covenant".

Thanks for the guffaws.

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL. Romanism is in free-fall. Where I was born, and have lived most of my life in Ireland (the heart of Romanism globally), it is on the ropes. It is decimated. The church in that country is riddled with scandals and pedophiles. When I arrived in America, CNN run a documentary on 5000 charged pedophile priests in the USA. That does not include all the secret perversion. The institution is corrupt to the core.

Then I feel sorry for Romansts.
I am a Catholic. so that's all I'm onvered with.

As I’ve ALREADY shown you – the number of PROTESTANT pew-fillers is rapidly-declining as well. This problem plagues ALL of Christianity – from Christ’s Catholic Church all the way down to your man-made “denominations” . . .
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/


And as I've educated YOU and your ignorant friends here on MANY occasions - the molestation problem is FAR WORSE in you Protestant circles than I the Catholic Church.

According to the FBI and Insurance statistics as documented in the book Pedophiles and Priests by Protestant author Philip Jenkins – the ONLY reason the Catholic Church was such a target for the layers was because of its perceived wealth.

However – the numbers are HIGHER in YOUR sects . . .
How Protestant Churches Hid Sexual Abuse ...
A History of Sex Abuse in the Protestant Imagination
FAQ: Sexual Abuse by Protestant Clergy - The Doan Law Firm
1 in 10 Young Protestants Have Left a Church Over Abuse
Evangelicals ‘worse’ than Catholics on sexual abuse
Evangelical Sex Abuse Record ‘Worse’ Than Catholic, Says Billy Graham’s Grandson
Protestants can no longer dismiss abuse as a ‘Catholic problem’
Child Sex Abuse More Prevalent Among Protestants Than Among Catholics
There Is More Sexual Abuse In The Protestant Churches Than Catholic
Catholic priests no guiltier of sex abuse than other clergy
Data Shed Light on Child Sexual Abuse by Protestant Clergy
Blogger Who Exposed Protestant Sex Abuse Cover Up Sued By Her Pastor
Denial About Sexual Abuse In Evangelical Churches
Southern Baptists Apologize For Sex Abuse Coverups
U.S. Protestants’ Views Mixed about Extent of Clergy Sexual Abuse
Churchgoers Split on Existence of More Sexual Abuse by Pastors
Confronting Evangelical Enabling of Sexual Abuse
Child abuse a Calvinist problem, podcast says
Protestant Churches Grapple With Growing Sexual Abuse Crisis

 

[WPM]

Then I feel sorry for Romansts.
I am a Catholic. so that's all I'm onvered with.

As I’ve ALREADY shown you – the number of PROTESTANT pew-fillers is rapidly-declining as well. This problem plagues ALL of Christianity – from Christ’s Catholic Church all the way down to your man-made “denominations” . . .
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2019/10/17/in-u-s-decline-of-christianity-continues-at-rapid-pace/


And as I've educated YOU and your ignorant friends here on MANY occasions - the molestation problem is FAR WORSE in you Protestant circles than I the Catholic Church.

According to the FBI and Insurance statistics as documented in the book Pedophiles and Priests by Protestant author Philip Jenkins – the ONLY reason the Catholic Church was such a target for the layers was because of its perceived wealth.

However – the numbers are HIGHER in YOUR sects . . .
How Protestant Churches Hid Sexual Abuse ...
A History of Sex Abuse in the Protestant Imagination
FAQ: Sexual Abuse by Protestant Clergy - The Doan Law Firm
1 in 10 Young Protestants Have Left a Church Over Abuse
Evangelicals ‘worse’ than Catholics on sexual abuse
Evangelical Sex Abuse Record ‘Worse’ Than Catholic, Says Billy Graham’s Grandson
Protestants can no longer dismiss abuse as a ‘Catholic problem’
Child Sex Abuse More Prevalent Among Protestants Than Among Catholics
There Is More Sexual Abuse In The Protestant Churches Than Catholic
Catholic priests no guiltier of sex abuse than other clergy
Data Shed Light on Child Sexual Abuse by Protestant Clergy
Blogger Who Exposed Protestant Sex Abuse Cover Up Sued By Her Pastor
Denial About Sexual Abuse In Evangelical Churches
Southern Baptists Apologize For Sex Abuse Coverups
U.S. Protestants’ Views Mixed about Extent of Clergy Sexual Abuse
Churchgoers Split on Existence of More Sexual Abuse by Pastors
Confronting Evangelical Enabling of Sexual Abuse
Child abuse a Calvinist problem, podcast says
Protestant Churches Grapple With Growing Sexual Abuse Crisis

Romanist fake news to cover up the pedophile epidemic in your "church." Even the dogs in the street know the "Church" of Rome is corrupt to the core.

 

[Illuminator]

Romanist fake news to cover up the pedophile epidemic in your "church." Even the dogs in the street know the "Church" of Rome is corrupt to the core.

None of the sources used by BofL are Catholic, so how is the secular/Christian media sources "Romanist fake news"???
Playing the 'sex abuse card' against Catholics always backfires, your reply is a childish temper tantrum. Please explain to me how the world's largest charity is corrupt to the core. The real anti-Catholic "fake news" is pretending nothing has been done to correct the problem.

CLERGY SEXUAL ABUSE NEAR ZERO PERCENT​

Catholic League president Bill Donohue comments on the latest data on clergy sexual abuse:
The United States Conference of Catholic Bishop’ Secretariat of Child and Youth Protection has released its audit on clergy sexual abuse that covers the period July 1, 2018 – June 30, 2019.

During this time, there were 37 allegations made by current minors. Eight were substantiated, 7 were unsubstantiated, 6 were unable to be proven, 12 are still being investigated, 3 were referred to religious orders, and 1 was referred to another diocese.

Of the 49,972 members of the clergy (33,628 priests and 16,344 deacons), .07% (37) had an accusation made against them for abusing a minor. However, since only .016% (8) could be substantiated, that means that 99.98% of priests did not have a substantiated accusation made against them.

In other words, clergy sexual abuse is near 0%.

It is hardly surprising that the media are ignoring this story. The only stories about the Catholic Church that they see fit to print or air are those that put the Church in a negative light. That they wallow in dirt cannot be denied.

CLERGY SEXUAL ABUSE NEAR ZERO PERCENT - Catholic League

Catholic League president Bill Donohue comments on the latest data on clergy sexual abuse:

www.catholicleague.org

Guide to Understanding Basic CDF Procedures concerning Sexual Abuse Allegations

www.vatican.va

Abuse of minors. The Church's response

Abuse of minors. The Church's response

www.vatican.va

Abuse Victims Share ‘Wounded Heart’ with Pope Francis After Bike Trek From Germany

In all, 15 abuse victims, together with friends and family members, arrived in Rome this week after setting off on bicycles on May 6 from Munich, the capital of Bavaria in southern Germany.

www.ncregister.com

Pope expands sex abuse law and reaffirms adults can be victims

Pope Francis updated Church laws to reaffirm that adults can be victims of predator priests, expanding on temporary measures introduced in 2019 after decades-long abuse crises.

www.nbcnews.com

here's a list of Protestant leaders who met face to face with victims

 

[BreadOfLife]

Romanist fake news to cover up the pedophile epidemic in your "church." Even the dogs in the street know the "Church" of Rome is corrupt to the core.

WRONG.
Not a SINGLE Catholic news source. They are all from either Ptotestant or secular sourced like:

- Christianity Today​

- The Huffington Post​

- Christian Century​

- The Guardian​

- The Washington Post​

- Lifeway Research​

- Adventist Record​

- Baptist News Global​

Living in complete a nd itter denial about the pedophilia problem within Protestantism.
That's what I thougt . . .

 

[Illuminator]

Romanist fake news to cover up the pedophile epidemic in your "church." Even the dogs in the street know the "Church" of Rome is corrupt to the core.

The Homeless in every city know where to get a hot meal and free counselling services, and they don't need to swim the Tiber River to get there.

(Matt. 25:41-45)

Christians through the ages have sought to take the example and words of Jesus to heart and to live them in social settings very different from ancient Palestine. Catholic social teaching is an offspring of this effort.

Catholic social teaching is complex, linked with changing social conditions and deepening understandings of both the work of God in history and ethical principles. Nevertheless, this complexity can be summarized imperfectly in terms of seven key principles of Catholic social teaching.

I. Respect the Human Person​

The foundation for Catholic social thought is the proper understanding and value of the human person. In the words of Pope John Paul II, the foundation of Catholic social teaching “is a correct view of the human person and of his unique value, inasmuch as ‘man … is the only creature on earth which God willed for itself.’ God has imprinted his own image and likeness on man (cf. Gen 1:26), conferring upon him an incomparable dignity” (Centesimus Annus 11). In a sense, all Catholic social teachings articulate the ethical implications of a proper understanding of the dignity of the person.

The concept of “human rights” has been adopted by popes to communicate that each and every human being, as a child of God, has certain immunities from harm by others and merits certain kinds of treatment. In particular, the Church has been forceful in defending the right to life of every single innocent human being from conception to natural death. Opposition to abortion and euthanasia forms the necessary foundation for respecting human dignity in other areas such as education, poverty, and immigration.

Based on this foundational right to life, human beings also enjoy other rights. In this, the Church joins with a chorus of other voices in proclaiming the dignity of the person and the fundamental rights of man. Nevertheless, this apparent consensus conceals very serious disagreements about the nature and scope of these rights. One of the most controversial of these areas in present culture is the understanding of the family.

II. Promote the Family​

The human person is not simply an individual but is also a member of a community. Failing to acknowledge the community aspect leads to a radical individualism. A full understanding of the person considers the social aspects of the individual. The first social consideration, in order and importance, is the family. It is the basic unit of society, and it predates and in a sense surpasses all other societies in a community. Catholic social teaching emphasizes the importance of the family, in particular the importance of fostering stable marriages where children are welcomed and educated.

The wider social network plays an important role in promoting the family. In particular, the Church has spoken of a “family wage” whereby one breadwinner can adequately support spouse and children. Social conditions either contribute to the stabilization or the destabilization of family structures. Social conditions that destabilize include mandatory and unreasonably long work hours, a toxic “social culture” that denigrates fidelity, legal dissolution of the definition of marriage between one man and one woman, and excessive taxation.

III. Protect Property Rights​

Catholic social teaching from Leo XIII’s Rerum Novarum (1891) through John Paul II’s Centesimus Annus (1991) has defended the right to private property against the claim that the state should own all things. Even much earlier, St. Thomas Aquinas—whose writings are of central importance in understanding the foundations of Catholic social teaching—gave three reasons why private property is essential to human flourishing:

IV. Work for the Common Good​

V. Observe the Principle of Subsidiarity​

VI. Respect Work and the Worker​

VII. Pursue Peace and Care for the Poor​

 

[Timtofly]

This is NOT a “separate” event from 2 Thess. 4:13-18.
It is the FINAL Judgement where ALL will be judged.

It includes ALL of those who have died – and ALL of those who are alive at Christ’s return.

That is not what Scripture says. That would be your own interpretation outside of Scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

I already showed you Revelation 1:5-6. Did you not read it? Do you see there that John talked about Christ being the ruler of the kings of the earth and believers at that time having been made priests in Christ's kingdom? Why would that have not continued for believers from then on?

I was referring to after the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

Up until the Middle Ages, MANY spurious, incorrect and outright heretical versions of Scripture made their way around. It might ALSO interest you to know that up to 75% of the public was functionally ILLITERATE – so only rich, educated people could read them anyway.

Sounds like the church failed humanity. If it were not for the Reformation, the church would have kept failing humanity forever.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That is not what Scripture says. That would be your own interpretation outside of Scripture.

No - that is what it IS - but for those of you who live in denial.

 

[PinSeeker]

I am a Catholic. so that's all I'm onvered with.

Do you mean to say "covered with," here? Oh well, no matter. What I would say to this is that I am catholic too... part of Christ's one holy, apostolic, catholic ~ universal ~ Church. And as of right now, that Church is invisible, meaning that we don't know for sure who all is actually a Member at present or will be at some point in the future. We can know for ourselves, because we know God is working in us, and we can have opinions regarding others based on the outward evidence ~ their works, their fruit, (or lack thereof) of the faith they say they have.

...the number of PROTESTANT pew-fillers is rapidly-declining as well. This problem plagues ALL of Christianity...

Ah... "plagues"... well more on that in a moment. But yes, pew-fillers, church-goers... sure, there is a shakedown occurring, which I think is what you're saying here. There has always been a discrepancy between the number of those professing to be Christians and those to whom God has actually given true faith ~ His assurance and conviction ~ those for whom He has "taken out the heart of stone and given a heart of flesh." God, through the prophet Ezekiel says this very thing:

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules." (Ezekiel 36:25-27)​

God alone sees ~ and changes, regarding His elect ~ the heart. He works salvation in us. This is how He builds His kingdom, His Church, which is not a building or an institution or a particular organization, it is a people, His people. He calls this people unto Himself, regardless of anything else other than His sovereignty and His glory. And He will, in the fullness of time, bring it to completion. As Paul says:

"So then (we) are no longer strangers and aliens, but (we) are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him (we) also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:19-22).​

God is doing this. God was doing this then, when Paul wrote that, 2000+ years ago, and He is doing it now! And So, the number of believers has always been increasing; God has been, is, and is continuing to build His kingdom. And one day ~ maybe one day very soon, even in our own terms ~ the fullness of the Gentiles will have been brought in and the partial hardening that is upon Israel removed, and in this way all of God's Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25-26).

As for "plaguing Christianity," it can be concerning or even distressing, seeming that there is no longer any growth, but that's not true; as I said, God is bringing Israel to its full number... He has not stopped or quit, or "given up." :) I would actually call this "plague" a good thing; God is making His Church more and more visible, and more and more pure.

– from Christ’s Catholic Church all the way down to your man-made “denominations” . . .

I'm sure there will be disagreement here, but the Catholic Church ~ like the Protestant "Church of Christ," among other examples ~ is a denomination. That's really not a disparagement, or a ridicule, or a denigration of Catholics ~ or members of the Protestant "Church of Christ" ~ in any way, although, certainly there will be many, and you may be one, who bristle at or take umbrage to that. Hey, there are many who don't want to be associated with any particular denomination, so they call themselves non-denominational Christians, but the irony in that is that they have created the Non-Denominational denomination... :) ...of which there are many variations, so there are actually many non-denominational denominations, which is ironic indeed. :)

But you know... here again, I would actually call it a good thing in a way, because we are striving for ~ we all want this great unity Paul is speaking of in Ephesians 4:1-16. But, because of sin, we may disagree concerning things, even Biblical things. Most should not be cause to break fellowship, but some are, obviously, so we congregate with folks who we agree with and strive for unity as much as possible... and long for the day when there will be no more sin or disagreement. It's going to happen... :)

And pulling back in what I just said, God is building His kingdom, and his construction is not confined to any one denomination. :) Included are people from every tongue, tribe, and nation, and will be as the grains of sand on the seashore, as the stars in the heavens... an innumerable multitude.

But for now... :) For now, I would implore, beseech, and encourage us all to not perpetuate and stir up any more dissention or disagreement or contention than there already is. :)

Grace and peace to all!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sounds like the church failed humanity. If it were not for the Reformation, the church would have kept failing humanity forever.

The Church rescued humanity.

Regardless of the high illiteracy rate of the first 1500 years of the Church – the people could still HEAR the Word of God at Mass and had access to some of the most beautiful artistic depictions of Scriptural events – thanks to the Church having commissioned them.

What do you think all of those paintings and statues were for if not to educate and edify the illiterate Body??

 

[Michiah-Imla]

all of those paintings and statues

“Neither shalt thou set thee up any image; which the LORD thy God hateth.” (Deuteronomy 16:22)​

 

[BreadOfLife]

Do you mean to say "covered with," here? Oh well, no matter. What I would say to this is that I am catholic too... part of Christ's one holy, apostolic, catholic ~ universal ~ Church. And as of right now, that Church is invisible, meaning that we don't know for sure who all is actually a Member at present or will be at some point in the future. We can know for ourselves, because we know God is working in us, and we can have opinions regarding others based on the outward evidence ~ their works, their fruit, (or lack thereof) of the faith they say they have.

Nonsense.
The Church is not “invisible” – but a VISIBLE entity,

Jesus told His disciples:
Matt. 5:14-16
“You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

Jesus’s prescription for settling matters between brothers in Matt. 18:15-18 could NOT happen within an “invisible” Church.

Also – unless you are Baptized and submit to the Authority of the Bishop oof Rome - you are NOT a Catholic.

Ah... "plagues"... well more on that in a moment. But yes, pew-fillers, church-goers... sure, there is a shakedown occurring, which I think is what you're saying here. There has always been a discrepancy between the number of those professing to be Christians and those to whom God has actually given true faith ~ His assurance and conviction ~ those for whom He has "taken out the heart of stone and given a heart of flesh." God, through the prophet Ezekiel says this very thing:

"I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules." (Ezekiel 36:25-27)​

God alone sees ~ and changes, regarding His elect ~ the heart. He works salvation in us. This is how He builds His kingdom, His Church, which is not a building or an institution or a particular organization, it is a people, His people. He calls this people unto Himself, regardless of anything else other than His sovereignty and His glory. And He will, in the fullness of time, bring it to completion. As Paul says:

"So then (we) are no longer strangers and aliens, but (we) are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him (we) also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:19-22).​

God is doing this. God was doing this then, when Paul wrote that, 2000+ years ago, and He is doing it now! And So, the number of believers has always been increasing; God has been, is, and is continuing to build His kingdom. And one day ~ maybe one day very soon, even in our own terms ~ the fullness of the Gentiles will have been brought in and the partial hardening that is upon Israel removed, and in this way all of God's Israel will be saved (Romans 11:25-26).

As for "plaguing Christianity," it can be concerning or even distressing, seeming that there is no longer any growth, but that's not true; as I said, God is bringing Israel to its full number... He has not stopped or quit, or "given up." :) I would actually call this "plague" a good thing; God is making His Church more and more visible, and more and more pure.

That’s quite n explanation – but the plain fact is that the numbers if those professing Christianity are indeed falling. Every major study and survey shows this alarming trend.

The doesn’t imply that God “loses” in the end. It DOES, however bolster Jesus’s warning that MOST will choose the broad path to destruction (Matt. 7:13).

I'm sure there will be disagreement here, but the Catholic Church ~ like the Protestant "Church of Christ," among other examples ~ is a denomination. That's really not a disparagement, or a ridicule, or a denigration of Catholics ~ or members of the Protestant "Church of Christ" ~ in any way, although, certainly there will be many, and you may be one, who bristle at or take umbrage to that. Hey, there are many who don't want to be associated with any particular denomination, so they call themselves non-denominational Christians, but the irony in that is that they have created the Non-Denominational denomination... :) ...of which there are many variations, so there are actually many non-denominational denominations, which is ironic indeed. :)

But you know... here again, I would actually call it a good thing in a way, because we are striving for ~ we all want this great unity Paul is speaking of in Ephesians 4:1-16. But, because of sin, we may disagree concerning things, even Biblical things. Most should not be cause to break fellowship, but some are, obviously, so we congregate with folks who we agree with and strive for unity as much as possible... and long for the day when there will be no more sin or disagreement. It's going to happen... :)

And pulling back in what I just said, God is building His kingdom, and his construction is not confined to any one denomination. :) Included are people from every tongue, tribe, and nation, and will be as the grains of sand on the seashore, as the stars in the heavens... an innumerable multitude.

But for now... :) For now, I would implore, beseech, and encourage us all to not perpetuate and stir up any more dissention or disagreement or contention than there already is. :)

Grace and peace to all!

The Catholic Church is not a “denomination”.

It is the Original Tree from Which the Protestant denominations were born – and continue to splinter to the tune of tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering factions that ALL teach different doctrines yet ALL claim that they were “led” to this confusion by the Holy Spirit.

On the night before He died, Jesus prayed fervently for the Unity of His Church – that it remain ONE – as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20:23).