22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

WHO said that "fruit" has to pertain to the same things in both instances??
It's not a fulfillment of a prophecy - but a mere figure of speech, Einistin.

Ummmm, I believe I gave you THREE other examples . . .

You have nothing of evidential worth to bring to the table outside of insults, bitterness and avoidance.

 

[Timtofly]

Where is this taught in scripture? Please stop just saying a bunch of things without backing up what you're saying with scripture. That is pointless and isn't going to make anyone take you seriously or convince anyone of anything.

Where in the book of Revelation does it say new rulers are born every generation?

 

[Timtofly]

The Judgement described in Matt. 25 I is for the ENTIRETY of mankind – living and dead.

When He “comes in glory” pertains to the Resurrection of the dead:
2 Thess. 4:13-18
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

EVERYBODY gets judged.

Those in Christ are not condemned. The verses that imply that those in Christ won’t be “judged” use a Greek word that means “condemned”. But we will ALL be judged.

No it is not. Can you even read who is judged? Only those alive on the earth. And only Israel, because they are the sheep and the goats.

The rest of humanity are the wheat and the tares.

 

[BreadOfLife]

True, context is the key to understanding. So why do you quote verses out of context? For instance, in Ro 11:22 who is Paul speaking of? I ask because in verses 1 & 2 Paul says that God shall not cast away His people whom He foreknows. Read in context we learn that salvation is according to the election of grace, and if by grace it cannot be of man's works. Whatever any man thinks he may do to be saved are of man's works and are not of grace.

Romans 11:1-6 (KJV) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Yes - and God will NOT cast away any of His people.

WHO are “His people”?? Those who DO His will (Matt. 7:21).

“His people” do not include those who only pay lip service by professing belief in Him yet do not do His will. NOR does they include those who were once faithful and later fell away.

ALL of His promises if “eternal life” are conditional on OUR endurance of faith.
Otherwise - ALL of the Biblical warnings about NOT falling away or we will LOSE our secure position would be nothing but contradictions.

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL. Do you actually expect anyone to buy this lame explanation? Think again. Your example was exposed as not being in the same context as the scripture passage from Matthew 7. Just admit that instead of embarrassing yourself with ridiculous responses like this.

HUH??

The CONTXT is the same.
The SUBJECT is not.

Learn the difference, Einstein . . .

So, since you gave 3 other examples, we should just ignore the fact that at least one of the examples you gave was not in the same context as the passage that comes from actual scripture (Matthew 7)? LOL. You are hilarious.

In other words – you’re stumped and can’t argue your way out of the other 2 examples.

Got it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I don't find this opinion proposed of Christians. I don't know of any brother or sister in Christ who would argue Christians are free to live like the devil and still have eternal life in Christ. The truth is that anyone who claims the name of Christ and believes we can do whatever we want and still be saved, IMO have not been born from above. They are in fact liars and deceivers!

Exactly.

And this makes the Protestant doctrine of “Eternal Security” conditional and NOT absolute.

 

[PinSeeker]

Uhhhh, that’s NOT what the Bible says.

Well, yes it is. We disagree.

2 Peter 2:20-22 For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Who is the "they" Peter is speaking of here, BOL? The "they" refers directly to "false teachers... who... secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who brought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction" and the "many" who "will follow" them. You might read back through that very chapter ~ just the previous paragraph or two should be more than enough. It is quite possible to all about Jesus, but still not know ~ virtually synonymous with love ~ Him, and Him not know that person. Indeed, at the Judgment, to many ~ despite what they had been convinced of ~ He will say to many, "Depart from me, for I never knew you."

Matt. 5:13 You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory . . .

God can use ~ season ~ anyone, even those who hate Him and/or are not called according to His purposes, for a time. And we have to bear in mind Jesus's purpose in His Olivet discourse... His overarching purpose was to proclaim the general call of the Gospel, that everyone is eligible. There is an inward call that is issued only to God's elect, which is what Paul is talking about in Romans 8 (see below), but what Jesus is talking about is the general, outward call to everyone.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

Sure he is, I agree... because they, presumably, have received this inward call, issued, as I said, by God via His Spirit. We can stumble/fall from time to time, and inevitably do, sinners that we are, but a good thing to remember here, I think, is what Jude says in his short letter, that God is able to keep us from stumbling:

"...to Him Who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen." (Jude 24-25).​

God gives us the TOOLS – but WE must cooperate with His grace.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "cooperating with His grace." I have an idea, but... :) But Paul speaks directly to this in all his letters/epistles, and maybe most clearly in Philippians 2:12-13, which I cite below. But to use the same language you are using here, God's promise ~ and all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus ~ is that even if, from time to time, we don't "cooperate with His grace," even so, "if (as John says) we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). And Paul also says that God, by the power and working of His Holy Spirit, is the one who sustains us to the end. What Paul writes to the Roman Christians (specifically in Romans 8) is magnificent:

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death... those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit... You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you... If the Spirit of Him Who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He Who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit Who dwells in you... For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by Whom we cry, 'Abba! Father!' The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs ~ heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ... The Spirit helps us in our weakness... And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son... And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified... we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us... neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."​

Since we have been granted these things, as Paul writes to the Philippians, we do most certainly have a great responsibility to live as becomes sons of God and followers of Christ, so we are to "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling," but this is because "it is God who works in (us)... to..." ~ so that we will ~ "...will and work for His good pleasure."

And I'm sure you will remember that Jesus Himself says, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Apologies; I didn't mean for this to be this long... :) But I will say this, that since God initially gives us the grace to believe in Him and to turn from self (it is God's kindness/grace that leads us to repentance; Romans 2:4), so it necessarily follows that He also gives us the grace to keep on trusting Him. Therefore. one simply cannot logically believe that salvation by God's grace ~ which is undeniable ~ and that it is possible to lose salvation through human failure at the same time. If we expect ourselves to maintain our faith and keep everything going, we fall under the reprimand of Paul, as he confronted the Galatian church by saying, "You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?... Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" (Galatians 3:1-3).

So. :) So... So, as I said/cited before, "(T)he gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29). And as Job finally acknowledges ~ and we should, too, because it's true ~ "(God's) purposes cannot be thwarted" (Job 42:2).

We worship such a great and awesome God, do we not? All thanks and glory be unto Him!

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

I don't find this opinion proposed of Christians. I don't know of any brother or sister in Christ who would argue Christians are free to live like the devil and still have eternal life in Christ. The truth is that anyone who claims the name of Christ and believes we can do whatever we want and still be saved, IMO have not been born from above. They are in fact liars and deceivers!

Agreed. And just regarding your second sentence here, if anyone truly is a brother or sister in Christ, he or she is then freed from slavery to sin and unrighteousness and thus a slave to righteousness. In other words, his or her whole inclination will be to live as becomes followers of Christ, because they are of God and no longer of... the, um, horned guy in red... :) So, yes, as BOL says, it is conditional, but that condition is met on God's initiative of grace, not our initiative, and sustained in us by His working in us, His power, not by our power. Our works are a the natural outflow of His work in us, both initially and through the course of our lives. Indeed, as Paul says, "we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10),

Grace and peace to you, RWB.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That's found in 1 Kings 10. Nothing whatever to do with your apocryphlub.

Strike 2.

Got any more winners?

Keep those guffaws coming.

Then, why is there no cross-reference to 1 Kings 10 in Matt. 12:42?

And I presented FOUR examples . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Strike 3.

More of that incomparable RC eisegesis.

Hebrews 11:35
Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

What women received their dead raised to life again in 2 Maccabees 7:1-42?

Give us a verbatim quote, not your imposed opinion.

Heb. 11:35 references TWO DIFFERENT events, Einstein.

Pail is listing events and people from the Old Testament:
Heb. 11:32-35
And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection.

It is the SECOND part of that verse that references Macc. 7.

EPIC FAIL on your part . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You have nothing of evidential worth to bring to the table outside of insults, bitterness and avoidance.

TRANSLATION:
“I cannot defend my position . . .”

Yes, I figured that.

 

[rwb]

Yes - and God will NOT cast away any of His people.

WHO are “His people”?? Those who DO His will (Matt. 7:21).

“His people” do not include those who only pay lip service by professing belief in Him yet do not do His will. NOR does they include those who were once faithful and later fell away.

ALL of His promises if “eternal life” are conditional on OUR endurance of faith.
Otherwise - ALL of the Biblical warnings about NOT falling away or we will LOSE our secure position would be nothing but contradictions.

Yes, we've established His people He will not cast away are the elect of God, those who do His will! We were seeking to discern who His people are, and I believe we have fairly well resolved this issue. However you seem to need to know who shall die in unbelief, and why, or what they shall do in their lives that they shall never have eternal life in Christ. That life which is conditional in Scripture cannot be eternal life we receive when we are born again of Christ through His Spirit. For Christ promises those who live and believe in Him shall NEVER die! We surely would not want the words of Christ to be found untrue!

The reason we are given all of these warnings throughout Scripture is because it is our physical lives, not our eternal spirits that are destined to die. Because if we die in unbelief there is no more hope for us. So, God, through grace warns us to continue in the faith that we say we possess, or He will bring chastisement to us and perhaps even physical death to those who do not obey Him. This is not a loss of the eternal life He promises all who live and believe in Him. It is a loss of physical life because it it were not the Bible would indeed be a contradictory mess!

One last point is that I don't believe we should be trying to determine who are saved and who will die in unbelief, because only God can judge one's heart, and it with the heart man believes unto righteousness, which God alone knows of all mankind.

Romans 10:6-9 (KJV) But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:10 (KJV) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Psalm 44:21 (KJV) Shall not God search this out? for he knoweth the secrets of the heart.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No it is not. Can you even read who is judged? Only those alive on the earth. And only Israel, because they are the sheep and the goats.

The rest of humanity are the wheat and the tares.

This is NOT a “separate” event from 2 Thess. 4:13-18.
It is the FINAL Judgement where ALL will be judged.

It includes ALL of those who have died – and ALL of those who are alive at Christ’s return.

 

[rwb]

Exactly.

And this makes the Protestant doctrine of “Eternal Security” conditional and NOT absolute.

No it doesn't! You cannot disprove eternal security is indeed eternal by pointing out that even believers while clothed in mortal, corruptible bodies, destined to die, may still choose to sin. Why does Christ say: John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? Christ spoke these words to the sister of Lazarus, who was his faithful saint, and had just died! It was not the eternal spiritual life in Christ that died with Lazarus that day, but his physical body. Because Christ never promises our physical body will never die. That is the reason for all the warnings throughout Scripture. Because God says whom He loves He will rebuke and chasten. Not that this was why Lazarus physically died. Believers are called to repent in this life to avoid chastening in both this life and the one to come.

Revelation 3:19 (KJV) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

[WPM]

TRANSLATION:
“I cannot defend my position . . .”

Yes, I figured that.

... and childishness.

You translate anyone who expose Mystery Babylon as wrong. That goes with the territory. Romanism is corrupt from top to bottom.

 

[WPM]

Heb. 11:35 references TWO DIFFERENT events, Einstein.

Pail is listing events and people from the Old Testament:
Heb. 11:32-35
And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection.

It is the SECOND part of that verse that references Macc. 7.

EPIC FAIL on your part . . .

Who is Pail?

 

[rwb]

Who is Pail?

You really crack me up!

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, yes it is. We disagree.


Who is the "they" Peter is speaking of here, BOL? The "they" refers directly to "false teachers... who... secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who brought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction" and the "many" who "will follow" them. You might read back through that very chapter ~ just the previous paragraph or two should be more than enough. It is quite possible to all about Jesus, but still not know ~ virtually synonymous with love ~ Him, and Him not know that person. Indeed, at the Judgment, to many ~ despite what they had been convinced of ~ He will say to many, "Depart from me, for I never knew you."

This passage clearly uses the word “Epignosis” in reference to who ios it talking about – which is only used about a DOZEN times in the NT.

As I explained before – this word connotes a full, experiential and relational knowledge – not unlike marriage.
ONLY born again believers can have an Epignosis of Christ.

This truth is attested to by Protestant scholars like Richard Chenevix Trench,

J.B. Lightfoot, Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon, and the Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament/

God can use ~ season ~ anyone, even those who hate Him and/or are not called according to His purposes, for a time. And we have to bear in mind Jesus's purpose in His Olivet discourse... His overarching purpose was to proclaim the general call of the Gospel, that everyone is eligible. There is an inward call that is issued only to God's elect, which is what Paul is talking about in Romans 8 (see below), but what Jesus is talking about is the general, outward call to everyone.

Disagree.

Jesus is talking about HIS sheep here, because in the next verse, He tells them:
Matt. 5:14
“You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.

He is telling them that they ARE the salt of the earth and they ARE the light of the world. Those who hate Him cannot be the light of the world.

In John’s Gospel, Jesus describes His very SELF as the Light:
John 8:12
“I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”

Sure he is, I agree... because they, presumably, have received this inward call, issued, as I said, by God via His Spirit. We can stumble/fall from time to time, and inevitably do, sinners that we are, but a good thing to remember here, I think, is what Jude says in his short letter, that God is able to keep us from stumbling:

"...to Him Who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of His glory with great joy, to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen." (Jude 24-25).​

Yes, God is ABLE to jeep us from stumbling – NOT coercive.

He doesn’t MAKE us stop stumbling. He avails the necessary grace and guidance – but the choice is OURS. Without our cooperations, He cannot help us.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "cooperating with His grace." I have an idea, but... :) But Paul speaks directly to this in all his letters/epistles, and maybe most clearly in Philippians 2:12-13, which I cite below. But to use the same language you are using here, God's promise ~ and all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus ~ is that even if, from time to time, we don't "cooperate with His grace," even so, "if (as John says) we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). And Paul also says that God, by the power and working of His Holy Spirit, is the one who sustains us to the end. What Paul writes to the Roman Christians (specifically in Romans 8) is magnificent:

"There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death... those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit... You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you... If the Spirit of Him Who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He Who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit Who dwells in you... For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by Whom we cry, 'Abba! Father!' The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, then heirs ~ heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ... The Spirit helps us in our weakness... And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son... And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified... we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us... neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."​

Since we have been granted these things, as Paul writes to the Philippians, we do most certainly have a great responsibility to live as becomes sons of God and followers of Christ, so we are to "work out (our) own salvation with fear and trembling," but this is because "it is God who works in (us)... to..." ~ so that we will ~ "...will and work for His good pleasure."

And I'm sure you will remember that Jesus Himself says, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."



We worship such a great and awesome God, do we not? All thanks and glory be unto Him!

Grace and peace to you.

Eph. 2:8-9 states:
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

The NEXT verse is where Protestants and Catholics part ways . . .
Eph. 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Protestant think that when Catholics talk about “works” – we violate Eph. 2:8-9 because it says that it is NO of our own doing.

HOWEVER, in verse 10, we read that those works that we consider as an essential element of our faith are NOT our own. They were created by GOD for us to do.
THIS is the cooperation I am talking about. Completing works that HE created.

The Spirit DOES sustain us – IF we let Him.

Remember – the Bible tells us that Jesus could NOT perform miracles in His hometown because of the lack of faith (Mark 6:4-6).

And to Jerusalem, He lamented:
Luke 13:34
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

HUH??

I'm sorry. I had the impression that you had some semblance of intelligence. My bad. I see that I was wrong.

The CONTXT is the same.
The SUBJECT is not.

Wrong, Einstein Junior. One passage is about things people say and the other is about things people do. That is not the same context at all. You must not even know what the word context means.

Learn the difference, Einstein . . .

Honestly, my intelligence level is most likely much closer to Einstein's than yours if the low intelligence level you are displaying in this thread is any indication.

In other words – you’re stumped and can’t argue your way out of the other 2 examples.

Got it.

LOL. Does this mean you are acknowledging that the 2 examples that have been addressed already are invalid? But, you don't want to talk about that. You have a strange impression that since the other 2 examples haven't been specifically addressed yet, that it somehow makes them valid. I would say the fact that 2 of them have already been debunked is strong evidence that the other 2 are most likely invalid as well. I don't need any convincing of that, though, so I'm not going to waste my time looking at them. You've already been thoroughly exposed as a fraud, so what's the point of piling on?

 

[Illuminator]

... and childishness.

You translate anyone who expose Mystery Babylon as wrong. That goes with the territory. Romanism is corrupt from top to bottom.

"Romanism" is a stupid insult used by uneducated bigots. People using "Mystery Babylon" to mean the Catholic Church are hostile, psychotic and cannot be reasoned with.

Hunt-ing the Whore of Babylon: Part I

Anti-Catholic writer Dave Hunt is at it again. Large portions of his previous books have been devoted to attacking the Catholic Church. Now he has written an en...

www.catholic.com

How can the largest charity in the world be "corrupt from top to bottom"? You need professional deprogramming or psychiatric intervention. Back on ignore you go!

You really crack me up!

Scott Hahn will be in Monett Performing Arts Center, on July 22, 2023. details here