22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

This does not make sense.

Sure it does. Just not to you, but many things that are true don't make sense to you.

Who are they ruling over if every one is a ruler?

Define what you mean by ruling over someone. What does that entail exactly in your view? Scripture says we are all priests in Christ's kingdom:

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

Based on the first passage I quoted there, reigning with Christ involves serving Him and the Father. I think your understanding of us ruling and reigning with Christ is flawed.

No one in the future Day of the Lord become rulers after they are born. All the offspring are the ones being ruled. The rulers are the first generation period. Only the first generation rules with Christ.

Where is this taught in scripture? Please stop just saying a bunch of things without backing up what you're saying with scripture. That is pointless and isn't going to make anyone take you seriously or convince anyone of anything.

There is no Scripture stating new young rulers will arise and take over, nor will they even be necessary. That is an assumption placed into the Word of God, and not the Word of God.

There is no scripture which teaches your flawed understanding of what it means to reign with Christ.

Amil have this symbolic time all made up in their heads.

You have MANY things made up in your head which is why no one else agrees with you on many of the things you believe.

If it is the here and now, just look at the last 1993 years, because that is your millennium with Satan out and about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

Premils like to cite 1 Peter 5:8 without even looking at the verse following it.

1 Peter 5:8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. 9 Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that the family of believers throughout the world is undergoing the same kind of sufferings.

You quote 1 Peter 5:8 as if the devil is all powerful and can devour whoever he wants. But, when you read the next verse you can see that he cannot devour anyone who resists him. In James 4:7 it says that if we resist him he must flee from us. That is because we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us during the New Testament time period which was not the case for believers in the Old Testament era. No one could resist the devil in OT times because they didn't have the power of the Holy Spirit at their disposal to force him to go away. This is what his binding is all about. We have authority over the devil in the NT era that people did not have in the OT era. Premils foolishly act as if nothing changed in relation to Satan after Christ's death and resurrection and the preaching of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Timtofly]

Bro! Seriously? That is simply not true, and you know it.

(1) All the detail around the sounding of the 7th trumpet is final and climactic. You must ignore all that.
(2) Check out all the other end-time trumpet passages and the final blast ushers in the sudden and climactic appearing of Christ. None of them usher in Satan's little season. That is nonsensical.
(3) The operation of the 7th angel in the text is not one day, but days preceding the coming of the Lord. This sees the customary preceding natural signs in the sky and upon earth (Revelation 16:18), the judgment and downfall of Babylon (Revelation 16:19) and then the glorious return of Christ (Revelation 16:20).
(4) There is a difference between the voice of the 7th angel (which I believe refers to his time of assignment just before and up to the end) and the trumpet blast (which introduces Christ's appearing).
(5) The 7th angel/trumpet doesn't remotely mention a thousand years. Your linkage is wrong. It does not add up.
(6) Chronos in Scripture does not = 1000 years, it equals the time from the beginning to the end. You much change that.
(7) As Eric so ably outlined, Satan's little season at the end kicks in with the fifth trumpet. That is when the abyss/bottomless pit is opened for the final and widespread deception of man.

You have not addressed/refuted any of this. This is not how you normally function.

So then everyone will be prepared and know exactly when the Second Coming happens, and no thief in the night moment, because all we be ready for time to be up?

Time will be up in the days preceding the 7th Trumpet?

Can you clarify, because the verse says in the days of the 7th Trumpet, not the days prior to the 7th Trumpet, when time is declared over.

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:"

It is a seperate angel who declares time is over, in contrast to the 7th Trumpet.

 

[BreadOfLife]

And you can't even comment one time on the topic of this thread. LOL! Keep the laughs coming. Are you a professional comedian?

That should tell YOU about the anti-Catholic obsession on this forum.

I came to this discussion – NOT to add my 2 cents about Pre-Mil doctrine – but to respond to asinine claims about my Church.

Gee – WHY is it that no matter WHAT you fundies are discussing – it ALWAYS comes back to the Catholic Church - the Original Tree from which you all splintered?

No, we run out of having any desire wasting our time talking to someone who believes so many ridiculous things as you do. What is the point? Go drink some of Jesus's blood, say a Hail Mary or play with some rosarie beads or any other nonsense you can think of and leave us alone, kid.

Not likely.

As long as you “geniuses” keep making these kinds of idiotic claims – I’ll be there to take you out to the Biblical and historical “woodshed” . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, that's the point, BOL. There are folks who think they're Calvinists... but are not, really, or, at least they think along some different lines as John Calvin really did. For example, there are folks out there who are really "hyper-Calvinists," hyper-Calvinism being an unintentional skewing of Calvin's understandings of Scripture and thus very different from true, historical Calvinism.


Sure. We can certainly fall back, or backslide, or stray. And, God can sometimes remove His countenance from us from time to time. But we cannot lose our salvation. God calls us, and He gives us the gift of faith, working it and maintaining it in us by the working and power of His Holy Spirit... this is His grace (Ephesians 2:4-10). And the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Romans 11:29). And finally, if God begins this good work in us, He will ~ will ~ bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).

Grace and peace to you.

Uhhhh, that’s NOT what the Bible says.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory . . .

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

God gives us the TOOLS – but WE must cooperate with His grace.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So then everyone will be prepared and know exactly when the Second Coming happens, and no thief in the night moment, because all we be ready for time to be up?

Time will be up in the days preceding the 7th Trumpet?

That's not what he said at all. Please read what people say more carefully.

Can you clarify, because the verse says in the days of the 7th Trumpet, not the days prior to the 7th Trumpet, when time is declared over.

Hey, you actually asked a question for clarification instead of just making assumptions! Well done! Please do that more often.

Anyway, I know you were asking him, but I have the same understanding of this as he does, so I thought I would answer from my perspective. If you read translations like this:

Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

When you read a translation like this, you can see that it's talking in terms of the days that occur when the seventh angel is ABOUT to sound his trumpet, not when he is actually sounding his trumpet. When something is about to happen, it hasn't actually happened yet, right? So, this is where I get my understanding of the verse from, along with what is taught in other scripture regarding the things that it says will happen at the sounding of the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15-18 and in 1 Cor 15:51-52 (I believe the seventh trumpet and last trumpet are the same).

I know you will still disagree, but I just thought I'd give you an explanation since you actually asked for clarification.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That should tell YOU about the anti-Catholic obsession on this forum.

I came to this discussion – NOT to add my 2 cents about Pre-Mil doctrine – but to respond to asinine claims about my Church.

Gee – WHY is it that no matter WHAT you fundies are discussing – it ALWAYS comes back to the Catholic Church - the Original Tree from which you all splintered?

LOL. Keep the laughs coming. The Catholic church is rarely mentioned on the Eschatology forum, but go ahead and be delusional if you want and think that it's mentioned constantly in every thread. And when you say "you all" it shows you don't even know who you're talking to. I don't associate myself with any denomination. Stop being foolish by thinking that all people are either Catholics or Calvinists. That is ignorant to think that.

Not likely.

As long as you “geniuses” keep making these kinds of idiotic claims – I’ll be there to take you out to the Biblical and historical “woodshed” . .

LOL. Empty words. Your job here is to provide laughs for people like me. You're doing your job well. Keep it up.

 

[rwb]

Uhhhh, that’s NOT what the Bible says.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory . . .

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

God gives us the TOOLS – but WE must cooperate with His grace.

How do you reconcile your understanding of these verses against the verses that also tell us that when we are saved we are eternally secure through Christ? Can biblical doctrine contradict and still be trustworthy?

 

[BreadOfLife]

LOL. Keep the laughs coming. The Catholic church is rarely mentioned on the Eschatology forum, but go ahead and be delusional if you want and think that it's mentioned constantly in every thread. And when you say "you all" it shows you don't even know who you're talking to. I don't associate myself with any denomination. Stop being foolish by thinking that all people are either Catholics or Calvinists. That is ignorant to think that.

Sure I do.
"You all" is ANY ignorant anti-Catholic I come in contact with.
It doesn't pertain to ALL Protestants . . .

LOL. Empty words. Your job here is to provide laughs for people like me. You're doing your job well. Keep it up.

My job is simple - to seek out lies about Catholics and destroy them publicly. Just think of me as the "Ignorance Terminator".

In any case - I've certainly ruffled YOUR feathers . . .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sure I do.
"You all" is ANY ignorant anti-Catholic I come in contact with.
It doesn't pertain to ALL Protestants . . .

My job is simple - to seek out lies about Catholics and destroy them publicly. Just think of me as the "Ignorance Terminator".

In any case - I've certainly ruffled YOUR feathers . . .

LOL. You have given me a lot of laughs, as is your job. Keep it up. You are very good at your job. Anyone with even a tiny bit of discernment can see how ridiculous many Catholic doctrines are, so you have not ruffled any of my feathers. Believe me. You are making me laugh.

 

[BreadOfLife]

How do you reconcile your understanding of these verses against the verses that also tell us that when we are saved we are eternally secure through Christ? Can biblical doctrine contradict and still be trustworthy?

That's just it - there ARE none.
There are no verses that give you license to do whatever you wan and STILL be saved.

In contest - ALL of those verses you're talking about are conditional.
For example -
Rom. 11:22 - “IF you continue in His goodness”

Heb. 10:23 - Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering,

Rev. 2:10 - Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

1 John 2:24-25 - IF what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.

2 Pet. 1:10 - Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for IF you practice these qualities you will never fall.

CONTEXT is key to ubderstanding.

 

[covenantee]

Jesus referenced the Deuterocaonical Books . . .
Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Thanks for the guffaw.

Sirach 27:6 NCB
The fruit of a tree reveals the care with which it was cultivated;
in the same way, a man’s speech reveals his mindset.

The reference to fruit in Sirach 27:6 applies to speech and mindset.

Matthew 7:16,20 KJV
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 7:16 Greek
Matthew 7:20 Greek

2590 [e]
karpōn
καρπῶν
fruits
N-GMP
"used of men's deeds as exponents of their hearts (cf. Winer's Grammar, 372 (348)), Matthew 7:16, 20"

Jesus reference to fruit in Matthew 7:16,20 applies to deeds.

So much for Jesus' reference to the apocrypha.

Your dogma has been debunked, detonated, and demolished.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The judgment in Matthew 25:31 is giving to living humans who have never physically died.

In that case they are appointed once to judgment, and after that physical death.

The sheep are given God's permanent incorruptible physical body. The goats cast into the LOF.

The sheep are not "in Christ" until pronounced sheep and changed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They never were born again until that moment they passed from death into life. But they don't join the church in Paradise. They live and reign with Christ on earth for a thousand years.

What judgment does the soul see when immediately leaving Adam's dead corruptible flesh into God's permanent incorruptible physical body?

Point out the judgment in this verse: 2 Corinthians 5:1.

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

There is no waiting or standing in line. Do you not accept the Cross as the Judgment for sin? 1 Peter 2:24

"Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

Is that not the whole point of Isaiah 53 that Peter was quoting? The judgment of sin was covered by the Messiah, and all in Christ have already been judged in Christ on the Cross?

The Judgement described in Matt. 25 I is for the ENTIRETY of mankind – living and dead.

When He “comes in glory” pertains to the Resurrection of the dead:
2 Thess. 4:13-18
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

EVERYBODY gets judged.

Those in Christ are not condemned. The verses that imply that those in Christ won’t be “judged” use a Greek word that means “condemned”. But we will ALL be judged.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Thanks for the guffaw.

Sirach 27:6 NCB
The fruit of a tree reveals the care with which it was cultivated;
in the same way, a man’s speech reveals his mindset.

The reference to fruit in Sirach 27:6 applies to speech and mindset.

Matthew 7:16,20 KJV
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 7:16 Greek
Matthew 7:20 Greek

2590 [e]
karpōn
καρπῶν
fruits
N-GMP
"used of men's deeds as exponents of their hearts (cf. Winer's Grammar, 372 (348)), Matthew 7:16, 20"

Jesus reference to fruit in Matthew 7:16,20 applies to deeds.

So much for Jesus' reference to the apocrypha.

Your dogma has been debunked, detonated, and demolished.

WHO said that "fruit" has to pertain to the same things in both instances??
It's not a fulfillment of a prophecy - but a mere figure of speech, Einistin.

Ummmm, I believe I gave you THREE other examples . . .

 

[rwb]

That's just it - there ARE none.
There are no verses that give you license to do whatever you wan and STILL be saved.

In contest - ALL of those verses you're talking about are conditional.
For example -
Rom. 11:22 - “IF you continue in His goodness”

Heb. 10:23 - Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering,

Rev. 2:10 - Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.

1 John 2:24-25 - IF what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father.

2 Pet. 1:10 - Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for IF you practice these qualities you will never fall.

CONTEXT is key to ubderstanding.

True, context is the key to understanding. So why do you quote verses out of context? For instance, in Ro 11:22 who is Paul speaking of? I ask because in verses 1 & 2 Paul says that God shall not cast away His people whom He foreknows. Read in context we learn that salvation is according to the election of grace, and if by grace it cannot be of man's works. Whatever any man thinks he may do to be saved are of man's works and are not of grace.

Romans 11:1-6 (KJV) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

WHO said that "fruit" has to pertain to the same things in both instances??
It's not a fulfillment of a prophecy - but a mere figure of speech, Einistin.

LOL. Do you actually expect anyone to buy this lame explanation? Think again. Your example was exposed as not being in the same context as the scripture passage from Matthew 7. Just admit that instead of embarrassing yourself with ridiculous responses like this.

Ummmm, I believe I gave you THREE other examples . . .

So, since you gave 3 other examples, we should just ignore the fact that at least one of the examples you gave was not in the same context as the passage that comes from actual scripture (Matthew 7)? LOL. You are hilarious.

 

[rwb]

That's just it - there ARE none.
There are no verses that give you license to do whatever you wan and STILL be saved.

I don't find this opinion proposed of Christians. I don't know of any brother or sister in Christ who would argue Christians are free to live like the devil and still have eternal life in Christ. The truth is that anyone who claims the name of Christ and believes we can do whatever we want and still be saved, IMO have not been born from above. They are in fact liars and deceivers!

 

[covenantee]

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon, which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

That's found in 1 Kings 10. Nothing whatever to do with your apocryphlub.

Strike 2.

Got any more winners?

Keep those guffaws coming.

 

[covenantee]

Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Maccabees 7:1-42.

Strike 3.

More of that incomparable RC eisegesis.

Hebrews 11:35
Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:

What women received their dead raised to life again in 2 Maccabees 7:1-42?

Give us a verbatim quote, not your imposed opinion.

 

[Timtofly]

No, they do not! How does talking about days when an angel is ABOUT TO SOUND the same as the angel actually sounding the trumpet? Sorry for the all caps there. Just trying to show the phrase that it seems like you're missing. I'm not upset. Just baffled.

Let me put it this way. Let's say I'm currently in the process of doing certain things for my job that I've been doing for days that I need to get done before I go on vacation. So, today is one of the days that I'm getting things done since I am about to go on vacation. So, am I already on vacation when I'm about to go on vacation? No. So, these days that I'm doing things that need to be done before I go on vacation are not actually part of my vacation. They lead up to it. Similarly, the days referenced when the angel is about to sound are days leading up to the angel sounding the trumpet. When something is about to happen it hasn't actually happened yet. Surely, you understand that. Let me know if you're seeing my point now or not. I don't know what else I can do to show you what I mean.

The verse does distinguish between the days before the Trumpet sounds and the days of the sounding. Your accepted translations include both, the rest just assume both.

You cannot have the Trumpet sounding at the same time the Trumpet is about to sound.


The mystery is finished prior to the days of the sound of the 7th Trumpet. That does not negate there will be days of the voice of the 7th Trumpet sounding.

The mystery being completed is your days of planning before you go on your trip. The trip is an event after the mystery has already been accomplished. Your trip is not the mystery, nor are the days of the 7th Trumpet sounding. The 7th Trumpet when it sounds means the mystery has already finished and the task that finished the mystery had already happened way before the 7th Trumpet sounded.

The reason being that after the 6th Trumpet the mystery was already in the stages of being finished. During the 7 Thunders the mystery is being completed. It is after the 7 Thunders that the angel declares time is over even before the 7th Trumpet sounds.


The 7th Trumpet does not signal time is over. The 7th Trumpet is not the sound that completes the mystery. The 7th Trumpet is the week long celebration that all has been accomplished.

All was accomplished in the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders. That is why time is over and the mystery finished. The 7th Trumpet is not a single blast on a single day.

The verse contrasts time over with the days of the voice of the angel (the days of sounding) and then again contrast the sounding with the mystery that was finished in the days leading up to the sounding.


It does not read that time is over and the mystery completed at the instant the 7th Trumpet sounds. Neither should it be interpreted that way.

Yet all 3 thoughts go hand in hand.

No, the mystery is not Satan being bound, and only Amil have solved that mystery. The mystery was the gospel that was wrapped up in Adam's disobedience. 1 Corinthians 15. Why would God plant a tree that eating from would allow sin and Satan to be numeral uno throughout the last 6,000 years. The gospel in the Garden. The Gospel in the life of Abraham. The Gospel of the tabernacle. The Gospel of the Cross. The Gospel of the fulness of the Gentiles, and even the Gospel of a restored Israel at the Second Coming. All that was completed in the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders leading up to the point where the 7th Trumpet is about to sound. Time is over before the 7th Trumpet sounds. The mystery was completed before the 7th Trumpet sounds. We see Satan and his angels working on earth and approaching heaven before the 7th Trumpet sounds.

The days of the 7th Trumpet is the celebration event that all the work has been successfully fulfilled. Like the week of Palm Sunday, the week very well could hit a snag by Wednesday. That is why we have Daniel 9:27. During the week of the sound of the 7th Trumpet the Atonement Covenant is confirmed with the many. If that confirmation means 1 person will needs be beheaded, then the week is split in half, the remainder of the week is the 3.5 days the 2 witnesses lay dead in the street of Jerusalem. Otherwise the only time Satan has left is the 8 days of the voice of the 7th Trumpet. When the 7th Trumpet stops, Satan is bound in the pit, either way.

 

[rwb]

The OT Prophesies that tell of the Lord, [Jesus] ruling the world as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, must be fulfilled.

What about what the Lord Jesus tells the prophets? He says this time is given so the Gospel of the Kingdom would be preached unto all the earth, then comes the end, not ONE thousand more years of time.

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.