22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

You could very well be correct. However, I believe since Satan was bound so the Kingdom of God could be built as Gentiles come in through the Gospel, I don't believe he will be set free until the Kingdom of God is complete. Why would God set him free to deceive as he had before his binding if he is set free before the Kingdom of God is complete?

You keep making these statements (personal opinion) that are the foundation of your argument without providing biblical quotes to support them. Why would any of us accept these then? We need hard explicit Scripture, and it is simply not there.

What is more, where does it say Satan will not "be set free until the Kingdom of God is complete"?

God will set Satan free because He said so and the day of salvation continues until He comes and closes the door of opportunity. Persecution accompanies end-time evangelism. There is a cost. But the day of salvation continues.

Jesus said in Luke 13:24-25, “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are.”

This is when the opportunity of salvation finishes!

The seeming delay in Christ's return is addressed by Peter responding to the last days mockers scoffing. The reason is: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15).

That applies right up until His return. Salvation relates the the last days. The last days finish at the second coming, not the end of the thousand years. The day of salvation has been ongoing since the Fall (Isaiah 49:8 and 2 Corinthians 6:2). It is the “acceptable time” or “acceptable year” (Isaiah 49:8, 61:2, Luke 4:19) to be saved. “Today” is an age of grace the only day to respond to His voice (Hebrews 3:7-8, 4:7). There is no other day of hope after this day for salvation.

 

[WPM]

I see mostly truth being told about your false Church here. Many of its doctrines are a complete joke and I've listed some of them. But, you go ahead and bow down to the pope and think that Mary is sinless and you go ahead and eat Jesus's body and drink His blood if you insist on believing in complete unbiblical nonsense. Okay, pal? I know you are stubborn and don't listen to anything, so I'm not going to waste any time trying to convince you of anything.

There is no one as blind as one who cannot see. Try describing color to a blind man from birth. He has no concept of it.

 

[PinSeeker]

And yet, where I live – the Catholic churches are THRIVING and I’ve seen Protestant churches closing all over town.
It depends on where you LIVE, Einstein.

Bo – the sad fact is that attendance is down - ALL over the country, in general.
What color is the sky in YOUR world??

Do your HOMEWORK . . .
In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace | Pew Research Center

Well, Christianity itself is not declining; God is building His Israel, and it will be completed. As Paul says in Ephesians 2, "(we) are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord... (i)n Him (we) also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." And again, as I cited Paul in Romans 11 previously, "all Israel will be saved."

There is, though, I believe, a shakedown taking place all over the world... and maybe especially in the West. But I would submit that those leaving churches and/or renouncing their Christianity were never regenerate Christians in the first place ~ they were never born again of the Spirit ~ but rather, as John put it two millennia ago, "they went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us... (b)ut they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

Grace and peace to you, BOL.

 

[Timtofly]

Yes. He's not just talking about people who reign with Him during the entire thousand years as Premils believe. During the thousand years more and more people are added who reign with Him.

This does not make sense. Who are they ruling over if every one is a ruler?

No one in the future Day of the Lord become rulers after they are born. All the offspring are the ones being ruled. The rulers are the first generation period. Only the first generation rules with Christ.

There is no Scripture stating new young rulers will arise and take over, nor will they even be necessary. That is an assumption placed into the Word of God, and not the Word of God.

Amil have this symbolic time all made up in their heads. If it is the here and now, just look at the last 1993 years, because that is your millennium with Satan out and about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. You all even have the antichrist already on the earth for hundreds of years. There has been non stop tribulation for 1990+ years. Even the church has apostacized and killed the faithful redeemed. It has happened over and over again in your "millennium".

 

[PinSeeker]

...I know you are stubborn...

I think we're all at least kind of stubborn, don't you, SI? :) But, thanks be to God, one day we, like Paul and all those who have gone on before, will be delivered from this body of sin and death... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[covenantee]

Why do you guys keep dodging the issue?

Why can’t you simply address why you accept the EDITED OT Canon proclaimed by a FALSE prophet who proclaimed a FALSE Christ in the 2nd century - instead of the FULL Canon that Jesus and the NT writers studied from and referenced almost 200 times in the New Testament?

The onus is on YOU to explain why . . .

Let me re-phrase:

There is nothing in the Protestant canon which precludes or prevents any individual from receiving the Gospel message, and coming to salvation in Christ by grace through faith.

There is a numberless multitude of the saints of God who confirm that reality.

 

[covenantee]

Why do you guys keep dodging the issue?

Why can’t you simply address why you accept the EDITED OT Canon proclaimed by a FALSE prophet who proclaimed a FALSE Christ in the 2nd century - instead of the FULL Canon that Jesus and the NT writers studied from and referenced almost 200 times in the New Testament?

The onus is on YOU to explain why . . .

Provide one example of Jesus quoting from the apocrypha.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Who is left and desires to repent who is not already saved when Satan has been loosed before Christ comes again? There are none in between, there are nations in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, then there is the camp of the saints and the beloved city. The lines are already drawn when Satan is loosed, one is either of Gog and Magog or the camp of the saints.

Revelation 20:8-9 (KJV) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Not sure why you responded twice to the same post (#8120). In another reply to that same post you said "You could very well be correct.", but the other things you've said don't seem to indicate that you think I could very well be correct.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I believe John writes the souls alive in heaven are there because while still alive they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

But, do you believe they continue to live and reign with Christ in heaven? If not, then your view is unique to yourself and not shared by other Amils.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I see mostly truth being told about your false Church here. Many of its doctrines are a complete joke and I've listed some of them. But, you go ahead and bow down to the pope and think that Mary is sinless and you go ahead and eat Jesus's body and drink His blood if you insist on believing in complete unbiblical nonsense. Okay, pal? I know you are stubborn and don't listen to anything, so I'm not going to waste any time trying to convince you of anything.

Yes – I heard you the FIRST time you made this promise – yet here you are again regurgitatinig the same vomit . . .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes – I heard you the FIRST time you made this promise – yet here you are again regurgitatinig the same vomit . . .

I didn't break my promise. Do you see me trying to convince you of anything? I know that can't be done. I know your mind is closed to the truth right now. All I did was inform you once more that some of your beliefs are a joke. And now it looks like I did that again. I'll try to make this the last time.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Well, Christianity itself is not declining; God is building His Israel, and it will be completed. As Paul says in Ephesians 2, "(we) are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord... (i)n Him (we) also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." And again, as I cited Paul in Romans 11 previously, "all Israel will be saved."

There is, though, I believe, a shakedown taking place all over the world... and maybe especially in the West. But I would submit that those leaving churches and/or renouncing their Christianity were never regenerate Christians in the first place ~ they were never born again of the Spirit ~ but rather, as John put it two millennia ago, "they went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us... (b)ut they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

Grace and peace to you, BOL.

I would agree that this is the case for SOME of them.

However – the Scripture are replete with warnings for born-again believers to remain faithful and to NOT fall back into darkness – lest they LOSE they’re secure position . . .
Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb. 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)\

 

[BreadOfLife]

Let me re-phrase:

There is nothing in the Protestant canon which precludes or prevents any individual from receiving the Gospel message, and coming to salvation in Christ by grace through faith.

There is a numberless multitude of the saints of God who confirm that reality.

By rejecting God’s Word – ANY PART of it – you are rejecting GOD because ALL Scripture is God-breathed (2 Tim. 3:16).

YOU don’t get to pick and choose which Scriptures are God-breathed and which are NOT.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Provide one example of Jesus quoting from the apocrypha.

I ALREAD have - and they aren't "Apocrypha".
They're Deuterocaonicals.

Jesus referenced the Deuterocaonical Books . . .
Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon, which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

So did Paul . . .
Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Maccabees 7:1-42.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wisfom 5:17-20.

 

[rwb]

Where else in Scripture does it teach that "the Kingdom of God is complete" or "the fullness of the kingdom of God" occurs "after the thousand years expires" and before Satan's little season? Revelation 20 doesn't even say that. That is something you force upon Revelation 20 to justify your own opinion. You have no text that states that, never mind a supporting text. Think about that! That is terrible hermeneutics. This is what Premils do. What is more, this season is probably years. The contrast here is between a large period of time in between the 2 Advents (2000 years+) and a short period of global uprising at the end (probably similar to the 3 1/2 years throughout Revelation).

The tormenting of the minds of the wicked at the 5th trumpet can be equated to the deceiving of the wicked to surround the saints and the beloved city during Satan's little season. These parallel each other. The reality is: the abyss is finally opened and the demonic realm released after being retrained since the earthly ministry of Christ.

What's the purpose for a thousand years? Does not John say it was to prevent Satan from deceiving the nations no more until the thousand years should be fulfilled? We know how the nations were being deceived before Satan was bound, by his ability to hold people in bondage to fear of death, and that prevents them from believing Christ eternally saves whosoever believes Him. Only by binding Satan is the Gospel able to penetrate the hearts of all (Gentiles & Jews) who believe.

Does this not prove that Satan was bound for a thousand years so the Gospel could be sent unto Gentiles so that the Kingdom of God could be built. It makes no sense to argue that Satan will be released before the Kingdom of God is complete and the thousand years expired.

The time allotted Satan to be bound is the same amount of time given saints to live and reign with Christ. This is why I believe the time that should be no longer corresponds with the mystery of God that should be fulfilled. The time for Satan to be bound has expired, and during this same time the Kingdom of God is the mystery of God that should be fulfilled in the days the seventh angel begins to sound.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

First of all - I was referring to the fact that the anti-Catholic I was responding to couldn’t stick to the conversation at hand.

And you can't even comment one time on the topic of this thread. LOL! Keep the laughs coming. Are you a professional comedian?

Probably because he ran OUT of ammunition like YOU did in our last discussion . . .

No, we run out of having any desire wasting our time talking to someone who believes so many ridiculous things as you do. What is the point? Go drink some of Jesus's blood, say a Hail Mary or play with some rosarie beads or any other nonsense you can think of and leave us alone, kid.

 

[Keraz]

What's the purpose for a thousand years?

The OT Prophesies that tell of the Lord, [Jesus] ruling the world as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, must be fulfilled. By Revelation 19:11-16
Jesus came first as a suffering servant, at His glorious Return; He will destroy all of His enemies and rule the world from Jerusalem.
People will come annually, to worship Him there. Zechariah 14:16-21

As mankind has now had nearly 6000 years to rule themselves, the final 1000 years will be the worlds Sabbath rest.
Any other scenario denies Jesus His reward. Psalms 2:7-10

 

[PinSeeker]

I would agree that this is the case for SOME of them.

Well, that's the point, BOL. There are folks who think they're Calvinists... but are not, really, or, at least they think along some different lines as John Calvin really did. For example, there are folks out there who are really "hyper-Calvinists," hyper-Calvinism being an unintentional skewing of Calvin's understandings of Scripture and thus very different from true, historical Calvinism.

However – the Scripture are replete with warnings for born-again believers to remain faithful and to NOT fall back into darkness.

Sure. We can certainly fall back, or backslide, or stray. And, God can sometimes remove His countenance from us from time to time. But we cannot lose our salvation. God calls us, and He gives us the gift of faith, working it and maintaining it in us by the working and power of His Holy Spirit... this is His grace (Ephesians 2:4-10). And the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Romans 11:29). And finally, if God begins this good work in us, He will ~ will ~ bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It does not "fit in" at the Second Coming at all. Satan's little season is a thousand years after the Second Coming.

Your useless comments add nothing to the discussion.

The little season mentioned in the 5th Seal is not Satan's little season. Why are you giving Satan's time to those being redeemed from the earth, especially in light of the point Satan is bound from doing such, according to your own teachings?

Satan is not bound now, and the Gospel still goes out. Satan's time is short because when the 7th Trumpet sounds, that is the end of Satan's 6,000 years of terror against God, and his corruption against the redeemed. If Satan gets his 42 month extension, his time is not short, but extended for another 3.5 years. Satan gets 100% control of earth after the 7th Trumpet sounds. That is the 3rd woe.

Total nonsense. Nothing more needs to be said in response to this gibberish.

If the 3rd woe does not happen, then the millennium starts at the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet sounds, regardless of the 3rd woe. The third woe is allowed so that the rest of redeemed humanity remain in the Lamb's book of life. This is when the mark appears, because those with the mark are removed from the Lamb's book of life. The mark is an expiration date extended past the 7th Trumpet sounding, declaring that time has expired.

The point about Satan being bound is because his time is up. Revelation 12 points out he has had 6,000 years, because his rebel angels have been bound for 6,000 years. They are only loosed upon the earth for a few months at the 5th Trumpet. That would be their little season of terror, after being bound for 6,000 years. That is the first woe. Don't call it a little season of terror, just call it the 1st woe, but they are the same thing. Is a little season 5 months? If there are 3 seasons in a year for 3 different harvests, that would be about 4 months, no? If only 2 seasons per year, still not 6 months for a season, as part of the time is waiting for good weather.

Can you please re-read what you said here and tell me if even you can understand anything you're saying here? I would be surprised if you could. I could just type random letters and make just as much sense as you're making here.

Funny, you claim you hit me hard because you think I have "special revelation", whatever that means.

When did I claim I hit you hard? Never. You made something up yet again. How can you not know what I meant? You believe things that no one else does. If what you believed was actually true what else could explain it except that you've had special revelation of these things only to you (since no one else believes these things)?

When all I am doing is making you think outside of your comfort zone.

LOL. No, thanks. My comfort zone is the truth. I'm going to go outside of that.

You think your comfort zone is special revelation from the Holy Spirit, no?

No. Special revelation would mean the Holy Spirit revealed something only to me. I don't have any beliefs that no one else has like you do.

Perhaps not special, but just human theology and human understanding parading around as Spirit led. But I don't claim that you are not led by the Spirit.

You just did claim that implicitly. It's a good thing I don't care what you think.

You seem to just make fun of those who think outside of the Orthodox Box. If making fun of people is hitting them hard, should I say ouch?

I will continue to do that because when you believe something that no one else does and you say a bunch of nonsense that can't remotely be supported by scripture, then, yes, I will make fun of that. If you say something that has at least a small chance of being true, I won't make fun of that.

Claiming someone has "special revelation" and the constant point "They are the only one who thinks that way", is making fun of and mocking a person.

That's right and I have no problem with that. God does not reveal things to only one person, so anybody who claims that something is true that no one else believes deserves to be mocked.

No one agrees with each other on every single jot.

Who said that they do? Not me. But, the problem is that NO ONE agrees with you on several of the things that you believe.

We are unique individuals who seek out like minded people, not exact duplicates of one's self, unless you are narcissistic.

I agree. And there are people here who agree with me on things that I believe. Who here is like minded as you? No one that I've seen.

Then you probably could not even stand to be around that other person. You all can dish out dishonest mocking of other posters, and even get away with it, but start to holler and complain when the truth hits home.

I would never complain about that. If you ever start telling the truth, I will gladly embrace it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, that's the point, BOL. There are folks who think they're Calvinists... but are not, really, or think along some different lines as John Calvin really did. For example, there are folks out there who are really hyper-Calvinists, which is an unintentional skewing of Calvin's understandings of Scripture and thus very different from true, historical Calvinism.


Sure. We can certainly fall back, or backslide, or stray. And, God can sometimes remove His countenance from us from time to time. But we cannot lose our salvation. God calls us, and He gives us the gift of faith, working it and maintaining it in us by the working and power of His Holy Spirit... this is His grace (Ephesians 2:4-10). And the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable (Romans 11:29). And finally, if God begins this good work in us, He will ~ will ~ bring it to completion at the day of Christ (Philippians 1:6).

Grace and peace to you.

This thread is all over the place with different topics. It seems to have become the thread to discuss every topic people can think of except for the original topic of the thread. ;)