22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[rwb]

This is simply not true. Amils typically build their beliefs on explicit statements and support it with other Scripture. You do neither here. You come up with an opinion and then force it upon the text. This is not how it works.

Well Paul, I partly agree because Amils do typically build their beliefs using ALL of Scripture. I cannot agree that I have not done this when seeking to fully understand the sounding of the seventh trumpet associated with Rev 10. I haven't forced my opinion upon the text, but rather I have used other passages from the holy text to conclude we cannot understand John's words without considering both a thousand years, and Satan's little season. What is the mystery of God that should be fulfilled in the days the seventh angel begins to sound? If you don't agree with my conclusion that the mystery is that the Kingdom of God is complete, therefore the specific time John is referencing is a thousand years, could you explain from Scripture what is the mystery that John writes should be finished in the days the seventh trumpet sounds???

 

[WPM]

No Paul, I don't believe I am. What I am doing is using verses found in other passages of Scripture to understand what John means when he writes the mystery of God should be finished in the days when the seventh angel begins to sound. IOW using Scripture to be its own interpreter.

I am going to repost this.

But where is Satan's little season in the picture with any of these other texts? Nowhere! You force that into the equation where it is not mentioned. It is not in Revelation 10 or 11. You place it there where it does not belong. Read these other passages and let them interpret the 7th trumpet for you. Then look at the climactic detail in Revelation 10 and 11 and you will see that they all beautifully correlate to give us a picture of the end of the world, the end of time and the end of the mystery of God.

We should recognize: the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation 10 and 11 are the only set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture. Scripture carefully knits together to show a climactic coming of Christ at the end. Interesting all these references show us that His return is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet.

Christ said Himself, in Matthew 24:29-31, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 confirms this saying: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the Coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” His appearing sees “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.”

1 Corinthians 15:22-24, 51-53 describes a ‘last trump’ saying, “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his Coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power ... Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.”

There is only one last trumpet, it means final trumpet - it sounds at Christ's climactic return. The word eschatos, from where we get our word English eschatology, and simply means end, last, farthest or final.

The Coming of the Lord, described in this reading, is here carefully located at “the end.” In fact, the whole tenure of the passage is distinctly pointing to a climactic time in history when God separates righteousness and wickedness forever. It is the occasion approaching when Christ finally presents “up the kingdom to God” and will have, as He promised, “put down all rule and all authority and power.” Simultaneously, the glorification of the kingdom of God sees the destruction of the kingdom of darkness. It is the end-game for Satan and the conclusion of his evil efforts to obstruct the plan of God for mankind. Wickedness has finally and eternally been abolished.

 

[WPM]

Why do you argue I'm ignoring that?



Yes the seventh trumpet does usher in Satan's "little season", as well as Christ's climatic appearing. Again, what is the mystery of God that is finished when this time shall be no longer?



Your first sentence is what I've consistently stated. The climax of the days when the seventh angel begins to sound will without doubt be the climatic return of Christ on the very last day of these days, BUT that shall come AFTER God's wrath is poured upon the ungodly, precisely the moment in time when the saints are caught up immortal at His coming again.



Okay. But you do believe that before the appearing of Christ Satan will be given his little season?



No it doesn't! But again, John does mention the mystery that shall be finished, and that my friend does indeed link to time that shall be no longer, and a thousand years. We don't read the Bible verses in isolation if we want to get the full understanding. I know you already know this so forgive me if I have offended you.



Yes, a thousand years does indeed equal time! Not all time, but time when saints live and reign with Christ during their lifetimes, and time symbolized a thousand years God has given the Church to build the Kingdom through the proclamation of the Gospel under the power of the Holy Spirit.



The abyss might indeed be opened in time, but Satan shall not be loosed until time, symbolized a thousand years expires. That shall not happen until the days when the seventh angel begins to sound.



It is you who has refused to answer questions I've asked. I've ducked around nothing and am offended that you would say I have. I especially do not appreciate being compared to others. It seems your opinion of other Amils is congenial only as long as they agree verbatim with you. I think its time to end this particular discussion with you, because I don't like the thought of offending you any more than I obviously already have.

The points I made stand because your response does not even come close to addressing the many contradictions in your position. You have to reject the all-consummating nature of the 7th trumpet detail. It is clearly the end of time, the mystery of God and this imperfect state. It is the time of the general judgment. We are now into eternity. You make time what you want it to be. You unilaterally decide that there is no salvation during Satan's little season without any support in Rev 20 or anywhere else. You are foisting your own opinions upon the sacred text. That is not wise!

You have to reject the all-consummating nature of all the last trumpet passages elsewhere in Scripture. You ignore/reject this corroborative proof that Amil enjoys in God's Book.

As for your refusal to accept the opening of the abyss and release of the demonic host in the 5th trumpet as Satan's little season, that exposes your attachment to your opinion rather than the detail of Scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I would say the person living 70 years if he died belonging to Christ, has lived and reigned with Christ during this time likened a thousand years. It really doesn't matter if one has lived and reigned with Christ for only one day during their life, then died, they too have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I'm sorry, but saying that a thousand years can figuratively represent 70 years makes no sense to me. As I said before, in other cases where the word "thousand" is used figuratively in scripture it represents a number large than one thousand. It's one thing to say that someone who lived 70 years and died has lived and reigned with Christ during the figurative thousand years, but to try to say that someone who lived for 70 years and then died has reigned with Him for a thousand years does not make any sense to me at all.

Sorry to be confusing. So many thoughts to be thoroughly understood practically require a book to adequately explain.

It shouldn't be that hard to explain. The truth should not be so convoluted. This is what I say to Premils often. If you can't explain what you believe in a succinct way then it's probably not the truth. That's how I look at it.

Yes, the thousand years began with Christ coming to earth a man. Old Covenant saints are included according to Covenant promise. The thousand years equates to the lifetimes of ALL (both Old & New) the saints.

If it began with Christ's first coming, then how can it include the lifetimes of old covenant saints? I'm just confused by the way you look at this. Yes, old covenant saints live and reign with Christ as well, but it's their souls that have lived and reigned with Him in heaven since the thousand years began. What you're saying would imply that the thousand years began even before Christ came. Yet, you're saying it began when Christ came. I'm just confused by how you look at some of this.

The Old Covenant faithful looking forward to the Messiah to come to redeem them and the New Covenant faithful looking back to Christ after fulfilling that which was promised. The Old Covenant faithful having lived and died believing in Messiah to come lived and reigned with Him through/by His Covenant promise. Saints live and reign with Christ a thousand years regardless how long or short their lives may be or have been.

I think it's better to say that they live and reign with Christ during the thousand years rather than saying they each live and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Tell you what - I'll respond to this irrelevant topic when YOU addess how the Protestant OT Canon came about - which is what we were talking about.

This is hilarious for you to tell someone else that their topic is irrelevant when every post you've made in this thread is irrelevant to the topic of this thread. LOL! Thanks for the laughs, buddy.

 

[rwb]

The points I made stand because your response does not even come close to addressing the many contradictions in your position. You have to reject the all-consummating nature of the 7th trumpet detail. It is clearly the end of time, the mystery of God and this imperfect state. It is the time of the general judgment. We are now into eternity. You make time what you want it to be. You unilaterally decide that there is no salvation during Satan's little season without any support in Rev 20 or anywhere else. You are foisting your own opinions upon the sacred text. That is not wise!

You have to reject the all-consummating nature of all the last trumpet passages elsewhere in Scripture. You ignore/reject this corroborative proof that Amil enjoys in God's Book.

As for your refusal to accept the opening of the abyss and release of the demonic host in the 5th trumpet as Satan's little season, that exposes your attachment to your opinion rather than the detail of Scripture.

I'm not causing contradiction, nor rejecting what shall be all consummating nature of the return of Christ in the day, which is the final day of the days when the trumpet shall sound. Yes, I agree the seventh trumpet indeed ushers in the time of general judgment coming upon the earth. This time of judgment coming, comes only after the fullness of the Kingdom of God (a thousand years expires). It comes with the days of Satan's little season after the time for building the Kingdom of God through His Gospel sent in the power of Christ's Spirit shall be no longer.

In the same way we don't limit living in these last days to only the last day of these days, neither should we limit the days the seventh trumpet sounds to only the last day of these days when Christ comes again. Yes, all the Scripture pertaining to the last and final day of the days the seventh trumpet sounds are all consummating and climatic like none other. And then the kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of Christ. All is fulfilled in that DAY and the eternal age shall begin. Your focus is only on the final day of the days the seventh trumpet sounds, where I believe the seventh trumpet ushers in time given Satan for a little season because the mystery hidden, that is the Kingdom of God is complete, and time of God's wrath and judgment has come, and time the saints shall receive their eternal reward.

Explain how the opening of the abyss when the 5th trumpet sounds Satan is released before the thousand years expire? Please also explain why, if Satan is released when the 5th trumpet sounds only those who have not the seal of God in their foreheads are tormented for a short period of time then? Wouldn't that contradict Rev 20 which tells us Satan's purpose for being released is to gather Gog & Magog to surround the saints and the beloved city?

The sounding of each of the six trumpets signals some amount of time when whatever is written to happen comes to pass upon the earth. I understand the sounding of the seventh trumpet shall be the last and the full consummation of all that is written which includes the last day in these days the last trumpet sounds. Just as with the other six, the seventh and final trumpet I believe John shows shall also involve some, though small, amount of time or a little season.

 

[rwb]

If it began with Christ's first coming, then how can it include the lifetimes of old covenant saints? I'm just confused by the way you look at this. Yes, old covenant saints live and reign with Christ as well, but it's their souls that have lived and reigned with Him in heaven since the thousand years began. What you're saying would imply that the thousand years began even before Christ came. Yet, you're saying it began when Christ came. I'm just confused by how you look at some of this.

Because according to the Covenant ordained in heaven from before the foundation of the world, Christ is the Lamb slain for His people. Faith in His blood covers whosoever believes in Him no matter when they lived and died. How can saints as living souls after death live and reign with Christ in time since heaven is eternal and does not exist in time? If we have not lived and reigned with Christ in time (a thousand years), then after death we shall not ascend to heaven a living soul. The Covenant of redemption ordained in heaven before creation is the promise through God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit. The promise ordained by God is as though fulfilled already before creation because every promise of God shall not fail. There was never a question in the mind of God that which was promised before creation would be fulfilled in time. According to promise time had already transpired according to Covenant promise ordained in heaven before creation. By grace through faith even the Old Covenant saints who lived and died before the first advent of Christ have part in the promise.

I think it's better to say that they live and reign with Christ during the thousand years rather than saying they each live and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

It doesn't matter how long our lives might be after we have part in the resurrection life through Christ. We are at the moment we believe spiritually living and reigning with Christ a thousand years. Not that we live and reign with Him for the complete thousand years, but that the thousand years symbolize time given this earth when in life we do live and reign with Him. Again, whether we live and reign with Christ for only one day or one hundred years after we believe, we have lived with Him a thousand years. It might be better understood, (even though Scripture does not say this) to say after we believe we live and reign with Christ during or within this time likened to a thousand years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm glad to hear you aren't upset, neither am I.

Not at all. Just very confused. I'm trying to understand your position on this, but I just don't.

I'm not promoting unbiblical doctrine.

Well, I have to disagree to some extent. Your overall Amil view is biblical, but I do not believe your interpretation of the timing of the thousand years in relation to the timing of Satan's little season is biblical. And, you think that my view on that is not biblical as well. Is this a major point of contention? No. But, is it interesting to talk about? Apparently, since we keep talking about it.

I'm not arguing anything that Amil Christians have not agreed is truth since the advent of Christ.

In terms of your understanding of the timing of the thousand years in relation to the timing of Satan's little season, I believe your view is unlike any other Amil. At least any others that I've seen.

The only real disagreement in this discussion that I can tell, is saying the Kingdom of God is complete in the days of the seventh angel sounding, and that since the Kingdom is complete there are no more saints to be saved during Satan's little season.

I guess that's basically true, yes.

I've shown using Scripture why I believe this to be truth. I am open to being taught by those holding to Amil doctrine, but so far I've not heard biblical refutation of the conclusions I've drawn.

I did show how I see it using 2 Peter 3:9, but I don't know yet if you saw that or replied to that.

All that you've written falls within the sounding of the seventh trumpet. You are focused only on the last day of the days the last trumpet sounds. Which is fine, but you cannot claim that prior to the very last day, there shall be given to Satan a little season.

Of course Satan's little season occurs prior to the very last day, but what you're not getting is that the last trumpet doesn't sound until the last day. The last trumpet will signal the end of Satan's little season and signal the return of Christ and everything that will happen on the day He returns, as described in 1 Cor 15:51-52 and Revelation 11:15-18.

 

[rwb]

Well, I have to disagree to some extent. Your overall Amil view is biblical, but I do not believe your interpretation of the timing of the thousand years in relation to the timing of Satan's little season is biblical. And, you think that my view on that is not biblical as well. Is this a major point of contention? No. But, is it interesting to talk about? Apparently, since we keep talking about it.

Rev 10 is the only passage connecting the seventh trumpet with the mystery of God that should be fulfilled, when there should be time no longer. Can you prove the mystery fulfilled when time is no longer is not the fullness of the Kingdom of God? And what is the time given where the saints enter the Kingdom of God to live and reign with Christ?

Of course Satan's little season occurs prior to the very last day, but what you're not getting is that the last trumpet doesn't sound until the last day. The last trumpet will signal the end of Satan's little season and signal the return of Christ and everything that will happen on the day He returns, as described in 1 Cor 15:51-52 and Revelation 11:15-18.

I've never denied the seventh trumpet sounds the last day when Christ comes again. I don't understand how the days the seventh trumpet sounds signal the end of Satan's little season, rather than the beginning of his little season, to be concluded on the last day when Christ appears in the clouds.

The passage from 1Cor 15:51-52 only mentions the last day of the days when the final trumpet sounds. The same is true for Rev 11:15-18.

I know you won't accept this, and show using other translations to prove the seventh trumpet sounds only on the last day. But regardless of the translation used, they all write the angel sounds for "days" and not just one, the last day. I realize you believe these days are those that lead up to the last day, but I've looked at several translations, and though a few could support this opinion, the majority I've searched do not.

The last/seventh trumpet ushers in a new time, Satan's little season, which comes because the Kingdom of God (mystery) is complete, and the time of God's judgment to be poured upon the earth, which culminates with His wrath when Christ is seen coming in the clouds and the saints are resurrected/raised and changed.

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm late this party, obviously... :) ...but I'm going to respond to this, at least:

ONE LONE CHAPTER: Genesis 1 is also one lone chapter, and the whole Bible stands or falls on that one lone chapter.

Eh... I would disagree with this, but that's neither here nor there, it seems.

HIGHLY DEBATED: Only by Amillennialists because they are opposing plain Scripture. They hate the idea of a literal Millennial reign of Christ (which Satan also hates).

This is not true at all (other than Satan hating it, of course). Christ is literally reigning ~ from heaven, seated at the right hand of the Father, as it were ~ right now. Christ Jesus Himself said it in His day (2000+ years ago), that the kingdom was here then and is thus here now, and that He is King of a kingdom not of this world.

MOST FIGURATIVE: How in the world can "one thousand years" (Gk chilia ete) be seen as anything other than 1,000 years (which is called a "Millennium" from the Latin "milli" for 1,000).

In the same way as the cattle on a thousand hills are the Lord's (Psalm 50) and a thousand years is as a day and vice-versa (Psalm 90, 2 Peter 3). Specifically, the millennium of Revelation 20 is intimately related to what Paul says in Romans 11:25-26, namely, that "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in... (a)nd in this way all Israel will be saved..."

OBSCURE BOOK: If indeed it was an obscure book it could not possibly have this blessing: Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. (Rev 1:3)

Now this I wholeheartedly agree with, as any amillennialist (I like the term nunc-millennialist better; the idea of a millennium is not rejected in any way as the 'a' prefix would suggest... rather, we are in the midst of the millennium now, which is the reason for the 'nunc' prefix) worth his/her salt would. But we should not make it out to be obscure, like a puzzle book, trying to make one-to-one correlations with every little thing mentioned in John's Revelation. Rather we should read it like a picture book, repeating itself seven (a very meaningful number in Scripture) times, basically ~ Revelation 20 itself is the final repetition, with the same outcome as the previous six, Christ's triumphant return ~ and containing one-to-many correlations through the course of the millennium, all the while holding on to the overarching theme and outcome, that Jesus wins. :)

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You could very well be correct. However, I believe since Satan was bound so the Kingdom of God could be built as Gentiles come in through the Gospel, I don't believe he will be set free until the Kingdom of God is complete. Why would God set him free to deceive as he had before his binding if he is set free before the Kingdom of God is complete?

All I can say is that even before he was loose/free (not bound) in Old Testament times, some people were saved. So, that tells me that it's possible for people to become saved even when he is loosed. But, it's more difficult because deception is at a much higher level when he is loosed.

 

[BreadOfLife]

This is hilarious for you to tell someone else that their topic is irrelevant when every post you've made in this thread is irrelevant to the topic of this thread. LOL! Thanks for the laughs, buddy.

First of all - I was referring to the fact that the anti-Catholic I was responding to couldn’t stick to the conversation at hand. Probably because he ran OUT of ammunition like YOU did in our last discussion . . .

Gee - didn't you say you were done with this “boring discussion” in your last post??:

 

[Timtofly]

That's it. Where does Satan's little season fit in here? Nowhere that I can see. How long will each of these things take? If the amount of time it will take for our bodies to be changed (a moment in time) is any indication, then these things will all happen quickly. So, again, where does Satan's little season fit in here?

It does not "fit in" at the Second Coming at all. Satan's little season is a thousand years after the Second Coming.

The little season mentioned in the 5th Seal is not Satan's little season. Why are you giving Satan's time to those being redeemed from the earth, especially in light of the point Satan is bound from doing such, according to your own teachings?

Satan is not bound now, and the Gospel still goes out. Satan's time is short because when the 7th Trumpet sounds, that is the end of Satan's 6,000 years of terror against God, and his corruption against the redeemed. If Satan gets his 42 month extension, his time is not short, but extended for another 3.5 years. Satan gets 100% control of earth after the 7th Trumpet sounds. That is the 3rd woe.


If the 3rd woe does not happen, then the millennium starts at the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet sounds, regardless of the 3rd woe. The third woe is allowed so that the rest of redeemed humanity remain in the Lamb's book of life. This is when the mark appears, because those with the mark are removed from the Lamb's book of life. The mark is an expiration date extended past the 7th Trumpet sounding, declaring that time has expired.

The point about Satan being bound is because his time is up. Revelation 12 points out he has had 6,000 years, because his rebel angels have been bound for 6,000 years. They are only loosed upon the earth for a few months at the 5th Trumpet. That would be their little season of terror, after being bound for 6,000 years. That is the first woe. Don't call it a little season of terror, just call it the 1st woe, but they are the same thing. Is a little season 5 months? If there are 3 seasons in a year for 3 different harvests, that would be about 4 months, no? If only 2 seasons per year, still not 6 months for a season, as part of the time is waiting for good weather.

Funny, you claim you hit me hard because you think I have "special revelation", whatever that means. When all I am doing is making you think outside of your comfort zone. You think your comfort zone is special revelation from the Holy Spirit, no? Perhaps not special, but just human theology and human understanding parading around as Spirit led. But I don't claim that you are not led by the Spirit. You seem to just make fun of those who think outside of the Orthodox Box. If making fun of people is hitting them hard, should I say ouch?

Claiming someone has "special revelation" and the constant point "They are the only one who thinks that way", is making fun of and mocking a person. No one agrees with each other on every single jot. We are unique individuals who seek out like minded people, not exact duplicates of one's self, unless you are narcissistic. Then you probably could not even stand to be around that other person. You all can dish out dishonest mocking of other posters, and even get away with it, but start to holler and complain when the truth hits home.

 

[Truth7t7]

Christ has made spiritually alive, and raised believers up together with Him through His Spirit in us. We only live and reign with Christ when we have partaken of His resurrected life. For He is the 'first resurrection' and shall never die again, and it is His first resurrection we MUST have part of in life to ascend to heaven alive after our time, likened a thousand years, is ended by physical death.

As stated, your complete strategy surrounding the words (Thousand Years) is to interpret the words (First Resurrection) in Revelation 20:4-6 as partaking in a (Spiritual Resurrection) at the time of salvation

Your doctrine of a (Spiritual Resurrection) is found no place in scripture, the word (Resurrection) in the Bible is reserved exclusively for the last day (Resurrection) of all

As you have been shown "Several Times" the words (First Resurrection) pertain to the dead in Christ, they will be the (First) to rise in the last day (Resurrection)

You can repeat your private interpretation all you want, a (Spiritual Resurrection) isnt found in the Holy Bible, that's "Your" private interpretation

1 Thessalonians 4:16KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 

[BreadOfLife]

What is or is not in the Protestant canon which precludes or prevents any individual from receiving the Gospel message, and coming to salvation in Christ by grace through faith?

Why do you guys keep dodging the issue?

Why can’t you simply address why you accept the EDITED OT Canon proclaimed by a FALSE prophet who proclaimed a FALSE Christ in the 2nd century - instead of the FULL Canon that Jesus and the NT writers studied from and referenced almost 200 times in the New Testament?

The onus is on YOU to explain why . . .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rev 10 is the only passage connecting the seventh trumpet with the mystery of God that should be fulfilled, when there should be time no longer. Can you prove the mystery fulfilled when time is no longer is not the fullness of the Kingdom of God?

Why would I want to prove that when I believe that the mystery of God will be finished and the kingdom of God will be at its fullness once the seventh trumpet sounds? Are you forgetting what my understanding of the seventh trumpet is? The seventh trumpet signals the end of Satan's little season, the end of sin, the end of death, etc. Christ will return right when the seventh and last trumpet sounds. Then things will happen very quickly including the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the change of our bodies, our being caught up to Him and the destruction of His enemies. Time will end at that point and then eternity will be ushered in and the judgment of all people will occur.

I've never denied the seventh trumpet sounds the last day when Christ comes again.

You haven't? You keep talking about the days of the seventh trumpet as if it sounds for days or at least as if multiple days occur after it sounds. How does that line up with saying that it sounds on the last day when Christ comes again?

I don't understand how the days the seventh trumpet sounds signal the end of Satan's little season, rather than the beginning of his little season, to be concluded on the last day when Christ appears in the clouds.

I don't understand how you don't understand that. As I've said, it's talking about the days leading up to the sounding of the seventh trumpet, not days that follow the sounding of the seventh trumpet. Those days include Satan's little season.

The passage from 1Cor 15:51-52 only mentions the last day of the days when the final trumpet sounds. The same is true for Rev 11:15-18.

That is because there is only one day of activity related to the seventh and last trumpet. And that is why you don't see any other activity anywhere being mentioned in direct relation to the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet. This is what you are missing. You are adding something as occurring after the seventh trumpet sounds which scripture itself does not indicate.

I know you won't accept this, and show using other translations to prove the seventh trumpet sounds only on the last day.

You're right about that.

But regardless of the translation used, they all write the angel sounds for "days" and not just one, the last day.

No, they do not! How does talking about days when an angel is ABOUT TO SOUND the same as the angel actually sounding the trumpet? Sorry for the all caps there. Just trying to show the phrase that it seems like you're missing. I'm not upset. Just baffled.

Let me put it this way. Let's say I'm currently in the process of doing certain things for my job that I've been doing for days that I need to get done before I go on vacation. So, today is one of the days that I'm getting things done since I am about to go on vacation. So, am I already on vacation when I'm about to go on vacation? No. So, these days that I'm doing things that need to be done before I go on vacation are not actually part of my vacation. They lead up to it. Similarly, the days referenced when the angel is about to sound are days leading up to the angel sounding the trumpet. When something is about to happen it hasn't actually happened yet. Surely, you understand that. Let me know if you're seeing my point now or not. I don't know what else I can do to show you what I mean.

I realize you believe these days are those that lead up to the last day, but I've looked at several translations, and though a few could support this opinion, the majority I've searched do not.

But, you're saying that even the ones I showed you (from the NIV and NASB) don't support that opinion even though they do. Days before an event is about to happen can't be included in the event itself. They happen just before the event takes place.

The last/seventh trumpet ushers in a new time, Satan's little season, which comes because the Kingdom of God (mystery) is complete, and the time of God's judgment to be poured upon the earth, which culminates with His wrath when Christ is seen coming in the clouds and the saints are resurrected/raised and changed.

So, you are continuing to insist that no one can be saved during Satan's little season because the kingdom of God is complete before that. I disagree and I've explained why. Maybe we just need to leave it at that at this point.

 

[WPM]

I'm not causing contradiction, nor rejecting what shall be all consummating nature of the return of Christ in the day, which is the final day of the days when the trumpet shall sound. Yes, I agree the seventh trumpet indeed ushers in the time of general judgment coming upon the earth. This time of judgment coming, comes only after the fullness of the Kingdom of God (a thousand years expires). It comes with the days of Satan's little season after the time for building the Kingdom of God through His Gospel sent in the power of Christ's Spirit shall be no longer.

In the same way we don't limit living in these last days to only the last day of these days, neither should we limit the days the seventh trumpet sounds to only the last day of these days when Christ comes again. Yes, all the Scripture pertaining to the last and final day of the days the seventh trumpet sounds are all consummating and climatic like none other. And then the kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of Christ. All is fulfilled in that DAY and the eternal age shall begin. Your focus is only on the final day of the days the seventh trumpet sounds, where I believe the seventh trumpet ushers in time given Satan for a little season because the mystery hidden, that is the Kingdom of God is complete, and time of God's wrath and judgment has come, and time the saints shall receive their eternal reward.

Explain how the opening of the abyss when the 5th trumpet sounds Satan is released before the thousand years expire? Please also explain why, if Satan is released when the 5th trumpet sounds only those who have not the seal of God in their foreheads are tormented for a short period of time then? Wouldn't that contradict Rev 20 which tells us Satan's purpose for being released is to gather Gog & Magog to surround the saints and the beloved city?

The sounding of each of the six trumpets signals some amount of time when whatever is written to happen comes to pass upon the earth. I understand the sounding of the seventh trumpet shall be the last and the full consummation of all that is written which includes the last day in these days the last trumpet sounds. Just as with the other six, the seventh and final trumpet I believe John shows shall also involve some, though small, amount of time or a little season.

Where else in Scripture does it teach that "the Kingdom of God is complete" or "the fullness of the kingdom of God" occurs "after the thousand years expires" and before Satan's little season? Revelation 20 doesn't even say that. That is something you force upon Revelation 20 to justify your own opinion. You have no text that states that, never mind a supporting text. Think about that! That is terrible hermeneutics. This is what Premils do. What is more, this season is probably years. The contrast here is between a large period of time in between the 2 Advents (2000 years+) and a short period of global uprising at the end (probably similar to the 3 1/2 years throughout Revelation).

The tormenting of the minds of the wicked at the 5th trumpet can be equated to the deceiving of the wicked to surround the saints and the beloved city during Satan's little season. These parallel each other. The reality is: the abyss is finally opened and the demonic realm released after being retrained since the earthly ministry of Christ.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I do not believe you. You are living in a deluded bubble. The whole thing is an elaborate religious sham.

11 RCCs are closing in our area because of falling attendances. We (on the other-hand) are needing to build a bigger building to contain what God is doing. People want life. People want truth. People want reality. That is why they are abandoning the dead churches.

And yet, where I live – the Catholic churches are THRIVING and I’ve seen Protestant churches closing all over town.
It depends on where you LIVE, Einstein.

Bo – the sad fact is that attendance is down - ALL over the country, in general.
What color is the sky in YOUR world??

Do your HOMEWORK . . .
In U.S., Decline of Christianity Continues at Rapid Pace | Pew Research Center

 

[WPM]

Rev 10 is the only passage connecting the seventh trumpet with the mystery of God that should be fulfilled, when there should be time no longer. Can you prove the mystery fulfilled when time is no longer is not the fullness of the Kingdom of God? And what is the time given where the saints enter the Kingdom of God to live and reign with Christ?



I've never denied the seventh trumpet sounds the last day when Christ comes again. I don't understand how the days the seventh trumpet sounds signal the end of Satan's little season, rather than the beginning of his little season, to be concluded on the last day when Christ appears in the clouds.

The passage from 1Cor 15:51-52 only mentions the last day of the days when the final trumpet sounds. The same is true for Rev 11:15-18.

I know you won't accept this, and show using other translations to prove the seventh trumpet sounds only on the last day. But regardless of the translation used, they all write the angel sounds for "days" and not just one, the last day. I realize you believe these days are those that lead up to the last day, but I've looked at several translations, and though a few could support this opinion, the majority I've searched do not.

The last/seventh trumpet ushers in a new time, Satan's little season, which comes because the Kingdom of God (mystery) is complete, and the time of God's judgment to be poured upon the earth, which culminates with His wrath when Christ is seen coming in the clouds and the saints are resurrected/raised and changed.

I addressed this subject of the mystery of God in detail above (#8,080 and 8,081) but you failed to address it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And just give ignoramus after ignoramus the license to to vomit out lies about my Church with impunity?
NOT likely . . .

I see mostly truth being told about your false Church here. Many of its doctrines are a complete joke and I've listed some of them. But, you go ahead and bow down to the pope and think that Mary is sinless and you go ahead and eat Jesus's body and drink His blood if you insist on believing in complete unbiblical nonsense. Okay, pal? I know you are stubborn and don't listen to anything, so I'm not going to waste any time trying to convince you of anything.