22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

I’ve seen many people who believed IN Jesus for years BEFORE they confessed their belief IN JESUS IS the Christ and become IN Christ.

I guess in your World when A person first is learning about Jesus, they immediately Confess they believes He is The Christ….

Cool…it only took the Disciples as Adults, learning ABOUT Jesus daily for THREE years to discover Jesus IS the Christ.

And the average person, MAYBE hearing About Jesus in a church for an hour 50 times a year….has it all figured Out that Jesus IS the Christ……

No comparison….on the time frame….
And totally irrelevant that FAITH is given a person in small measures….WHEN they are hearing the Word of God…..
Yup, yup….I presume you perhaps 5 yrs old heard Jesus’ Name and confessed He is the Christ…. BECAUSE you truly believed that in your heart! And those silly old adult Disciples wasted all that time learning ABOUT Jesus, being IN Jesus….before they Knew and confessed they believed He is the Christ and became IN Christ.

This is pure nonsense. Do you expect to be taken seriously with this gibberish? I hope not. Someone can't be "in Jesus" if they don't even believe He is the Christ. What a joke. Please stop making things up to try to support your false doctrine. Just stick to what scripture teaches instead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

...
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth,...


Keep in mind, the saints returned with Christ to earth in the previous chapter. They did not return to heaven.

Where does Revelation 19 say anything about the saints returning with Christ to the earth? I know the souls of the dead in Christ will be with Him and their bodies will be changed and made immortal, but it doesn't say anything about them going to the earth.

Also, please read the following which indicates that Christ's followers had already been made "priests of God and of Christ" before he wrote the book of Revelation:

Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

The timing of this passage should give you an indication of the timing of Revelation 20:6 as well. We need to use scripture to interpret scripture. Many people do not understand that concept, so they end up interpreting one verse or passage in such a way that contradicts others.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The prime example of your twisting and mis-application of the Prophesies.
People DID survive the Flood and the destruction of Sodom. Mortal humankind carried on, as it will after Jesus Returns. Only AFTER the clearly stated Millennium reign of Jesus, will the Eternal state come and there will be no more Death.

Nonsense. No mortal can survive what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12, which is what will happen when Jesus returns. Fire will come down on the entire earth. The only survivors will have been changed to have immortal bodies at that point.

We will all face Judgment at the end of God's decreed time for mankind. Revelation 20:11-15
God will not look kindly on those who have promoted ideas which contradict Bible teaching.

That's bad news for you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Two beliefs that are not true.
The martyrs, that is: only their souls; are kept under the Altar in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11 They don't reign over anyone from there.

We are reigning now? Get real, the Prince of the world is Satan. Matthew 4:8-9 There is no true Christian Government anywhere.

Your understanding of what it means to reign is flawed. John very specifically said that Jesus HAS MADE "us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father" (Revelation 1:5-6) and Peter said that we ARE "a royal priesthood" (1 Peter 2:9). So, scripture says we are reigning now whether you understand how we are reigning or not. You should accept that instead of trying to dictate what it means to reign with Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Good question.

The first resurrection is in 2 parts...

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The Acts 2:38 adhering church, now, is the firstfruits and the beheaded saints of Rev 20 are those that are Christs to be resurrected at his coming per Rev 19-20.

These 2 groups are specifically called to reign with him for the 1000 years on earth.

You're making things up here. Paul did not indicate that the first resurrection is in 2 parts, he indicated that Christ's resurrection itself was the first (the context is the first unto bodily immortality). So, the resurrection of the dead in Christ that will occur at His second coming would be the second resurrection, not the first.

 

[Truth7t7]

When have i said that?

Your continued claims of "Salvation" being a "Spiritual Resurrection" is error, a doctrine not found in scripture

Quote Post #6505 WPM:

"Those in Him overcome the second death through salvation (spiritual resurrection), not through physical resurrection."

 

[covenantee]

We are reigning now? Get real, the Prince of the world is Satan. Matthew 4:8-9 There is no true Christian Government anywhere.

True believers have all of the divine resources necessary to reign over Satan. Obviously you refuse to use them.

So is Satan reigning over you?

 

[covenantee]

Your continued claims of "Salvation" being a "Spiritual Resurrection" is error, a doctrine not found in scripture

Quote Post #6505 WPM:

"Those in Him overcome the second death through salvation (spiritual resurrection), not through physical resurrection."

Remind us what your interpretation of Ephesians 2:1 is.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

By saying the first resurrection does not include us.

The first bodily resurrection unto bodily immortality was Jesus Christ's bodily resurrection. We don't have part in His resurrection bodily, we have part in it spiritually, as passages like Ephesians 2:4-6 and parts of Romans 6 allude to.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is not a direct response. It is an evasive and faulty opinion. Many overlook the phrase "hath part." Whatever that refers to will seal this debate. The unfortunate thing for Premils is that it is present tense. So whatever resurrection it is speaking of, believers currently have their "part" in it. Whatever “the first resurrection” is, participation in it qualifies humans’ to escape the horrors of eternal punishment (the second death). In this experience Christians identify with Christ’s victorious resurrection.

The Greek for “that hath part” is echo méros. The Greek verb echo correctly interpreted “that hath” in the King James Version is written in the present tense and in the active voice. Therefore, we can view the relevance and vitality of “the first resurrection” as being both current and ongoing. Christ’s victory over death is not simply a past event that has no active bearing upon what we are today; it is ongoing reality in the lives of God’s people. The Greek word translated “part” in the text is the word meros meaning share, allotment or portion. This reading tells us that all those that have come to the joy of saving faith in Christ have become partakers in the resurrection life, and through this will escape the horrors of the second death – eternal wrath.

This passage is describing the reality and result of our mystical union with Christ. The expression “in Christ” [Gr. en Christo] is found 216 times in the New Testament and refers to our federal and covenantal standing. It shows us that our spiritual status is totally derived from and dependent upon relationship with Christ. Upon salvation we are united to Christ. He is the head we are the body. The blessing, decisions and authority come through the head.

This matter is absolutely crucial to understanding Revelation 20 and conclusively damning for the Premil doctrine. That is why Premils duck round it.

When we get saved we become one with Jesus Christ spiritually. We identify with Christ and the victory He won over sin, death and the grave. As He died, was buried and conquered death, we also have our “part” in His success.

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

The word “overcometh” here is actually written in the present active particle meaning it relates to the here-and-now. It is an experience that is realized in life. When you have "eth" in the KJV it means it is a present reality.

Exactly. When Premils read Revelation 20:6 they need to consider at what point is it the case that the second death does not have power over someone? Not until a person is bodily resurrected? No. Certainly, once a believer dies and their soul goes to be with the Lord in heaven, the second death has no power over them at that point. So, that means the second death has no power over the souls John saw even now. So, that means they are reigning with Him now.

According to Premil, Revelation 20:6 does not start being fulfilled until Christ returns which would imply that the second death has power over someone all the way up until that time. But, the fact is that the second death has no power over anyone who is in Christ right now. Premils miss the current reality of what Revelation 20:6 is talking about. Revelation 1:5-6 makes it clear that Christ's followers are priests in His kingdom NOW. The second death has no power over those who belong to Christ NOW. That has to be taken into account when interpreting Revelation 20, but Premils ignore all of this.

 

[Truth7t7]

Remind us what your interpretation of Ephesians 2:1 is.

Having God the Holy Spirit indwelling your person being "Quickened" has absolutely "Nothing" to do with the word "Resurrection" that refers to a literal "Physical Event"

The poster WPM claiming in post #6505 seen below, that believers partake in a (Spiritual Resurrection) is a doctrine not found in scripture

Quote Post #6505 WPM:

"Those in Him overcome the second death through salvation (spiritual resurrection), not through physical resurrection."

Ephesians 2:1KJV
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Romans 8:11KJV
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

 

[Truth7t7]

The first bodily resurrection unto bodily immortality was Jesus Christ's bodily resurrection. We don't have part in His resurrection bodily, we have part in it spiritually, as passages like Ephesians 2:4-6 and parts of Romans 6 allude to.

The words (First Resurrection) seen in Revelation 20:6 below has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus being the first fruit of the resurrection

The words (First Resurrection) have to do with the fact that (Two Resurrections) will take place on the last day, and the dead in Christ will be (First) to be resurrected to eternal life, it's that simple and before your eyes

(The First Resurrection)

The Dead In Christ Shall Rise (First)

1 Thessalonians 4:16KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 Revelation 20:6KJV
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The words (First Resurrection) seen in Revelation 20:6 below has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus being the first fruit of the resurrection

The words (First Resurrection) have to do with the fact that (Two Resurrections) will take place on the last day, and the dead in Christ will be (First) to be resurrected to eternal life, it's that simple and before your eyes

(The First Resurrection)

The Dead In Christ Shall Rise (First)

1 Thessalonians 4:16KJV
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

 Revelation 20:6KJV
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

I've already told you before that when it says "the dead in Christ shall rise first", that has nothing to do with "the first resurrection". What Paul was saying there is that the dead in Christ will rise from the dead first before then being caught up to meet the Lord in the air with those who are alive and remain. The order of resurrections is not at all what Paul is referring to in 1 Thess 4:16. You are taking that verse completely out of context.

In that verse Paul was giving an order of events related to believers that will take place after Christ descends from heaven. First, the dead in Christ will rise. Next, they will be caught up with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air. That is the order. To think he is talking about the order of resurrections there is just ridiculous and clearly has nothing to do with the context.

 

[Taken]

Why did you misquote me? Are you that desperate that you have to resort to purposely misquoting people? Here is what I actually said:

"Where does it say anything about Jesus reigning on earth in Revelation 20? Is this all you have? A passage that does not even say anything about Him reigning on earth is the only thing you have to support your view that He will reign on the earth? You have no other NT scripture to back up your view?".

Was my question too difficult for you to answer? Can you show me where in Revelation 20 that it says something about Jesus reigning on the earth? Do you have any other NT scripture that you believe speaks of Jesus reigning on the earth after His return?

I can not read FOR YOU.
I can not study FOR YOU.
Revelations 20 does not NEED to say Christ Jesus shall rule over the “EARTH”, as you demand.

Scripture harmonizes with Scripture and does not require repetition for those who fail to hear, read, study, learn.

Zech 14:
[9] And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

 

[Taken]

Not at all. It is when people resort to UTTER NONSENSE like saying being "in Jesus" and being "in Christ" are different things that is a joke to me. And to many others as well. I would be surprised if anyone agrees with that nonsense.

You worry to much about what MAKES SENSE….to satisfy your CARNAL MIND.

Spiritual Understanding is beyond Carnal Understanding.

Even the Disciples with JESUS daily for 3 years, hearing, listening, doubting, wavering, wondering, believing…..DID NOT GRASP the Spiritual Understanding JESUS IS THE CHRIST, until they were told and CONFESSED their Belief, that Jesus IS THE CHRIST, the Son of the Living God….and thereafter, they received Baptism of the Holy Spirit… nothing new…Same applies.

Actually Scripture says IN Jesus, IN Christ.

Actually Scripture says Belief IN Jesus, is Confessed by saying; A person believes God raised Jesus from the dead.

Actually Scripture says Belief IN Christ, is Confessed by saying: A person believes Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Actually Scripture says JESUS IS: the Word of God.

Actually Scripture says CHRIST IS: the Power, the Wisdom, the Seed of God.

Actually there ARE People who believe IN Jesus, but not that He is the Christ (Messiah).

Actually People who confess BELIEF IN JESUS, and remain IN BELIEF IN JESUS, to the day of their PHYSICAL DEATH….GOD WILL SAVE THEM ON THE DAY OF THEIR PHYSICAL DEATH.

Actually People who confess BELIEF IN JESUS, and that HE IS THE CHRIST….become Crucified with Jesus, bodily accounted Dead…ARE SAVED AT THAT MOMENT…(before PHYSICAL Death)… and CHRIST WILL SAVE THEM.

Hear, read, study, learn….
WHAT and WHEN an individual BELIEVES…
MATTERS!
WHEN they ARE SAVED and BY WHOM….
MATTERS!

A person IN JESUS…..can fall away.
A person IN CHRIST….can NEVER fall away.

IN Jesus….is a person IN the Word of God.
IN Christ….is a person IN the Power of God.
Jesus IN a man….is the Word of God in a man
Christ IN a man….is the Power of God in a man

Basic teaching….and you don’t get it?

 

[Taken]

This is pure nonsense. Do you expect to be taken seriously with this gibberish? I hope not. Someone can't be "in Jesus" if they don't even believe He is the Christ. What a joke. Please stop making things up to try to support your false doctrine. Just stick to what scripture teaches instead.

LOL…Jesus was introduced to the people, long before they knew He is the Christ.

Stay in Gods Order and Way according to His Order and Way.

 

[jeffweeder]

LOL…Jesus was introduced to the people, long before they knew He is the Christ.

Stay in Gods Order and Way according to His Order and Way.

Gods order and way regarding the introduction of Messiah to the people came only through John the Baptist.

26 John answered them, “I baptize [only] in water, but among you there stands One whom you do not recognize and of whom you know nothing. 27 It is He [the preeminent One] who comes after me, the strap of whose sandal I am not worthy to untie [even as His slave].” 28 These things occurred in Bethany across the Jordan [at the Jordan River crossing], where John was baptizing.

29 The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Look! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! 30 This is He on behalf of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I and has priority over me, for He existed before me.’ 31 I did not recognize Him [as the Messiah]; but I came baptizing in water so that He would be [publicly] revealed to Israel.” 32 John gave [further] evidence [testifying officially for the record, with validity and relevance], saying, “I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33 I did not recognize Him [as the Messiah], but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this One is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ 34 I myself have [actually] seen [that happen], and my testimony is that this is the Son of God!”

 

[covenantee]

Having God the Holy Spirit indwelling your person being "Quickened" has absolutely "Nothing" to do with the word "Resurrection" that refers to a literal "Physical Event"

The poster WPM claiming in post #6505 seen below, that believers partake in a (Spiritual Resurrection) is a doctrine not found in scripture

Quote Post #6505 WPM:

"Those in Him overcome the second death through salvation (spiritual resurrection), not through physical resurrection."

Ephesians 2:1KJV
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Romans 8:11KJV
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Does "dead in trespasses and sins" refer to spiritual death or physical death?

 

[Truth7t7]

Does "dead in trespasses and sins" refer to spiritual death or physical death?

You wander off with words of distraction

To be saved and (Quickened) by God the Holy Spirit, has absolutely nothing to do with the word (Resurrection)

The poster WPM claiming in post #6505 seen below, that believers partake in a (Spiritual Resurrection) is a doctrine not found in scripture, it's that simple

Quote Post #6505 WPM:

"Those in Him overcome the second death through salvation (spiritual resurrection), not through physical resurrection."

 

[Truther]

But you are making the first resurrection a future event when Scripture applies it to Christ 2000 years ago. That is where your doctrine falls apart. The "first resurrection" has happened a long time ago. Many Scriptures prove that Christ’s resurrection is the protos or the foremost in time, place, order or importance.

Acts 26:23 presents Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first [Gr. protos] that should rise [Gr. anastasis] from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn (or prototokos) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

The word prototokos here is the combination of protos (Strong’s 4416) and tikto (Strong’s 5088). It means what it says.

Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten (or prototokos) of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

Revelation 20:6 simply says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first [Gr. protos] resurrection [Gr. anastasis]: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

Christ is the resurrection and the life. He is the source of all resurrection to immortality and to divine righteousness.

The first resurrection is Christ's resurrection that we partake in when we are born again. Because we partake in Christ's resurrection (the first), we are spared the second death that comes with the bodily resurrection at the second coming. Contrary to what Premils argue, this is absolute unequivocal corroborative proof that Christ is indeed "the first resurrection" in time and in importance.

The first resurrection is this....


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Did you see that?

This event has not happened yet, but IS THE first resurrection.

But what about all the previous parts???

They are the takings, but not when the human spirit is united with the new body.

The spirit united with a new physical body is the official "first resurrection".

This means that the 1000 year millennial will not be reigned over by headless saints.

Aren't you also glad that the headless saints will reign in new bodies?