22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine
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Most solid believers hold that Jesus is in heaven until the general resurrection/judgment. Have a lot where that occurs in Rev 20 and it will give you a clue. It occurs after the millennium not before it. Also, God's throne is always in heaven in Revelation . Check it out! It is n ot hard to work it out. You impose beliefs upon Rev 20 that are not found anywhere else in Scripture.
Timtofly
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Sorry not a response from Scripture, but human reasoning.
Not talking about God's throne. Jesus sets up a throne at the Second Coming. (Matthew 25:31) That is prior to the 7th Seal opened. That throne is in Jerusalem on earth, for the next 1,000 years. There has not been a throne in Jerusalem during your millennium.
You impose beliefs on Revelation 20 not found in Scripture. The human doctrine of recapitulation is from human imagination. Since you don't have proof, why are you kidding yourself that pre-mill don't have proof?
John is standing on the earth in Revelation 20:1
"And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand."
How can you claim this chapter is not taking place on earth? Is this chapter on earth in your imagined first century version? Is John on earth or heaven? Is the camp of the saints on earth or in heaven? Is Satan let loose in heaven or on earth. You cannot flip flop the scenario on your own whim. Pre-mill have more "on earth" points than you have "not on earth" points.
Why would John not be standing next to Jesus when he watches Satan being bound? Did Jesus just suddenly leave after Satan's defeat at Armageddon? Forget your man made recap. Think outside of your Amil box.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Some people are content with trinkets, others are content with the Truth.
Luke 12:
[51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
The Division is WITH or WITHOUT Christ.
Rev 20:4
…they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
AND AGAIN:
Rev 20:6
…they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
How many times does the Word of God need to be said before you Believe it?
Keraz
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Two beliefs that are not true.
The martyrs, that is: only their souls; are kept under the Altar in heaven. Revelation 6:9-11 They don't reign over anyone from there.
We are reigning now? Get real, the Prince of the world is Satan. Matthew 4:8-9 There is no true Christian Government anywhere.
Speak for yourself. He may be prince of your world, but Satan is not the prince of my world. Your BIG devil and a small god Premil theology is unbiblical. Revelation 20:4 says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be (plural future middle indicative) priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign (plural future middle indicative) with him a thousand years.”
This is speaking from the perspective of the "first resurrection." This can only relate to Christ's glorious victory over the grave that allowed the "souls" of God's people to rise to the heavenly abode during the intermediate state to reign with Christ.
The focus here is what results from the “first resurrection.” It is not just that the elect secure eternal salvation and are saved from the terror of eternal punishment (the second death) but it is that they become kings and priests as a result of this great victory over every enemy that has held man down. It is important to see that the wording here is made in the context of the resurrection. It commenced the millennial period, when Jesus defeated the grave. There is no other first resurrection.
We are reigning now. We are kings and priests on earth now. The "dead in Christ" are kings and priests in heaven now. After we identified with this resurrection we entered into the heavenly reign of Christ in life on earth (in its yet imperfect sense) and in glory (in its more perfect sense) when He comes again.
Acts 17:28 tells us, “For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.”
Through Christ – and what He has secured at Calvary – we now have our standing and inheritance. We possess a spiritual power within us from above since Pentecost that will assure us victory in the many spiritual challenges we face on this earth.
The New Testament respectfully states that we are what we are and we will be what we will be “through Christ” “in Christ” or “by Christ.” Ephesians 5:30 describes the spiritual oneness found in Christ: “For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.” Our “life is hid with Christ in God” (Col 3:3). That means we “are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power” (Col 2:11).
John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made (aorist active indicative) us kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”
We are kings now!!! We therefore reign now!!! This is current and occurs before the second coming of the Lord. This shows what we are now positionally and spiritually “in Christ” – which is reigning in delegated authority will be realised in all its eternal glory physically when we are glorified at Christ’s Coming. The elect of God become kings and priests in salvation when they enter into all the riches of Christ and His glorious power. We become joint-heirs with Him in His current reign and marvellous glory. We become imitators of Him in His humble and contrite earthly ministry. Here again Calvary is given as the transaction that enabled believers to enter into the two spiritual offices described here – kingship and priesthood. Without the cross-work we could never have realised these heavenly privileges.
This dual role of kingship and priesthood is not just restricted to the redeemed in heaven, or does it commence at entry into the heavenly shore, it begins upon this earth at the new birth. The family of God today are positionally reigning as kings and priest in both heaven and on earth. They perform such an awesome function in and through the person of Christ and His impeccable life, His atoning death and victorious resurrection. In fact, 1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church presently – intra-Advent, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”
We are kings and priests today. The demand of a priest was to make a sacrifice
and intercede for the people. We fulfil that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense. The responsibility of a king was to reign and exercise authority and power within the kingdom. We fulfil that spiritually, not in an Old Testament sense.
We are presently a kingly priesthood. This is current and occurs before the second coming of the Lord.
Many Christians are under the mistaken impression that their spiritual kingship and place of reigning in Christ is all yet future; however, whilst our reign is assuredly future, it is also assuredly present.
Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”
We are positionally reigning now in life through Christ. Such was secured through Christ's victorious work at Calvary. There, Christ defeated every enemy of righteousness – including sin, death, the grave, hell, Satan, sickness, the demonic realm, and so on. The people of God, being “in Christ,” have therefore entered into that victory and have been given kingdom authority over the demonic realm through the blood of Jesus when moving in the Spirit and in the will of God. In fact, the word "shall" in the King James Version doesn't actually appear in the original but is added by the translators.
Listen to what Paul teaches in Romans 8:16-17: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together."
Being “joint-heirs with Christ” means that we enjoy the benefits and privileges of what He won for us through His sinless life, His atoning death, and His victorious resurrection. What is more, as "joint-heirs with Christ" we reign because He reigns.
When we put on Christ in salvation we entered into His kingdom and therefore came under His kingship, which resulted in us being placed in heavenly authority with kingly robes. The elect of God today “are ambassadors for Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:20). The reason being, “he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).
The Greek word for “heir” is kleronomos meaning ‘getting by apportionment’, it can be interpreted ‘an inheritor or a possessor’. This is what happens upon salvation, we were adopted into the family of God and became one with Christ, whereupon, through Christ, we assumed a heavenly inheritance.
Christians do not lose any of their spiritual power when they die, they continue to reign "in Christ" because they are one with Him. They rule because He rules. It is Premil that always wants to diminish the power and authority of Christ and His Church in life and in death.
Keraz
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Satan was the Principal power over the world when Jesus was here, he offered it to Jesus on the Mt of Temptation.
Satan was behind the Jews who demanded that Jesus be Crucified. Now; Satan is like a roaring lion, deceiving people and orchestrating things like the Holocaust.
He is NOT chained up now, although he is restricted from interfering with true Christian believers.
This is a very pretentious belief, just wishful thinking that is not anywhere to be found in the Bible.
Hebrews 9:27 says we die and the next thing we know is when we stand before God in Judgment. Which we know will take place after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15
Many verses say the dead 'sleep' in their graves; they await the final Trumpet call to rise and hear their verdict from the Book of Life.
Taken
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Warning…When YOU CHANGE a single Word of Scripture YOU CHANGE the KNOWLEDGE, which LEADS to CHANGING the UNDERSTANDING.
SHALL reign
And
ARE reigning
do NOT mean the same thing.
UnSAVED SOULS of men “WITH” Jesus, ARE “BODILY” ALIVE SERVANTS of Jesus, And “CAN” fall away.
SOUL SAV-ED, Men “WITH-IN” Jesus, ARE “BODILY” DEAD, SERVANTS, that “SHALL NEVER” fall away.
And SHALL reign WITH Christ Jesus 1,000 years.
Men “WITH-IN” Christ, ARE “SOUL SAV-ED” SERVANTS And “can NEVER” fall away.
And SHALL reign WITH Christ Jesus 1,000 years.
A SAV-ED Soul is one thing.
A Soul IS SAV-ED AFTER a BODILY DEATH.
SAVING a SOUL, IS “KEEPING” THAT SOUL ALIVE.
A QUICKENED (Born Again Spirit) is another thing.
A Spirit IS QUICKENED AFTER a BODILY DEATH.
QUICKENING a SPIRIT, IS “CUTTING OFF the OLD natural SPIRIT, (called CIRCUMCISION) and “GIVING” THAT SPIRIT A NEW “seed”, which BIRTHS a NEW SPIRIT.
** No souls ARE REIGNING WITH CHRIST NOW.
** SAVED SOULS (IN Heaven, ON Earth) ARE SERVING Christ Jesus NOW.
Christ Jesus’ KINGDOM OF “THIS EARTHLY WORLD” is ESTABLISHED, SHALL BE, BUT OF YET, IS NOT MANIFESTED, (Come to pass).
John 18:
[36] Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.
Christ Jesus’ KINGDOM OF THIS WORLD, SHALL BE Manifested, (REVEALED) WHEN Jesus RETURNS TO Earth, “WITH” Power (CHRIST), BEING “KING of kings”, WITH “His Faithful “SOUL SAVED and SPIRIT QUICKENED SAINTS”.
AND HE SHALL FOR 1,000 Years REIGN WITH His “IMMORTAL” SAINTS, “OVER” the “MORTAL “kings” OF THE EARTH”,
AFTER THE 1,000 YEARS ARE FINISHED…
THERE SHALL BE “NO MORE” MORTALS, OR MORTAL “kings OF the EARTH”!
And BTW, there SHALL BE, “NO MORE” a DEMONIC “Prince” OF the EARTH)…SATAN, present ON the Earth SHALL CEASE FOREVER.
Christ Jesus DOES NOT MAKE MEN, “kings” of the EARTH (Mortal men DO).
Christ Jesus SHALL MAKE IMMORTAL men…
Priests OF God, OF Christ!
Mortal men make (ANOINT) mortal men, and call them Priests, OF man made churches, TO Serve MORTALS.
Christ Jesus SHALL MAKE (ANOINT) immortal men, and call them Priests OF God, OF Christ, TO Serve God and Christ.
You are trying to put the cart before the horse. Christ Jesus’ KINGDOM IS NOT YET Manifested IN this World.
Taken
Well-Known Member
Again you do not pay Close attention to WORDS….”IN”…”OF”.
All mortals ARE “bodily” IN “THIS WORLD”.
Some mortals ARE “OF” “THIS WORD”.
Some mortals have “GIVEN” their “Bodily LIFE” unto DEATH, and “LIVE IN Christ Jesus’” RISEN BODY…called “IN Christ”.
YET ARE STILL …Body, Soul, Spirit… IN this World.
A mortal man, Body crucified, Soul Saved, Spirit QUICKENED….is STILL “IN” this World BUT NO LONGER ACCOUNTED, “OF” this World.
HE “SHALL” BE….(but IS NOT YET manifested, RISEN UP).
IN His OWN, NEW BODY.
WHILE THAT^^^ mans BODY continues TO physically LIVE “ON” this Earth….IN his natural mortal BODY…..he is continuously A TARGET of Persecution…
“OF”
The the Powerful EVIL Prince OF THIS WORLD….SATAN
“AND OF”
Power Positioned WICKED Men OF THIS WORLD….Governing and Wealthy.
Men IN Jesus, are WITH Jesus, AND CAN, rely ON Jesus’ COMFORT, THROUGH the Persecutions OF EVIL and Wicked powers OF THIS WORLD…..”OR” ABANDON Jesus, and CHOOSE “INSTEAD”, the “temporary” promises of “peace, safety, protections” OF EVIL spirits and WICKED men.
Men IN Christ, are WITH Christ Jesus, and WILL BE PERSECUTED BY WICKED MEN, “OF” this World, who ARE, Influence BY THE
EVIL Prince OF this world…AND Comforted “BY” Christ Jesus’ POWER “WITH and IN” them.
Yes there IS a SPIRITUAL difference between “OF” and “IN”…..regarding MORTAL MEN.
ALL mortal men ARE “IN” this world.
But ALL mortal men ARE NOT “OF” this world.
Christ Jesus IS “NEITHER” “OF” this world, or “IN” this world.
Christ Jesus IS “OF” HIS World and “IN” HIS WORLD….HEAVEN.
Christ Jesus IS “WITH and IN” His “SERVANTS”.
Christ Jesus “SHALL BE” “IN” His EARTHLY KINGDOM…WHEN He CLAIMS “HIS Inheritance”…(Abraham’s Promised LAND, and king DAVIDS THRONE.)
Christ Jesus’ SERVANTS SHALL BE His ANOINTED Priests reigning WITH Him OVER mortals FOR 1,000 years.
THEREAFTER….there shall be NO MORE “earthly” kings, no mortals, ONLY Faithful immortals and God and His immortal People.
2 Cor 6:
[16] And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Rev 21:
[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
These people of the earth survived the 1000 year millenial....
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth,...
Billions and billions of folks.
For clarification of scripture.
Jesus is reigning right now over the willing.
Satan reigns over the unwilling.(No man can serve 2 masters).
The point of the millenial reign of Christ is to physically force His will over all earth's inhabitants.
Thus, He reigns yet SHALL reign.
Jesus is reigning right now over the willing.
Satan reigns over the unwilling.(No man can serve 2 masters).
The point of the millenial reign of Christ is to physically force His will over all earth's inhabitants.
Thus, He reigns yet SHALL reign.
Premillennialist hermeneutics are horrible. They absolutely butcher the essential principle of corroboration. You interpret (explain away) every passage in Holy Writ by your faulty private interpretation of one highly symbolic chapter (Revelation 20), which just so happens to be the only passage in the Old or New Testament that mentions a thousand years reign. Premils are fixated with Revelation 20. They view all Scripture through that lens. This is ridiculous hermeneutics.
You support my claims in the Op: (1) Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20. It interprets the rest of Scripture in the light of its opinion of one lone highly-debated chapter located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. All end-time Scripture is viewed through the lens of Revelation 20. This is not a very wise way to establish any truth or doctrine. Take this passage out of the equation and Premillennialism has nothing in the inspired pages to support their main tenets. Amils have a problem with, and very much disagree with this form of hermeneutics and exegesis of many Scriptures.
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Where in Revelation 20 does it teach that "The point of the millenial reign of Christ is to physically force His will over all earth's inhabitants"?
Good question.
The first resurrection is in 2 parts...
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
The Acts 2:38 adhering church, now, is the firstfruits and the beheaded saints of Rev 20 are those that are Christs to be resurrected at his coming per Rev 19-20.
These 2 groups are specifically called to reign with him for the 1000 years on earth.
The Prophet Zech teaches it, about the same 2nd coming/forced worship during his reign, scenario....
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.(AKA REV 19)
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Jesus is the first resurrection from the grave. No one before Him defeated death. Any resurrection after Him is secondary. Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5). Amils believe in corroboration. Multiple Scripture proves that the first resurrection of Jesus occurred 2000 years ago.
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