22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[WPM]

The Prophet Zech teaches it, about the same 2nd coming/forced worship during his reign, scenario....


14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.(AKA REV 19)

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the Lord shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Could any Premil please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)?

 

[WPM]

All you do is complain via paragraghs.

I post passages that are self explanatory.

I highlight words you don't like, evolving by blind biases in your mind.

No, you do not. What you present does not say what you have been taught. Quite the opposite. The passages you (and Premils) promote to support Premil actually demolish it. You have zero corroboration for your private opinion of Revelation 20.

 

[Truther]

Jesus is the first resurrection from the grave. No one before Him defeated death. Any resurrection after Him is secondary. Jesus is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5). Amils believe in corroboration. Multiple Scripture proves that the first resurrection of Jesus occurred 2000 years ago.

No, the first resurrection is officially made complete in Rev 20 to come. Nobody has a new glorified body yet but Jesus. The saints that died are in this state of being right now....

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 

[Truther]

Could any Premil please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)?

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean....


4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

No, you do not. What you present does not say what you have been taught. Quite the opposite. The passages you (and Premils) promote to support Premil actually demolish it. You have zero corroboration for your private opinion of Revelation 20.

Per my last post. I only posted scripture that is self explanatory.

No comments at all.

No sales pitch, etc.

Try it.

 

[WPM]

No, the first resurrection is officially made complete in Rev 20 to come. Nobody has a new glorified body yet but Jesus. The saints that died are in this state of being right now....

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Those in Him overcome the second death through salvation (spiritual resurrection), not through physical resurrection. This is accomplished by His first resurrection. There is multiple Scripture to back that up.

 

[WPM]

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean....


4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

Per my last post. I only posted scripture that is self explanatory.

No comments at all.

No sales pitch, etc.

Try it.

Why did you not just answer "no"? That is because no Premil can compare them because they do not correlate.

 

[Truther]

Those in Him overcome the second death through salvation (spiritual resurrection), not through physical resurrection. This is accomplished by His first resurrection. There is multiple Scripture to back that up.

Right, the second death is for those that disobeyed Acts 2:38, etc.

The first resurrection is for those that get a new body as Jesus had after his resurrection and ate, drank etc, with them for 40 days.

This is the (visible to all) body we return with Christ to earth with, per Rev 19 and Zech 14.

The inhabitants of earth will be blown away as every eye will see him(and us as we reign with him over them).

 

[Truther]

Why did you not just answer "no"? That is because no Premil can compare them because they do not correlate.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean....


4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.


No?

You cannot see the saints returning here in both passages?

Is preterism that important to you?

 

[WPM]

Right, the second death is for those that disobeyed Acts 2:38, etc.

The first resurrection is for those that get a new body as Jesus had after his resurrection and ate, drank etc, with them for 40 days.

This is the (visible to all) body we return with Christ to earth with, per Rev 19 and Zech 14.

The inhabitants of earth will be blown away as every eye will see him(and us as we reign with him over them).

Not so. The first resurrection is Jesus - and Him alone. We have our "part" in Him through salvation (spiritual resurrection), not through physical resurrection. It is through salvation that we overcome the second death. There is multiple Scripture to back that up. I can give some if you want.

 

[Timtofly]

Could any Premil please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)?

Why? I thought you were tired of hearing about Revelation 20. It is just blah blah blah?

The point about Zechariah 14 is that Jesus is on an earth that is not obliterated by Amil dogma. In fact Zechariah 14 is pre-trib, and not post trib. That is why you all put it in the first century pre-trib. There is no Second Coming any where in Revelation 20, not at the start of the chapter, nor the end of the chapter. Zechariah 14 is the Second Coming to Jerusalem, when Jesus sets up a throne and kingdom on earth. This is not an invisible spiritual kingdom based on symbolism foisted onto the chapter. Zechariah 14 is a literal event.

Those beheaded in Revelation 20 were literal beheadings. Not some spiritual mumbo jumbo about daily crucifying the flesh, and living in a state of death during the last 1993 years.

There is nothing in Zechariah 14 about Jesus coming as the humble Lamb to be the propitiation for the sins of mankind. Zechariah 14 is Jesus as King, ruling over a restored Jerusalem. Not even the heavenly New Jerusalem of Revelation 21. Zechariah 14 is not Revelation 21.

Zechariah 14 would be the events of Revelation 6 at the 6th Seal. That would take place before the Trumpets even sound.

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"

"Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light."

Jesus is shown to deal with all the kings and nations in both chapters. Which is also seen in Matthew 24 and 25. They are hiding out in the mountains and under the rubble, rocks. The heavens are dissolved in both chapters according to 2 Peter 3, at the Second Coming. (Neither light nor darkness) The Second Coming is the coming of the Day of the Lord. Jesus has to literally clean house, before the literal Day of the Lord, 1,000 years per 2 Peter 3. In Revelation 6, all humanity can see the face of God sitting on the GWT. That in itself will light up the earth. Right now the GWT is hidden from human sight.

You can use Zechariah 14 as the spiritual light brought to the world in type by the first coming and Cross. However, Zechariah 14 will be literal at the Second Coming. A point you dismiss away with a wave of your theological imagination. Some of us can see both interpretations as plausible and viable.

In Zechariah 14, Jerusalem is the spiritual and economic center of the earth, ruled by Jesus Christ come to earth. That has not been the case during the last 1993 years, because even at that point, the first time, Jesus admitted that His kingdom would not be set up physically, but would be spiritual in the hearts of humanity.

BTW on earth we are not kings reigning, but ambassadors of that heavenly city representing Christ. 2 Corinthians 5:17-20

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God."

There is no kingdom on earth to rule over sinful mankind and force righteousness in the world. The kingship is in heaven with those already there, spiritual high places. Zechariah 14 is after the earthly kingdom is set up. Righteousness and sin will be as described in Daniel 9:24, and will only happen after the Second Coming and the 70th week will be declared complete by Jesus, the Prince to come. The 7th Trumpet is the declaration the 70th week is fulfilled. But before that Jesus as Prince/King has to come per Zechariah 14, and Daniel 9.

 

[Truther]

Not so. The first resurrection is Jesus - and Him alone. We have our "part" in Him through salvation (spiritual resurrection), not through physical resurrection. It is through salvation that we overcome the second death. There is multiple Scripture to back that up. I can give some if you want.

You metaphorized yourself right out of taking part in the first resurrection and his subsequent reign.


6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[WPM]

You metaphorized yourself right out of taking part in the first resurrection and his subsequent reign.


6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

That is not a direct response. It is an evasive and faulty opinion. Many overlook the phrase "hath part." Whatever that refers to will seal this debate. The unfortunate thing for Premils is that it is present tense. So whatever resurrection it is speaking of, believers currently have their "part" in it. Whatever “the first resurrection” is, participation in it qualifies humans’ to escape the horrors of eternal punishment (the second death). In this experience Christians identify with Christ’s victorious resurrection.

The Greek for “that hath part” is echo méros. The Greek verb echo correctly interpreted “that hath” in the King James Version is written in the present tense and in the active voice. Therefore, we can view the relevance and vitality of “the first resurrection” as being both current and ongoing. Christ’s victory over death is not simply a past event that has no active bearing upon what we are today; it is ongoing reality in the lives of God’s people. The Greek word translated “part” in the text is the word meros meaning share, allotment or portion. This reading tells us that all those that have come to the joy of saving faith in Christ have become partakers in the resurrection life, and through this will escape the horrors of the second death – eternal wrath.

This passage is describing the reality and result of our mystical union with Christ. The expression “in Christ” [Gr. en Christo] is found 216 times in the New Testament and refers to our federal and covenantal standing. It shows us that our spiritual status is totally derived from and dependent upon relationship with Christ. Upon salvation we are united to Christ. He is the head we are the body. The blessing, decisions and authority come through the head.

This matter is absolutely crucial to understanding Revelation 20 and conclusively damning for the Premil doctrine. That is why Premils duck round it.

When we get saved we become one with Jesus Christ spiritually. We identify with Christ and the victory He won over sin, death and the grave. As He died, was buried and conquered death, we also have our “part” in His success.

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

The word “overcometh” here is actually written in the present active particle meaning it relates to the here-and-now. It is an experience that is realized in life. When you have "eth" in the KJV it means it is a present reality.

 

[Truth7t7]

Those in Him overcome the second death through salvation (spiritual resurrection), not through physical resurrection. This is accomplished by His first resurrection. There is multiple Scripture to back that up.

Your continued claim of a "Spiritual Resurrection" is false, you take a future literal event "Resurrection" that takes place at the second coming on the last day, and you try to was it away in allegory and symbolism as 8f it's fulfilled "Wrong"

Resurrection = Future Event At The Second Coming

 

[WPM]

You metaphorized yourself right out of taking part in the first resurrection and his subsequent reign.


6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

When have i said that?

 

[Truther]

That is not a direct response. It is an evasive and faulty opinion. Many overlook the phrase "hath part." Whatever that refers to will seal this debate. The unfortunate thing for Premils is that it is present tense. So whatever resurrection it is speaking of, believers currently have their "part" in it. Whatever “the first resurrection” is, participation in it qualifies humans’ to escape the horrors of eternal punishment (the second death). In this experience Christians identify with Christ’s victorious resurrection.

The Greek for “that hath part” is echo méros. The Greek verb echo correctly interpreted “that hath” in the King James Version is written in the present tense and in the active voice. Therefore, we can view the relevance and vitality of “the first resurrection” as being both current and ongoing. Christ’s victory over death is not simply a past event that has no active bearing upon what we are today; it is ongoing reality in the lives of God’s people. The Greek word translated “part” in the text is the word meros meaning share, allotment or portion. This reading tells us that all those that have come to the joy of saving faith in Christ have become partakers in the resurrection life, and through this will escape the horrors of the second death – eternal wrath.

This passage is describing the reality and result of our mystical union with Christ. The expression “in Christ” [Gr. en Christo] is found 216 times in the New Testament and refers to our federal and covenantal standing. It shows us that our spiritual status is totally derived from and dependent upon relationship with Christ. Upon salvation we are united to Christ. He is the head we are the body. The blessing, decisions and authority come through the head.

This matter is absolutely crucial to understanding Revelation 20 and conclusively damning for the Premil doctrine. That is why Premils duck round it.

When we get saved we become one with Jesus Christ spiritually. We identify with Christ and the victory He won over sin, death and the grave. As He died, was buried and conquered death, we also have our “part” in His success.

This is supported by Revelation 2:11, which similarly says: “He that overcometh (present active particle) shall not be hurt of the second death.”

The word “overcometh” here is actually written in the present active particle meaning it relates to the here-and-now. It is an experience that is realized in life. When you have "eth" in the KJV it means it is a present reality.

You went way out in left field with your "interpretation".

Here is the real "part" that the first resurrection consists of....

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

 

[Truther]

When have i said that?

By saying the first resurrection does not include us.

 

[WPM]

You went way out in left field with your "interpretation".

Here is the real "part" that the first resurrection consists of....

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

But you are making the first resurrection a future event when Scripture applies it to Christ 2000 years ago. That is where your doctrine falls apart. The "first resurrection" has happened a long time ago. Many Scriptures prove that Christ’s resurrection is the protos or the foremost in time, place, order or importance.

Acts 26:23 presents Christ’s physical resurrection as the first resurrection, saying, “Christ should suffer, and that He should be the first [Gr. protos] that should rise [Gr. anastasis] from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles."

Colossians 1:18 closely mirrors Acts 26:23, saying, “And he (Christ) is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn (or prototokos) from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.”

The word prototokos here is the combination of protos (Strong’s 4416) and tikto (Strong’s 5088). It means what it says.

Revelation 1:5 uses the same Greek word to describe Christ’s triumphant resurrection, saying, “Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten (or prototokos) of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth.”

Paul similarly says in 1 Corinthians 15:20, “now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.”

Revelation 20:6 simply says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first [Gr. protos] resurrection [Gr. anastasis]: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

Christ is the resurrection and the life. He is the source of all resurrection to immortality and to divine righteousness.

The first resurrection is Christ's resurrection that we partake in when we are born again. Because we partake in Christ's resurrection (the first), we are spared the second death that comes with the bodily resurrection at the second coming. Contrary to what Premils argue, this is absolute unequivocal corroborative proof that Christ is indeed "the first resurrection" in time and in importance.

 

[WPM]

By saying the first resurrection does not include us.

We have our part in it spiritually by faith. Romans 6:4 says, “like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”

Colossians 2:12 again concurs, saying, “ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

Paul connects the physical death and resurrection of Christ to man’s salvation. We take part in His resurrection by first identifying ourselves with Him in being considered dead unto sin (which is repentance – a turning away from sin) and alive unto God through faith. He equates his death to self and spiritual resurrection unto eternal life unto the transaction that Christ procured 2,000 years ago.

We see this great truth repeated many times in the book of Romans.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL….and..
you speaking to me is the only thing I have to support a view that you are speaking to me…

Why did you misquote me? Are you that desperate that you have to resort to purposely misquoting people? Here is what I actually said:

"Where does it say anything about Jesus reigning on earth in Revelation 20? Is this all you have? A passage that does not even say anything about Him reigning on earth is the only thing you have to support your view that He will reign on the earth? You have no other NT scripture to back up your view?".

Was my question too difficult for you to answer? Can you show me where in Revelation 20 that it says something about Jesus reigning on the earth? Do you have any other NT scripture that you believe speaks of Jesus reigning on the earth after His return?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I’m sure Scripture is big rolling joke for you.
Laugh away….

Not at all. It is when people resort to UTTER NONSENSE like saying being "in Jesus" and being "in Christ" are different things that is a joke to me. And to many others as well. I would be surprised if anyone agrees with that nonsense.