22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

Obviously you haven't got the guts and moral courage to post scriptures that prove you wrong.

Why deny the Millennium? It is God's reward to Jesus. Psalms 2:6-9

Have you actually read Psalm 2:6-9? It describes Jesus destroying His enemies, not ruling over them.

Psalm 2:Ask me, and I will make the nations your inheritance, the ends of the earth your possession. 9 You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Thieves don't come quickly they come unexpectedly, which is why we need to be alert at all times.

But, to those who aren't expecting the thief it's as if he came quickly because he is just suddenly there without them knowing he was coming. And scripture indicates that once Jesus arrives unexpectedly like a thief in the night, it will be accompanied by global destruction at that time, not 1000+ years later. That is what is clearly indicated in passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. Those passages describe the global destruction as accompanying the arrival of Jesus that is like a thief in the night. Paul describes it as "sudden destruction" that comes with the arrival of the day of the Lord. It wouldn't be very sudden if it didn't actually occur until 1000+ years later.

Why else would both Peter and Paul warn their readers to be alert and careful about their behavior in anticipation of that day? It is because they didn't want their readers to be among those who are destroyed on that day. If the destruction doesn't actually occur until 1000+ years later after Jesus returns, then what was the point of Peter and Paul warning their readers about it?

 

[Truth7t7]

Preterist error? I believe the return of Jesus is in the future, not 70 AD. You are confused.

I Agree, wrong book and chapter

However your preterist error is found in Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation that are future events unfulfilled, and not your preterist claims of 66-70AD fulfillment

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Okay, I see your point. But one needs to realize that Paul has summarized a much larger picture. The summary is a bit misleading if one is not aware of the bigger picture.

If I should say, "I looked out the window and saw a boat floating up the street," this might seem a bit strange. But what if I said, "We are in the middle of a hurricane, and when I looked out the window, I saw a boat floating up the street." The larger context informs my earlier sentence.

Jesus will be revealed from heaven. And he will be accompanied by angels. And some of those "angels" are the fire itself. And the fire will incinerate God's enemies. All of that is true.

Now, Paul's statements are informed by the bigger picture, which is found in the prophets. One of those prophets is Malachi, where the Lord says that he will incinerate the arrogantly evil among those living in Israel, and those who fear the Lord will walk on their ashes. Malachi 4.

From this passage we understand that the Second Advent is not coming with a total destruction of the earth. Rather, the fires that accompany the Lord's return are regional fires, located in the land of Palestine, and according to the prophets, God sends the fires in order to purify the land from wickedness.

In 2 Peter 3:10-12, Peter described the fire that will come upon the arrival of Christ. Does 2 Peter 3:10-12 seem like a description of regional fires to you? It absolutely does not come across that way at all. Was Peter trying to confuse people?

What is it that Peter said we are looking forward to as a result of what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12? An earthly millennial kingdom? Or something else, like, say, the new heavens and new earth? In 2 Peter 3:13, Peter indicated that we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in fulfilling the promise of Christ's second coming. If the new heavens and new earth aren't ushered in until 1000+ years after His second coming, then please explain how 2 Peter 3:13 could make any sense in that case?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I Agree, wrong book and chapter

However your preterist error is found in Daniel's AOD and The Great Tribulation that are future events unfulfilled, and not your preterist claims of 66-70AD fulfillment

Was this really necessary for you to butt in like this and bring up a different subject? What we were talking about had nothing to do with the AOD and great tribulation. We were talking about the type of destruction that will occur when Christ returns, which will be fire. And I know you agree with that.

 

[Truth7t7]

Was this really necessary for you to butt in like this and bring up a different subject? What we were talking about had nothing to do with the AOD and great tribulation.

The subject was Preterism, Keraz had the wrong application on your Preterist belief

Yes your Preterist in your eschatology, but it has to do with Matthew 24:15 in Daniel's AOD and Matthew 24:21 The Great Tribulation, that you believe and teach were fulfilled in 66-70AD

Yes we agree on the false teachings regarding Millennialism, but we don't agree regarding the false teachings within Preterism

One thing (Dispensationalism), (Millennialism), And (Preterism) have in common is, they're all false teachings

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The subject was Preterism, Keraz had the wrong application on your Preterist belief

No, the subject was not preterism. Read the discussion again and you should see that. I don't know why he mentioned preterism there, but I do not have a preterist interpretation of Revelation 19. We were discussing the type of destruction that will occur when Christ returns in the future. He was denying that it will be fire, so I was responding to that. I believe Revelation 19 describes the future return of Christ and not something that happened in 70 AD. So, he was confused and must have forgotten how I interpreted Revelation 19 or something.

So, again, we were talking about Revelation 19 and what will happen when Christ returns, not about Matthew 24:15. So, try to stay on subject when you respond to posts instead of unnecessarily bringing up other topics.

 

[Truth7t7]

No, the subject was not preterism. Read the discussion again and you should see that. I don't know why he mentioned preterism there, but I do not have a preterist interpretation of Revelation 19. We were discussing the type of destruction that will occur when Christ returns in the future. He was denying that it will be fire, so I was responding to that. I believe Revelation 19 describes the future return of Christ and not something that happened in 70 AD. So, he was confused and must have forgotten how I interpreted Revelation 19 or something.

So, again, we were talking about Revelation 19 and what will happen when Christ returns, not about Matthew 24:15. So, try to stay on subject when you respond to posts instead of unnecessarily bringing up other topics.

I was totally on subject to the post of Keraz, he mentioned pretersm in association with what he thought was your belief, I gave correction on what your preterist belief is, it's that simple

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I was totally on subject to the post of Keraz, he mentioned pretersm in association with what he thought was your belief, I gave correction on what your preterist belief is, it's that simple

It was completely unnecessary. The subject being discussed was the future return of Christ. But, I'm not going to waste any more time trying to explain this to you. Just read the discussion again and you'll see there was no basis for him to bring up preterism there. And there's no basis for you to chime in about preterism, either, when the discussion was about what will happen when Christ returns in the future.

 

[jeffweeder]

In 2 Peter 3:10-12, Peter described the fire that will come upon the arrival of Christ. Does 2 Peter 3:10-12 seem like a description of regional fires to you? It absolutely does not come across that way at all. Was Peter trying to confuse people?

Clearly he left no room for confusion. You only have to take Peters advice and read Pauls letters regarding this issue of the blessed hope of his coming. It clearly results into an expectation of a NHNE at his coming , as Jesus had said that heaven and earth would pass at his coming.
It's really very simple if we fix our eyes on Jesus own words.


[What is it that Peter said we are looking forward to as a result of what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12? An earthly millennial kingdom? Or something else, like, say, the new heavens and new earth?]


Amen , yes it is really that simple. We look for a NHNE because Jesus said that the old Heaven and earth pass away when he comes again.

No choice but to expect what Jesus promised his sheep when he comes again. God's original idea from the foundation of the world is our one and only logical expectation.


31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Problem is your interpretation of "Rod Of Iron"?

Many falsely believe and teach its some sort of (Rulers Scepter) "Wrong"!

A "Rod Of Iron" is a "Tool Of Destruction" that a Potter destroys clay vessels with

Jesus returns and destroy's the wicked like a Potter destroy's his vessels with a "Rod Of Iron" its that simple

Sad part is, many have been clearly shown this truth several times, and they continue to teach error

The "Rod Of Iron" is a "Tool Of Destruction" not a "Kings Scepter" as many falsely believe and teach

Psalm 2:9KJV
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 19:15KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

One breaks pots with a rod of iron. One does not rule nations by killing all the people. The pots represent the sovereign governments, which Jesus will abolish when he returns. Refer to Daniel 7.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Your now a Greek scholar, this is just one verse showing the fire is global, consisting of the entire earth

Sad part is, you are clearly shown biblical truth, and you will continue to teach otherwise

"Who Shall Stand When He Appeareth"? Nobody!

"The Earth Melted"

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Fire appears on more than one occasion during the eschaton.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Revelation 19 is climactic. It is the end of the world.

I see nothing in Chapter 19, hinting of the end of the world.

 

[WPM]

If Jesus destroys everything when he returns, how is he going to rule the nations with a rod of iron?

You have obviously no answer to the truth presented here. Telling!

 

[WPM]

I was totally on subject to the post of Keraz, he mentioned pretersm in association with what he thought was your belief, I gave correction on what your preterist belief is, it's that simple

That is not true. You are twisting the facts.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No. You explained it away.

I explained it the way Peter meant it.

How can anyone survive this? They cannot! It's impossible!

Even if Peter were talking about the total destruction of the earth, though I don't think he is, The context is clearly "The Day of the Lord", which takes place over a thousand years or more. In my view, if Peter is talking about total destruction, he is talking about Revelation 20:11.

In other words, 2 Peter 3 is not incompatible with Premillennialism.

 

[WPM]

I explained it the way Peter meant it.

Even if Peter were talking about the total destruction of the earth, though I don't think he is, The context is clearly "The Day of the Lord", which takes place over a thousand years or more. In my view, if Peter is talking about total destruction, he is talking about Revelation 20:11.

In other words, 2 Peter 3 is not incompatible with Premillennialism.

Not true! There is nothing you or any other Premil can do with 2 Peter 3 apart from explain it away. It is Amils that take literal passages like this literal. This is a watertight passage. Peter could not have made it any more destructive or climactic. Your conclusion is nonsensical - propelling the destruction to 1000 years after the second coming. That is ridiculous! The whole thrust of Peter's teaching is on the wholesale destruction that catches the wicked unawares.

It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years later. If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is a complete absurdity as Christ’s coming (or parousia) is long past.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why did you say this?

Because WPM said that Jesus comes back after the Millennium.

He said this: Did you somehow not know that this is what Amillennialists believe?

I know. He gets confused. In his haste to answer my post, he spoke as a Postmillennialist. He later suggested that the two schools of thought share some things in common. He doesn't actually believe in Postmillennialism.

Both teach that Jesus returns after the Millennial period is over. As far as I can tell, that is about all they share in common. WPM believes in an idealized form of the millennium, wherein Christ rules in the hearts of his followers from heaven. Postmillennialists believe that Christ commanded his followers to subdue the planet and rule over Earth for a thousand years. Then the Messiah will come.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You must be reading different text than I am. Let's take a look at it.

Revelation 19:15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords. 17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

How exactly does the figurative description of birds eating the flesh "of all people, free and slave, great and small" describe subjugating people rather than destroying them? How does striking down the nations equate to subjugating them rather than destroying them?

The text is focused on the soldiers of the armies, not those who stayed home. Jesus will rule over those that didn't fight, those that survived.

 

[CadyandZoe]

But, to those who aren't expecting the thief it's as if he came quickly because he is just suddenly there without them knowing he was coming. And scripture indicates that once Jesus arrives unexpectedly like a thief in the night, it will be accompanied by global destruction at that time, not 1000+ years later. That is what is clearly indicated in passages like 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12. Those passages describe the global destruction as accompanying the arrival of Jesus that is like a thief in the night. Paul describes it as "sudden destruction" that comes with the arrival of the day of the Lord. It wouldn't be very sudden if it didn't actually occur until 1000+ years later.

Why else would both Peter and Paul warn their readers to be alert and careful about their behavior in anticipation of that day? It is because they didn't want their readers to be among those who are destroyed on that day. If the destruction doesn't actually occur until 1000+ years later after Jesus returns, then what was the point of Peter and Paul warning their readers about it?

The Bible doesn't teach global destruction after Jesus returns. The book of Revelation speaks about two distinct times of destruction, the trumpets and the vials. Jesus comes at the Seventh Trumpet, not the Seventh vial.