22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

Much can be learned from other people if one would adopt a sympathetic standpoint during a reading session. Are you reading my posts in order to understand what I think, or are you reading my posts looking for things on which to disagree?

The latter.

One more thing, on my side of the world, over explaining something is tantamount to an insult. My abbreviated explanations are predicated on my respect for you, assuming that you already have a firm grasp on the material. If I were to assume that you didn't have a grasp of the basics, that would be presumptuous and arrogant of me and highly insulting. Do you want me to assume that you don't have a grasp of the basics?

We're talking about things beyond the basics here. This particular discussion isn't worth my time anymore. I can't make sense of what you're trying to say and there isn't much I can do about it because we think very differently.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you are speaking about Peter's comment in 2 Peter 3, he is speaking about the Day of the Lord, which begins just before the Second Advent and ends a thousand years later. Peter's comment applies to the end of the Millennial Period, when, as John says the first earth passes away.

And how does Satan's little season fit into your view then? You have the heavens and earth being burned up at the end of the thousand years. Are you forgetting that Satan's little season follows the thousand years?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

As I demonstrated from Revelation 19, Jesus doesn't come with fire.

How does Revelation 19 show that? The physical destruction that accompanies His return is described figuratively there. Or do you think He will be slaying people with a literal sword coming out of His mouth?

 

[Truth7t7]

This is a rude accusation, made from ignoring the plainly stated description of the glorious Return in Revelation 19:11-21

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 describes the forthcoming Day of the Lords fiery wrath, Proved by how at that time, He is only revealed to His own faithful Christian peoples. As seen in Revelation 14:1.

No rude accusation whatsoever, your claims are also "False"

Jesus returns in fire as seen below, there is no "Secret Revealing" of Jesus Christ as you claim, his return will be as bright as lightning shining from the east-west, in flaming fire

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

 

[Keraz]

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV

Have the guts and moral courage to write out 1 Thess 1:10 Also Revelation 14:1
They both prove the Jesus will only be revealed to His people, at the time when He destroys His enemies by fire. The Sixth Seal event.

 

[Truth7t7]

Have the guts and moral courage to write out 1 Thess 1:10 Also Revelation 14:1
They both prove the Jesus will only be revealed to His people, at the time when He destroys His enemies by fire. The Sixth Seal event.

I Disagree with your claims, Jesus has one future coming, and it will be visible and global, in flaming fire as scripture teaches below

Jesus returns in fire and final judgment, dissolving this earth by fire (The End)

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Keraz]

How does Revelation 19 show that? The physical destruction that accompanies His return is described figuratively there. Or do you think He will be slaying people with a literal sword coming out of His mouth?

Jesus does NOT use fire to kill the armies of the AC. Their corpses are food for the carrion eaters.

The idea of the End happening at the glorious Return of Jesus, is preterist error, that violates chapter 20 of Revelation.

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus does NOT use fire to kill the armies of the AC. Their corpses are food for the carrion eaters.

The idea of the End happening at the glorious Return of Jesus, is preterist error, that violates chapter 20 of Revelation.

Wrong, as post #3446 clearly describes above, this earth will be dissolved by the Lord's fire in judgement at his return (The End)

 

[Keraz]

Your living in "Denial" of biblical truth, Jesus "Appears" "Reveals" at the Second Advent with "Fire"

Obviously you haven't got the guts and moral courage to post scriptures that prove you wrong.

Why deny the Millennium? It is God's reward to Jesus. Psalms 2:6-9

 

[Timtofly]

I find that rich coming from a Premil, when Premils disagree on everything. What points are Amils (plural) disagreeing on here?

The huge disagreement on what is literal and what is not. Is there any other type of disagreement?

 

[Timtofly]

There is one future resurrection of all, this takes place on the last day at the second coming of Jesus Christ

Lazarus and Tabitha were raised from the dead, your claims are false and chaos

You are the one claiming a difference between raised and resurrected.

 

[Truth7t7]

Why deny the Millennium? It is God's reward to Jesus. Psalms 2:6-9

A Fictional Millennium On This Earth, As Jesus Sits On A Throne, Performing The Services Of Funeral Director, To Humans Dying Around Him

"A Gift From God"?

Now That's Laughable!

 

[CadyandZoe]

The day of the Lord is like a thief, "Quickly"

Your claim this day is 1,000 years long is laughable

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Thieves don't come quickly they come unexpectedly, which is why we need to be alert at all times.

As for the nature of that "day" we only need to reflect on the significance of that time, when God himself begins to vindicate his holy name. The other nations argue that Yahweh is not able to train up a righteous nation, protect his people from their enemies, or keep his people from calamity. God intends to restore his reputation by bringing the Hebrew people back to the land, protect them from their enemies, bless them materially and protect them from natural disaster. Apparently, in his view, this will take at least a thousand years.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Your claim is "False"!

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Okay, I see your point. But one needs to realize that Paul has summarized a much larger picture. The summary is a bit misleading if one is not aware of the bigger picture.

If I should say, "I looked out the window and saw a boat floating up the street," this might seem a bit strange. But what if I said, "We are in the middle of a hurricane, and when I looked out the window, I saw a boat floating up the street." The larger context informs my earlier sentence.

Jesus will be revealed from heaven. And he will be accompanied by angels. And some of those "angels" are the fire itself. And the fire will incinerate God's enemies. All of that is true.

Now, Paul's statements are informed by the bigger picture, which is found in the prophets. One of those prophets is Malachi, where the Lord says that he will incinerate the arrogantly evil among those living in Israel, and those who fear the Lord will walk on their ashes. Malachi 4.

From this passage we understand that the Second Advent is not coming with a total destruction of the earth. Rather, the fires that accompany the Lord's return are regional fires, located in the land of Palestine, and according to the prophets, God sends the fires in order to purify the land from wickedness.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You should be listening to Jesus like John was.


Jesus said in Matt 24,
35 Heaven and earth [as now known] will pass away, but My words will not pass away.
36 “But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son [in His humanity], but the Father alone. 37 For the coming of the Son of Man (the Messiah) will be just like the days of Noah.

Yes, okay. So let's think about Noah's flood and how the coming of the Son of man will be similar. In my view, the similarity is focused on the coming of the flood. What was taking place just prior to the flood event?

Matthew 24:37-39

37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.​

What was it like during that time? Life was going along normally just as it always does. The time just prior to the flood saw normal human activities such as: eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage. In other words, good food; good life. The flood took everyone by surprise and they did not understand what was happening until the flood took place.

Nonetheless, it wasn't as if they didn't have warning. Peter tells us that Noah was a preacher of righteousness. And by this we understand that Noah tried to warn people about the coming judgment but apparently they didn't listen. Life was too good and things were moving along as they always did for thousands of years.

The coming of the son of man will be like that. Just as it was back then, people today are eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage. People today won't understand what is happening until the son of man comes. And just as it was back then, today we have preachers of righteousness trying to warn people of the impending judgment. And just as it was back then, God will provide a way for the righteous to escape what is coming.

In my view, the rapture of the church is analogous to Noah's ark.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, he shows it to be totally destructive and climactic.

That is your interpretation, but in my view Peter wasn't giving a complete teaching on the Day of the Lord. Peter is giving a brief summary of that period in order to make a point about the significance of that time period.

 

[CadyandZoe]

And how does Satan's little season fit into your view then? You have the heavens and earth being burned up at the end of the thousand years. Are you forgetting that Satan's little season follows the thousand years?

Yes, I forgot about Satan's little season.

What does John say about the little season?

1. The little season comes after the end of the Millennial period.
2. Satan is released from his prison.
3. Satan deceives the nations to gather them together for war.
4. They come up on the broad plain of the earth and surround the camp of the saints and the beloved city.
5. Fire comes down from heaven to devour them.
6. The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire.

What do we learn? We have three parties listed in this passage: 1)Satan, 2)the Nations, 3)the saints. From this we understand that at the end of the millennial period, the saints are gathered together in one location on the earth. The nations are not from the same region because they come from "the four corners of the earth." These are Gentile nations as represented symbolically by sand of the seashore. These armies come against the camp of the saints, located in the beloved city. From this we understand that during the time of Satan's little season, all the saints from around the world, wherever they formerly lived, are all located in one city.

(BTW, the location is NOT an idealized place such as "spiritual Jerusalem." The location of the beloved city is an actual, physical place such that armies can be gathered to fight at that location.)

What is missing from this list? The Second Advent.
The Second Advent took place a thousand years earlier, which is why all the saints are depicted as being located in one spot.

 

[WPM]

That is your interpretation, but in my view Peter wasn't giving a complete teaching on the Day of the Lord. Peter is giving a brief summary of that period in order to make a point about the significance of that time period.

The time period mentioned (a thousand years) relates to a long period of assumed delay before the coming of Christ, not some supposed time period after it. After showing us the destruction of this earth, the works that are in it, the heavens, the elements when Jesus comes, and after describing the longsuffering of God in the days of Noah before the destruction of all the wicked, Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15).

· Unquestionably, the focus of 2 Peter 3 is directed to the end-time-cynics who question God.
· These fools question God keeping His “promise.” What promise? It is “the promise of His coming.”
· The scorn and derision of these foolish last days scoffers and mockers are directed specifically towards the reality and occurrence of Christ’s future Advent in glory.
· It is not in any way concentrated upon a supposed group of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years later. If this is supposed to be a collection of ‘millennial scoffers’ 1,000 years after the second coming, why would they be saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation”? Such a notion is a complete absurdity as Christ’s coming (or parousia) is long past.
· This text shows us that today is the only day of salvation. Peter responds to the mockers scoffing at the apparent delay in Christ's return: “the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation” (2 Peter 3:15). Romans 2:4 reaffirms that salvation is limited to this side of the second coming.
· The actual wrath described by the Holy Spirit comes suddenly and unexpectedly upon these foolish last days scoffers and mockers. There is no escape. They are the recipients of total destruction.
· We also see in this reading that “the day of the Lord will arrive (or heko) as a thief in the night; in the which (en heé)” or literally translated “in which” (the word “the” being absent from the original). The detail described arrives with Jesus.
· What happens to creation when Jesus arrives? 1. The heavens shall pass away / perish with a great noise. 2. The elements shall be ‘loosed by being set on fire’, 3. The earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. 4. The works that are within the earth shall be ‘burned up utterly / consumed wholly. The Premillennialist claims to be a literalist, so there is no spiritualization that can explain this away. It is water-tight.
· The description of the destruction could not be more comprehensive. It is undoubtedly the end. It involves wholesale and unavoidable annihilation for the wicked. It embraces the full gamut of fallen creation.
· What is this replaced with? A future millennium filled with sin and sinners, deception and being deceived, crying and dying? No. The Holy Spirit tells us that it the “new heavens and a new earth” that follows Christ’s return.
· The arrival of the “new heavens and a new earth” are here significantly connected to “his promise.”
· The Holy Spirit then assures the last days elect that their lot is not wrath or destruction. They experience the new heavens and new earth at His appearing.

 

[CadyandZoe]

How does Revelation 19 show that? The physical destruction that accompanies His return is described figuratively there. Or do you think He will be slaying people with a literal sword coming out of His mouth?

The metaphor of a sword coming out of Jesus' mouth is meant to convey the idea that those who wield the sword are under Jesus' command. The purpose of the war is to defeat the enemies who come against him because, as John says, he will rule them with a rod of iron.

Now, the purpose of the war is to take dominion over the Earth and the people who live on the earth at that time. That is, the plan is to subjugate the people not to destroy them.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The time period mentioned (a thousand years) relates to a long period of assumed delay before the coming of Christ, not some supposed time period after it.

So you are Postmillennial now? Hmm