22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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dad

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We all believe that. It's after Satan's little season, too, though.
No we do not all believe that. Several posters here have waved away the 1000 years as some sort of pretend unreal spiritualized joke. They also do not believe Jesus rules then on earth with His saints. They claim the new earth happens the day Jesus returns.
How can Matthew 24:35-39 and 2 Peter 3:5-7 not be when Jesus returns? Did you read those passages?

Heaven and earth does not pass away till, as we are told, after the 1000 years. Why would you cite Mat 24 as if it suggested anything different?
Where is this taught in scripture in terms of describing a time period that occurs after the return of Christ?
If you don't know by now you probably have disbelieved the texts and inserted your own preferred fantasies in there instead.
Can you show me where Jesus Himself made this distinction? Or where this distinction is made anywhere in scripture in terms of who are with Jesus and who are against Him?
As much as you would like to judge the world here and burn all people for not meeting your concept of who God has mercy on, it is not up to you. I am not terribly interested in your opinion on it either.
Again, Jesus said "Whoever is not with me is against me" (Matt 12:30). So, He sees all people as being in two groups with one group being those who are with Him and the other being those who are against Him. Now, it's not up to us to decide who is in which group, but it's also not appropriate for us to create a third group when Jesus Himself didn't do that.
There are people on earth in the nations being ruled by believers. You thought all were believers? Then who rebels at the end of the 1000 years?
Ah, so you believe in a pre-trib rapture then? For some reason I thought you were post-trib. Can you tell me when you believe the following verse will occur:

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
A few verses before the context is given
2 Thessalonians 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Jesus takes over the world to rule and destroys all the wicked. That does not mean destroys all people on the planet. Fire is involved there, as it was in Sodom. Fire will again be even more involved at the end of the 1000 years when He makes the new earth.
You're missing the context of Him "ruling" the nations. Psalm 2:9 equates it with breaking them while comparing it to breaking a vase into pieces.
No, first He breaks them before He rules them! He destroys the wicked armies and leaders etc. In no way does this mean He does not rule, or that rule 'really' means clobber.

Revelation 19:15-18 describes Him "ruling" the nations alongside descriptions of Him destroying them. Why do you (seemingly) not take that into consideration?
Did you think the people in the world today (or then) would willingly surrender and love God?
This makes it even more clear that you believe in a pre-trib rapture. But, that's really a separate issue from the Amillennialism vs. Premillennialism debate that we're having in this thread.
Yet when verses regarding the Rapture are misused on another topic, one should place them in proper context.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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If you believe that Israel has ceased for a future millennium (i.e., Amil),
I don't believe in a future millennium at all. You understand that, right?

then a lot of ppl will assume that Israel is replaced in some shape or form, as regards the scheme of interpretation being embraced.
Replaced how? What does that even mean? How does bringing Jew and Gentile believers together as one result in anyone being replaced?
 

farouk

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I don't believe in a future millennium at all. You understand that, right?

Replaced how? What does that even mean? How does bringing Jew and Gentile believers together as one result in anyone being replaced?
Dispensationalsim exactly emphasizes a future for Israel on earth.

Which means if there is no future millennium, there is no future for Israel in a future millennium; it's now the church that supposedly inherits all the promises.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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No we do not all believe that. Several posters here have waved away the 1000 years as some sort of pretend unreal spiritualized joke. They also do not believe Jesus rules then on earth with His saints. They claim the new earth happens the day Jesus returns.
You are an immature child who needs to grow up. Let me remind you of what I had said WHICH YOU AGREED WITH.

I had said: I'm not saying that the earth will be completely annihilated. It will be renewed, resulting in the eternal new earth which is where we will dwell for eternity with immortal bodies.

And then you said yes, this will happen after the thousand years. And I said we all believe that is true. Which is correct. While Amils don't see the 1000 years as being a literal 1000 years, we do see it as an actual period of time with a beginning (at Christ's resurrection) and ending (a little season before Christ's return). So, what I was saying is that we all believe that we will dwell on the eternal new earth with immortal bodies after the thousand years. Whether the thousand years is literal or not is besides the point I was making. Do you understand what I'm saying now?

Heaven and earth does not pass away till, as we are told, after the 1000 years.
Amils believe that as well. You are very ignorant about what Amils believe, apparently.

Why would you cite Mat 24 as if it suggested anything different?
Because Matthew 24:34-39 is talking about the time when Christ returns. That is when heaven and earth will pass away which lines up with what Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:10-13. In 2 Peter 3:13 Peter indicated that it is in accordance with the promise of His second coming that we look forward to the new heavens and new earth. That means the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in at His second coming.

If you don't know by now you probably have disbelieved the texts and inserted your own preferred fantasies in there instead.
Immature child-speak from you once again. You serve no purpose but to make yourself look like a complete fool by saying things like this.

As much as you would like to judge the world here and burn all people for not meeting your concept of who God has mercy on, it is not up to you. I am not terribly interested in your opinion on it either.
Why are you talking to me then?

There are people on earth in the nations being ruled by believers. You thought all were believers? Then who rebels at the end of the 1000 years?
A few verses before the context is given
2 Thessalonians 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Jesus takes over the world to rule and destroys all the wicked. That does not mean destroys all people on the planet. Fire is involved there, as it was in Sodom. Fire will again be even more involved at the end of the 1000 years when He makes the new earth.
No, first He breaks them before He rules them! He destroys the wicked armies and leaders etc. In no way does this mean He does not rule, or that rule 'really' means clobber.
This is complete gibberish and incoherent nonsense. Believers will all have immortal bodies at that point. Unbelievers are all destroyed. That is what 2 Thess 1:7-10 indicates. That doesn't leave any mortals to populate the earth at that point when Christ returns. I asked you about 2 Thess 1:10 to see if you could recognize that it's talking about what will happen at the rapture there. When else will Jesus "come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe"?

Did you think the people in the world today (or then) would willingly surrender and love God?
Yet when verses regarding the Rapture are misused on another topic, one should place them in proper context.
Can you possibly be more vague? I have no idea of what point you are trying to make here as it relates to the discussion we've been having.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Dispensationalsim exactly emphasizes a future for Israel on earth.

Which means if there is no future millennium, there is no future for Israel in a future millennium; it's now the church that supposedly inherits all the promises.
Which promises are you referring to exactly? Are you sure you properly understand who those promises were for? Have you ever read Galatians 3:16-29?
 
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dad

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I had said: I'm not saying that the earth will be completely annihilated. It will be renewed, resulting in the eternal new earth which is where we will dwell for eternity with immortal bodies.
At the end of 1000 years. Not before. Do you even believe in a thousand year reign of Jesus with His saints?
And then you said yes, this will happen after the thousand years. And I said we all believe that is true. Which is correct.
No it is false. People I debate here do not believe that at all.

While Amils don't see the 1000 years as being a literal 1000 years,
That means they do not believe it period as far as I am concerned.
we do see it as an actual period of time with a beginning (at Christ's resurrection) and ending (a little season before Christ's return).
Totally wrong
The reign and 1000 years comes after He comes!
So, what I was saying is that we all believe that we will dwell on the eternal new earth with immortal bodies after the thousand years.
If you do not actually believe in the thousand years that says nothing.
Whether the thousand years is literal or not is besides the point I was making.
No. As far as I am concerned it is unbelief to not believe in the plain Scriptures about the rule of Jesus after He returns. When it is believe it or not, NOT believing is not beside the point!

Amils believe that as well. You are very ignorant about what Amils believe, apparently.
It is what they do not believe that is the issue here.
Because Matthew 24:34-39 is talking about the time when Christ returns.

No. The generation that starts to see the signs of the very end will not pass until He returns.
That is when heaven and earth will pass away
No. It is when Jesus comes back.

which lines up with what Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:10-13. In 2 Peter 3:13 Peter indicated that it is in accordance with the promise of His second coming that we look forward to the new heavens and new earth. That means the new heavens and new earth will be ushered in at His second coming.
We do, of course. Just exactly when the bible says it will come and that is NOT the day Jesus returns.

Believers will all have immortal bodies at that point. Unbelievers are all destroyed.
Many believers get saved in that 1000 years you don't believe in apparently. Many others get saved in the tribulation that many here claim happened thousands of years ago! So the Raptured church in heaven has new bodies in the tribulation period that many here do not believe in. How about those remnant of Jews (all Israel) that are saved in the end? Do they get new bodies at the time they are saved there?
That is what 2 Thess 1:7-10 indicates. That doesn't leave any mortals to populate the earth at that point when Christ returns.

Except the verses you offer do not seem to be about no one left alive in nations at all. Try to focus.
I asked you about 2 Thess 1:10 to see if you could recognize that it's talking about what will happen at the rapture there.

No. By the time Jesus returns we return with Him. That is not about the Rapture.

He takes over the world in flaming fury and destroys all enemies when He returns. You seem to be of the opinion that every child and peasant and handicapped person and every person on earth at that time are fierce enemies who hate and fight God. Apparently not. I do not know such a monster god.
The God I read about is goint to slay the wicked, and give the nations plenty of chance to accept Him in perfect peace and plenty.
When else will Jesus "come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe"?
That depends on what that means. What do you think being glorified in His saints means? What do you think admired by believers means? Why would we assume that means killing all babies and children and handicapped and poor uninformed peasant on earth?? You would admire that?
 

Randy Kluth

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Please read the passage again.

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Where did Jesus say anything about any "who are not Christian and thus not found worthy" being allowed to take part in the age to come?

Where does Jesus say that *all* people in the present age will be either judged or glorified at the 2nd Coming? Nowhere!

And for that reason I have to conclude that Jesus was only speaking about those who will be judged at the 2nd Coming. Those who are not judged then, and who are not prepared to be glorified, must continue on as mortals in the Millennial era. They won't just disappear.
 

Truth7t7

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Where does Jesus say that *all* people in the present age will be either judged or glorified at the 2nd Coming? Nowhere!

And for that reason I have to conclude that Jesus was only speaking about those who will be judged at the 2nd Coming. Those who are not judged then, and who are not prepared to be glorified, must continue on as mortals in the Millennial era. They won't just disappear.
Your claim is 100% false, no mortal human body escapes the Lord's fire in "Judgement" at his appearing/revealing (The End)

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)


2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance
on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 
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Truth7t7

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No we do not all believe that. Several posters here have waved away the 1000 years as some sort of pretend unreal spiritualized joke. They also do not believe Jesus rules then on earth with His saints. They claim the new earth happens the day Jesus returns.


Heaven and earth does not pass away till, as we are told, after the 1000 years. Why would you cite Mat 24 as if it suggested anything different?
If you don't know by now you probably have disbelieved the texts and inserted your own preferred fantasies in there instead.

As much as you would like to judge the world here and burn all people for not meeting your concept of who God has mercy on, it is not up to you. I am not terribly interested in your opinion on it either.
There are people on earth in the nations being ruled by believers. You thought all were believers? Then who rebels at the end of the 1000 years?
A few verses before the context is given
2 Thessalonians 1:8

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Jesus takes over the world to rule and destroys all the wicked. That does not mean destroys all people on the planet. Fire is involved there, as it was in Sodom. Fire will again be even more involved at the end of the 1000 years when He makes the new earth.
No, first He breaks them before He rules them! He destroys the wicked armies and leaders etc. In no way does this mean He does not rule, or that rule 'really' means clobber.

Did you think the people in the world today (or then) would willingly surrender and love God?
Yet when verses regarding the Rapture are misused on another topic, one should place them in proper context.
Jesus warned his followers against your teaching that he will be on this earth in a Millennium, "Reader Beware"!

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
 

dad

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Jesus warned his followers against your teaching that he will be on this earth in a Millennium, "Reader Beware"!

When He warned there would be false Christs that was NOT after He returned.
Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

This earth is where He is returning to. Where did you think He would go after this?

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

So what? No believer will believe that.
 

Randy Kluth

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Your claim is 100% false, no mortal human body escapes the Lord's fire in "Judgement" at his appearing/revealing (The End)


2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

The new universe begins at the end of the Millennium. The atomization of the earth and heaven at the 2nd Coming takes place across the earth in local events. That is, every place across the earth a bomb goes off, the elements dissolve. This is God's universal judgment of Antichrist, along with his followers across the earth. It is not the annihilation of the earth--something that *will never happen,* according to the Bible.

The complete departure of the old mortal experience transpires at the end of the Millennium, as I said, which is a thousand years after Christ's 2nd Coming. You may say I'm wrong, but that's what the Bible teaches.
 

Truth7t7

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The new universe begins at the end of the Millennium. The atomization of the earth and heaven at the 2nd Coming takes place across the earth in local events. That is, every place across the earth a bomb goes off, the elements dissolve. This is God's universal judgment of Antichrist, along with his followers across the earth. It is not the annihilation of the earth--something that *will never happen,* according to the Bible.

The complete departure of the old mortal experience transpires at the end of the Millennium, as I said, which is a thousand years after Christ's 2nd Coming. You may say I'm wrong, but that's what the Bible teaches.
Your teaching above is a fairy tale Randy, in denial of the very scripture presented to you in post #2448 above

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement, dissolving this earth "Gone" (The End)

There won't be a Zionist Millennial Kingdom on this earth as you believe and teach, "it's a fairy tale", just like Dorthy wandering down the yellow brick road to the Kingdom of Oz
 
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Timtofly

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Do you think the following describes eternity:

Revelation 21:Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.

Compare to:

Isaiah 65:17 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy. 19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more.

These passages are very clearly speaking of the same thing. Isaiah 65:20-25 should be interpreted in light of what it says in the preceding verses of 17-19. If you insist on taking verse 20 literally and think it's talking about death occurring at that time, then what do you do with verse 19 which talks about no more weeping and crying (just like Rev 21:4)? Do you think no one will mourn the deaths of loved ones during that time? That obviously doesn't make any sense. So, it's clear that interpreting verse 20 to be saying death will occur at that time contradicts what is said in verse 19. So, you should adjust your understanding of verse 20 accordingly while also realizing that Isaiah 65:17-25 is clearly a description of the new heavens and new earth. So, it's important to interpret it in such a way that doesn't contradict Revelation 21:1-7.
"Eternity" and "eternal state" are misnomers.

Eternity is outside of creation and there is no time outside of creation. Time is built into creation itself. This earth will have 8,000 years, yet it was stated as being forever.

The NHNE may have a totally different time system and expanded. But only the future will tell if that is the last creation or not.

Some think there was a creation before this creation, yet Genesis 1:1 starts from nothing. If no one remembers a former creation, what is the point of saying we will know how many creations we have existed in?

One would think that we as created beings will always be bound to a creation with time built into that creation. So calling the future eternal is more a guess than one claiming another 1,000 years, which at least is put in words, even though your interpretation is at odds with the interpretation of other humans.

How many unbelievers on the earth survived the flood in Noah's day? None, right? And how many did Jesus say will survive His second coming? The same number who survived the flood in Noah's day. None.

Noah was the only believer. The other 7 survivors were not necessarily believers, just because Noah was, nor because they got on the ark.

There were sons of God still around in the heavenly council. Were they raptured out earlier, before things got too out of hand? Noah was a son of Adam, not a son of God. At least Noah is still waiting with the rest of the church for the Second Coming. Shem was more than likely a believer, but to say those on the ark were believers because they got on the ark, does not make sense. They were still alive, but that is about all. They each still had to decide to follow God and be obedient as individuals.
 
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Timtofly

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Can you please not use the word in relation to Christians? It does not come across well. I don't know of anyone else who does that. A vast majority of people use the word in relation to non-Christians.
Actually the first century church was understood as a cult of Judaism, and cult refers to a religious preference.

Cult: a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.
"the cult of St. Olaf"
  • a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister.
Unbelievers have no religion to speak of. Perhaps at one point humans were religious, even non-believers, because of paganism.

Humanism is the current system of thought that attempts to divorce humans from a religion or spiritual connotation.

At what point does Amil stop being a cult? As they were not common in the first few centuries, and especially if the church was considered a cult as it was strange to the pagan Romans up until it was forced upon them as a state religion by Constantine.

How is "cult" more offensive than "nonsense"? Christians are about the only religious group that matters. Compared to other major religions it is a cult, although Islam is younger than Christianity.

The redeemed could still be considered a cult within Christianity as a religion. Religion does not define a believer. Being born from above does.
 

WPM

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"Eternity" and "eternal state" are misnomers.

Eternity is outside of creation and there is no time outside of creation. Time is built into creation itself. This earth will have 8,000 years, yet it was stated as being forever.

The NHNE may have a totally different time system and expanded. But only the future will tell if that is the last creation or not.

Some think there was a creation before this creation, yet Genesis 1:1 starts from nothing. If no one remembers a former creation, what is the point of saying we will know how many creations we have existed in?

One would think that we as created beings will always be bound to a creation with time built into that creation. So calling the future eternal is more a guess than one claiming another 1,000 years, which at least is put in words, even though your interpretation is at odds with the interpretation of other humans.



Noah was the only believer. The other 7 survivors were not necessarily believers, just because Noah was, nor because they got on the ark.

There were sons of God still around in the heavenly council. Were they raptured out earlier, before things got too out of hand? Noah was a son of Adam, not a son of God. At least Noah is still waiting with the rest of the church for the Second Coming. Shem was more than likely a believer, but to say those on the ark were believers because they got on the ark, does not make sense. They were still alive, but that is about all. They each still had to decide to follow God and be obedient as individuals.

The NHNE does have a time system.
 

WPM

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Your claim is 100% false, no mortal human body escapes the Lord's fire in "Judgement" at his appearing/revealing (The End)

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)


2 Peter 3:10-13KJV
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.


2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance
on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV
5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Exactly! The Premiller has no answer to these strong climactic passages.
 
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rockytopva

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If I had to pick an end time date I would go, word by word, with the scientist, Isaac Newton...

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half. " - Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However… Isaac Newton notes

"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

I believe, then, the 2060 prophecy as closest, noting room for error as in Newton's quote. But... My goodness... 2060 is a lot closer than it was when Isaac Newton uttered these words 300 years ago!
 

Timtofly

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If I had to pick an end time date I would go, word by word, with the scientist, Isaac Newton...

"And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half. " - Daniel 12:7

From a folio cataloged as Yahuda MS 7.3g, f. 13v:

"So then the time times & half a time are 42 months or 1260 days or three years & an half, reckoning twelve months to a year & 30 days to a month as was done in the Calendar of the primitive year. And the days of short lived Beasts being put for the years of lived kingdoms, the period of 1260 days, if dated from the complete conquest of the three kings A.C. 800, will end A.C. 2060." - Isaac Newton

As Charlemagne was crowned king on December 25, 800 by Pope Leo the III so the day of Christ's coming will be on Christmas Day, 2060. If the rapture of the saints (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) occurs seven years before the time of Christ’s coming the date of the rapture 12.25 2053. However… Isaac Newton notes

"It may end later, but I see no reason for its ending sooner. This I mention not to assert when the time of the end shall be, but to put a stop to the rash conjectures of fancifull men who are frequently predicting the time of the end, & by doing so bring the sacred prophesies into discredit as often as their predictions fail. Christ comes as a thief in the night, & it is not for us to know the times & seasons which God hath put into his own breast." - Isaac Newton

I believe, then, the 2060 prophecy as closest, noting room for error as in Newton's quote. But... My goodness... 2060 is a lot closer than it was when Isaac Newton uttered these words 300 years ago!
The times, equal to 2,000 years, cannot go past 2030. The Cross is God's point of time, not humans doing human things. The 490 years of Daniel's 70 weeks was all wrapped up, by the Cross. The only part left was Jesus as King over Israel. Paul explained that as being put off, until the fulness of the Gentiles is brought in. Daniel lived over 500 years prior to the Cross. Here are the verses again:


"But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river. And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished."



"And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand."



"And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."



Three different and separate issues here. The times, time, and half of time is not the same time keeping as the latter "days". The abomination and removal of the sacrifice was Hanukkah, the event of Antiochus Epiphanes. That had to happen even before the first coming when Jesus would bring an end to the OT part of God's plan. There would still be the 10 toes of the very first vision in Daniel 2. Jesus came in the midst of the Roman Empire, yet all the empires including the Greek golden age would be wrapped up including the "days" mentioned in these verses from Daniel 12. That is why Jesus said that people reading the Olivet Discourse should know the difference between the AoD of Antiochus Epiphanes, and the one He addressed in Matthew 24. Yet many want to conflate the 1290 days and the 1335 days with a future event, when they were already fulfilled within the 69 weeks of Daniel 9. Some even claiming that Daniel would have to wait until the GWT to be judged. Daniel was removed from Abraham's bosom at the Cross with all of the OT redeemed.

The Cross was the last days of that OT dispensation. Whenever the last days were brought up between Jesus and those asking Him questions prior to the Cross, that was their last days. Jesus was the anointed one that ushered in the last day judgment and resurrection wrapped up in the Cross itself. Yes some lived post the Cross, and entered into the NT church as firstfruits. Lazarus was the representative of those in the OT and last days that would indeed see both Abraham's bosom and the blessed physical resurrection into Paradise. Moses was correct that, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

That reality was a done deal for Daniel after only half a time, 500 years.

Now we are sitting at 1992 years after the Cross. We have missed the time. We are looking at the times as the fulness for the Gentiles. The 1,000 years in Revelation 20 is looking more real as the final time mentioned in the above Daniel 12 passage. We have yet another dispensation that will be wrapped up soon, or the times, time, and half a time since Daniel viewed that scene, will be meaningless.

We all will be post times as in 3,000 years until the end instead of 2,000 years as an end. But Daniel did not have to wait 3500 years for there to be an end. The Cross already fulfilled one aspect of our understanding of what Daniel was allowed to see and write down.

No one can set a date on the Second Coming. But this is one of the points in history that will make or break what Daniel 12 was literally referring to. Is there a margin of error to account for all the different time frames since no one can agree on even the date of the Cross, nor the birth of Jesus? I don't think any one could have set the date of Jesus' birth and the Cross using Daniel's 69 weeks formula in the same way as setting the date for the Second Coming. Only 2 people seem to have been cognizant of the anointed one, Simeon and Annah. No Essenenes sitting around debating when the first coming would happen. Only John the Baptist in the spirit of Elijah proclaiming Jesus would show up any day now. The rest of Israel loosing hope, and then many rejecting Jesus as Messiah vehemently.

Attempting to claim the times, time, and half a time as 1260 years cannot fit Daniel 12. It was from Daniel's perspective not the perspective of those living in 800AD. What is earth time to God? According to the Psalmist, Peter, and then John in Revelation 20, it would be 1,000 years. Half a time is 500 years, and multiple time would be several 1,000 year periods.

Yes we could be in the fulness of the Gentiles for 2,000 and even up to 10,000 years. But then Exodus 20 comes into the prophetic perspective. God told us that humans only had to work 6 days in light of the Sabbath day of the Lord in Genesis 2. So only 6 times would humanity be subject to sin. 4 times were already accomplished at the time of the Cross. Probably to the very day, Adam disobeyed God, Jesus obeyed God on the Cross exactly 4 Days/times we call 4,000 years. So do we hold God accountable to that promise made in the 4th Commandment? Jesus was obedient bringing the 4th Day to a close. Jesus will be obedient bringing the 6th Day to a close ending both Daniel's 70 weeks and Adam's 6 Days.
 
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