22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[farouk]

Who is saying that the church and Israel (assuming you mean the nation of Israel) are the same? No one. What some of us claim is that the church is spiritual Israel which is distinct from the nation of Israel.

1 Corinthians 10.32 comes to mind.

 

[dad]

I'm not saying that the earth will be completely annihilated. It will be renewed, resulting in the eternal new earth which is where we will dwell for eternity with immortal bodies.

That is correct, after the 1000 years.

Based on Peter and Jesus both comparing the future fiery event to what happened in the flood (2 Peter 3:5-7, Matthew 24:35-39), it will affect the entire earth.

That is not when Jesus returns but after the millennium.

So, no unbelievers can survive that. Believers, meanwhile, will all have immortal bodies. So, who would that leave for Satan to "do his thing with" at that point? No one. You're not understanding that Revelation 20:9 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 are speaking of the same event.

The people in the millennium have physical bodies like they did before the flood. They also live many many centuries. They also have babies. Lots of babies. There will be no more abortions or such murdering wickedness. There will be a world of people then.

You don't see all unbelievers as being His enemies? Jesus Himself said "He who is not with me is against me" (Matt 12:30). Keep in mind I'm not saying everyone on earth includes believers. We will be "in the air" with Jesus at that point. Unbelievers will still be on the earth and Jesus will destroy them. That is what scripture teaches.

I see say, some poor person in Japan that never really heard the gospel differently than I would see people going out to fight Jesus (as if they had any chance) and who hate God.

Okay, so how does that leave any mortal people to populate the earth at that time then, keeping in mind that believers will all have immortal bodies at that point?

That is a bit of a mystery. Lots of people guess. There are the saved Jews of course. They will finally have the promised land. I personally assume that the very wicked that hate God and accepted Satan and fought God and killed His people will be wiped out. I can easily see that even though nations lose a lot of their people who are wicked, there will still be nations. Even if the population in many cases for some nations was not that large babies will be coming all the time! So, I don't know, but that is my guess.

I agree. So, what exactly is your problem with what I believe then that caused you to think that I believe Jesus is a monster?

Some suggested (and I assume you are one of them) that when Jesus returns fire comes down and we then have the new earth. The bible says He rules the nations, so if someone imagines all people were killed I find that monstrous.

After the rapture occurs, there will be no believers left on the earth.

There will still be churches and denominations. There will be converts from that as well as converts from people all over the world, even Israel. There will be miracles from preachers like the 144,000 and the 2 witnesses. There will even be angels preaching! There also will be demons all over, as they have come up from the pit and down from the heavens. So many people will see that they better get right with God. There will also be all those events and signs of the tribulation period so long foretold that many will realize what is going on and want to be saved.

 

[dad]

I agree with that, but you're taking it too far. You're acting like I said something to indicate that I reject Jesus or something.

You were implying that I'm part of a cult because of what I believe which would mean that I'm not a believer. Which would mean that I'm heading for hell. That is not acceptable for you to judge me like that and it puts you in danger of being judged the same way on the day of judgment. Do you understand what I'm telling you?

A cult means a closed group as I tend to use the word. Like a cult that only buys a name brand. Or a cult that follows a certain movie star or etc. So if a section of Christians share beliefs that render the bible dead and void in large measure I can call it a cult. We are not talking about salvation here.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 Corinthians 10.32 comes to mind.

What do you mean? Can you please try to be more specific about what point you're intending to make?

 

[farouk]

What do you mean? Can you please try to be more specific about what point you're intending to make?

Jews and the church of God are definitely distinct, as per 1 Cor. 10.32.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is correct, after the 1000 years.

We all believe that. It's after Satan's little season, too, though.

That is not when Jesus returns but after the millennium.

How can Matthew 24:35-39 and 2 Peter 3:5-7 not be when Jesus returns? Did you read those passages?

The people in the millennium have physical bodies like they did before the flood. They also live many many centuries. They also have babies. Lots of babies. There will be no more abortions or such murdering wickedness. There will be a world of people then.

Where is this taught in scripture in terms of describing a time period that occurs after the return of Christ?

I see say, some poor person in Japan that never really heard the gospel differently than I would see people going out to fight Jesus (as if they had any chance) and who hate God.

Can you show me where Jesus Himself made this distinction? Or where this distinction is made anywhere in scripture in terms of who are with Jesus and who are against Him? Again, Jesus said "Whoever is not with me is against me" (Matt 12:30). So, He sees all people as being in two groups with one group being those who are with Him and the other being those who are against Him. Now, it's not up to us to decide who is in which group, but it's also not appropriate for us to create a third group when Jesus Himself didn't do that.

That is a bit of a mystery. Lots of people guess. There are the saved Jews of course. They will finally have the promised land. I personally assume that the very wicked that hate God and accepted Satan and fought God and killed His people will be wiped out. I can easily see that even though nations lose a lot of their people who are wicked, there will still be nations. Even if the population in many cases for some nations was not that large babies will be coming all the time! So, I don't know, but that is my guess.

Ah, so you believe in a pre-trib rapture then? For some reason I thought you were post-trib. Can you tell me when you believe the following verse will occur:

2 Thessalonians 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Some suggested (and I assume you are one of them) that when Jesus returns fire comes down and we then have the new earth. The bible says He rules the nations, so if someone imagines all people were killed I find that monstrous.

You're missing the context of Him "ruling" the nations. Psalm 2:9 equates it with breaking them while comparing it to breaking a vase into pieces. Revelation 19:15-18 describes Him "ruling" the nations alongside descriptions of Him destroying them. Why do you (seemingly) not take that into consideration?

There will still be churches and denominations. There will be converts from that as well as converts from people all over the world, even Israel. There will be miracles from preachers like the 144,000 and the 2 witnesses. There will even be angels preaching! There also will be demons all over, as they have come up from the pit and down from the heavens. So many people will see that they better get right with God. There will also be all those events and signs of the tribulation period so long foretold that many will realize what is going on and want to be saved.

This makes it even more clear that you believe in a pre-trib rapture. But, that's really a separate issue from the Amillennialism vs. Premillennialism debate that we're having in this thread.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jews and the church of God are definitely distinct, as per 1 Cor. 10.32.

And who said otherwise?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A cult means a closed group as I tend to use the word. Like a cult that only buys a name brand. Or a cult that follows a certain movie star or etc. So if a section of Christians share beliefs that render the bible dead and void in large measure I can call it a cult. We are not talking about salvation here.

Can you please not use the word in relation to Christians? It does not come across well. I don't know of anyone else who does that. A vast majority of people use the word in relation to non-Christians.

 

[farouk]

And who said otherwise?

A lot of ppl say the church has replaced Israel.

To me it's clear however that even Song of Solomon is a picture of Christ's relationship with Israel rather than with the church.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, I believe that those *Christians* who are found worthy *as Christians* to partake of the resurrection at Jesus' 2nd Coming will not die again in the Age to Come, namely the Millennial Age and on into Eternity. This excludes, in my theology, those in the present age who are not Christian and thus not found worthy to obtain the glorification of the saints. They will enter the Millennial Age as mortals, and may obtain their own glorification at the end of the Millennium, if found worthy.

Please read the passage again.

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Where did Jesus say anything about any "who are not Christian and thus not found worthy" being allowed to take part in the age to come? He didn't. He only said that those who are found worthy will take part in the age to come and He indicated that those who do take part in the age to come "will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die". So, I believe what you're saying is contradicting what He said because you're talking about unworthy mortal people being allowed to take part in the age to come during which they will die. Paul said that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:50). So, the ones who will take part in the age to come are those who "can no longer die" because instead of mortal flesh and blood they will have immortal bodies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A lot of ppl say the church has replaced Israel.

Has anyone in this thread said that? If not, then why bring that up here? I get tired of this replacement theology accusation thrown at us Amils. We don't believe anyone is replaced. Instead, what we believe is that there are two Israels, as Paul referenced in Romans 9:6-8. One is what we call spiritual Israel or true Israel. The other is the earthly nation of Israel. We don't see the church as replacing the earthly nation of Israel, we see the church as being spiritual Israel which consists of those who belong to Christ, including both Jew and Gentile believers. We emphasize that all believers, Jew and Gentile, have been brought together as one by the blood of Christ and we don't claim that anyone has been replaced.

 

[farouk]

Has anyone in this thread said that? If not, then why bring that up here? I get tired of this replacement theology accusation thrown at us Amils. We don't believe anyone is replaced. Instead, what we believe is that there are two Israels, as Paul referenced in Romans 9:6-8. One is what we call spiritual Israel or true Israel. The other is the earthly nation of Israel. We don't see the church as replacing the earthly nation of Israel, we see the church as being spiritual Israel which consists of those who belong to Christ, including both Jew and Gentile believers. We emphasize that all believers, Jew and Gentile, have been brought together as one by the blood of Christ and we don't claim that anyone has been replaced.

Well if the earthly Israel is not ever going to be Israel any more, then 'replacement' by the church is a word that will come to mind to some ppl, however vehemently denied.

 

[covenantee]

Jews and the church of God are definitely distinct, as per 1 Cor. 10.32.

Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ are part of the Church of God.

So 1 Corinthians 10:32 is distinguishing between Jews and Gentiles, who are outside of Christ; and the Church of God, who are those in Christ.

 

[farouk]

Jews and Gentiles who are in Christ are part of the Church of God.

So 1 Corinthians 10:32 is distinguishing between Jews and Gentiles, who are outside of Christ; and the Church of God, who are those in Christ.

So in that sense the church is definitely distinct from Israel..........

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well if the earthly Israel is not ever going to be Israel any more, then 'replacement' by the church is a word that will come to mind to some ppl, however vehemently denied.

What do you mean "if the earthly Israel is not ever going to be Israel any more" and what does the church have to do with that?

 

[farouk]

What do you mean "if the earthly Israel is not ever going to be Israel any more" and what does the church have to do with that?

I thought you referred to yourself as Amil.......

 

[covenantee]

Well if the earthly Israel is not ever going to be Israel any more, then 'replacement' by the church is a word that will come to mind to some ppl, however vehemently denied.

How does God recognize and identify His Israel?

1. DNA
2. Culture
3. Religion
4. Domicile
5. Faithfulness and obedience to Him and His Son

 

[covenantee]

So in that sense the church is definitely distinct from Israel..........

Those who are in Christ are definitely distinct from those who are not in Christ.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I thought you referred to yourself as Amil.......

Yes, and...? Please be more specific about what you're trying to say so that I don't have to guess. I already explained that we don't believe anyone is replaced. Did you see that? If so, what do you think about what I said?

 

[farouk]

Yes, and...? Please be more specific about what you're trying to say so that I don't have to guess. I already explained that we don't believe anyone is replaced. Did you see that? If so, what do you think about what I said?

If you believe that Israel has ceased for a future millennium (i.e., Amil), then a lot of ppl will assume that Israel is replaced in some shape or form, as regards the scheme of interpretation being embraced.