22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[dad]

Your responses are weak. You don't address any of our arguments. You just childishly respond with one liners. You clearly can't be taken seriously. Show me in Psalms 2:9 where it portrays Jesus ruling over people in the way that you're talking about. Good luck.

I do not need to fit all things into a random chapter you toss out. Looking at Psalm 2 though, we do see who He rules over.

Here it is in technicolor.

Psalms 2:2

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord , and against his anointed, saying,
Psalms 2:4

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision

Psalms 2:5

Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure

Psalms 2:8

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

The picture is crystal clear here of God destroying evil kings and taking over dominion of the earth. Nothing remotely related to burning the planet completely or etc. To the pure, God shows Himself pure. To the vile, He allows Himself to be seen as vile.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I would think that it will be in the new earth when that is totally fulfilled. On the other hand it applies also to a large extent to the millennium.

LOL. This is unbelievable. Make up your mind. It does not refer to both. What a ridiculous response. You will clearly do anything and go to any lengths to try to keep your doctrine afloat.

So when you look at a verse, you can pinpoint the time quite often. If I were coloring verses in that chapter that dealt with the 1000 years green, and coloring red for verses that apply to the eternal new earth and heaven, I might color that verse red. You see, there are both colors in that chapter!

LOL. Do you think you're convincing anyone with this nonsense?

 

[dad]

How does that equate to only a few days or a few weeks? LOL.

When I guess at 'days or weeks or whatever' that need not equate to any exact time. Try to debate honestly.

Here is another passage that speaks about a little season:

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Don't think you can latch onto any similar type word to make the passage fit your cult. No. There is of course also a short time on earth that the devil has during the Tribulation.

Is it your view that the souls of the dead believers in heaven who are asking how long it will be until the Lord avenges their deaths only have to wait a few days or a few weeks after the fifth seal is opened for that to happen?

Folks in heaven, particularly those killed in the tribulation will be praying for God to move. That is a surprise?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I do not need to fit all things into a random chapter you toss out. Looking at Psalm 2 though, we do see who He rules over.

Here it is in technicolor.

Psalms 2:2

The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the Lord , and against his anointed, saying,
Psalms 2:4

He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision

Psalms 2:5

Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure

Psalms 2:8

Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

The picture is crystal clear here of God destroying evil kings and taking over dominion of the earth. Nothing remotely related to burning the planet completely or etc. To the pure, God shows Himself pure. To the vile, He allows Himself to be seen as vile.

Verse 8 expands on what was said before to include "the heathen" as those He will destroy. And did you somehow forget that John expanded on this to show who will be destroyed at that time? It isn't just the evil kings of the earth.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Can you see here how it first talks about "kings, generals, and the mighty" being destroyed but then expands out to "all people, free and slave, great and small". Why do you miss details like this? Because you know your doctrine contradicts these details that you purposely ignore.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When I guess at 'days or weeks or whatever' that need not equate to any exact time. Try to debate honestly.

I am debating honestly. I can go only go by what you say. Do you not mean what you say? You said a few days or a few weeks because you know if the little season goes on for years then your view of the heavens and earth being burned up a the end of the thousand years (before Satan's little season) will make no sense.

Don't think you can latch onto any similar type word to make the passage fit your cult. No. There is of course also a short time on earth that the devil has during the Tribulation.

Of just a few days or a few weeks? By the way, Amillennialism is not a cult, it's an end times doctrine within Christianity just like yours is. While I obviously completely disagree with your end times doctrine I would never accuse you of being in a cult. You are incredibly immature and need to grow up.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You Zionist claims are found no place in scripture, but flow from the teachings of John N. Darby 1830's and C.I. Scofield 1909, better known as dispensationalism, with its headquarters now at "Dallas Theological Cemetary"

"Dallas Theological Cemetary".

 

[farouk]

I can think of more than 22 reasons why not to abandon it; not least because in Scripture the church and Israel are distinct and because in 1 Cor. 11.26 in words which speak of the institution of the Lord's Supper ("till He come") it is most definitely the church in view.

 

[dad]

How many unbelievers survived the flood? None.

Well, sometimes I wonder if some of the folks on the ark were great believers. One kid 'molested' his dad when he was drunk apparently, for example and got cursed! The point is that the earth was fine. Jesus did not come to rule that time. He will this time and there will be nations here. I suspect that in nations today, by and large, there is more than rabid unbelievers who live there.

What happens to believers when Christ returns? We will be changed and have immortal bodies. So, who exactly are these imaginary mortal people that you think will populate the earth at that point?

You know, I could fine tune this stuff if I was talking to a believer. You seem to be more of a nay sayer that does not really believe a lot of the bible. There would be no way to agree or get anywhere with you.

Yes, it does because that's what it clearly says. It's not talking about just some of the earth being burned.

Then color that part of the verse with another color than you would any other verses or parts of verses that spoke about the time when Jesus first returns. Not rocket science that.

Also, it does mean eternity will have been ushered in at that point because there will be no more death when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in (Rev 21:1-4).

No. The time when all is burned and earth made new is at the end of 1000 years.

So, now you're questioning which God I follow just because I disagree with you on end times doctrine?

Yes. When people see Jesus as some monster it makes me wonder what Jesus they think they know.

Why am I bothering with you?

Why do flies buzz around?

It's insane to think it's literally talking about birds eating people at all in light of what it says in 2 Peter 3:10-13. People will be burned up.

So now you say all will die, only it is the fire. Whatever, the problem is all people do not die.

There won't be anything to eat.

Did you make that up? Dark imagination. When Jesus returns how could there not be plenty?

It's figurative language being used in Revelation 19 to describe the destruction of "all people, free and slave, great and small"? It's interesting how you want to take the birds eating dead people literally but you don't take it literally when it describes the destruction of "ALL PEOPLE, free and slave, great and small".

To be clear the birds clean up the remains of the fools that fought God.

 

[dad]

I am debating honestly. I can go only go by what you say. Do you not mean what you say? You said a few days or a few weeks because you know if the little season goes on for years then your view of the heavens and earth being burned up a the end of the thousand years (before Satan's little season) will make no sense.

I do not plan to guess the exact time involved when God releases the devil for a while at the end of the 1000 years.

By the way, Amillennialism is not a cult, it's an end times doctrine within Christianity just like yours is. While I obviously completely disagree with your end times doctrine I would never accuse you of being in a cult. You are incredibly immature and need to grow up.

Cult was the most flattering word I could think of that I could post in public.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is a total red herring. Who said Scripture said that? This only occurs at the second coming. This is another deflection from the facts presented. All the rest is spiritualizing away God's literal truth.

You reinforce my thesis in the Op:

(6) Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literal, yet, when you put their theology to the test an opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Their own hermeneutics actually forbids their beliefs. As Kim Riddlebarger says: “Their own hermeneutics will not bear the weight that is assigned to it … they cannot make good on their own stated hermeneutics”

The earth remaining forever does not negate the regeneration of the current corrupt earth. It will be glorified to accommodate the glorified saints. The wicked are not worthy to inherit it.

In Luke 20:34-36, Jesus basically compares the temporal imperfect state of this present age/world to the glory of the age/world to come. Jesus says: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy (or kataxioō) to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

This couldn’t be any clearer.

Those that are worthy to obtain the age to come are not mortals and not sinners; they are the glorified saints – who are said to never die. The Lord makes it clear “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels.”

It is “the children of God” alone that are glorified and therefore past from life unto death. It is “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (or aion or age).” This privileged group no longer engage in temporal earthly relationships “Neither can they die any more.” First, we see it is only the elect that are worthy of inheriting the age to come, secondly, according to Jesus, death is not possible in the next age (i.e., “that age”). This favoured group cannot die because they possess eternal glorified bodies. This totally negates the Premil paradigm.

We cannot overlook the clear teaching that one must be “accounted worthy to obtain” the “world (or age)” to come. This is a very definite precondition for entering the new earth. That worthiness is obviously found in Christ. All that are saved when the Master returns will immediately be glorified, thus perfectly qualifying them to inhabit the newly regenerated earth. We see this mentioned in this reading. It is only those deemed fully justified that make it. There is only a certain type of person therefore that Christ counts worthy to “obtain” or tugchano meaning ‘to attain or secure an object or end’. It is a personal relation with Christ. There is no other ticket into the eternal state.

The children of the wicked one are not worthy to populate the new regenerated earth. As we have highlighted, the phrase “to obtain that world” is taken from the single Greek word kataxioo which means ‘to deem entirely deserving’. It plainly requires special merit to inherit the age to come.

Exactly! Well said. Jesus VERY CLEARLY indicated that those who are found worthy to obtain the age to come will not marry and "can no longer die". This does not allow for mortals to obtain the age to come. Period. It couldn't be more clear. This lines up with Paul saying that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor 15:50). He was talking about the kingdom that we will inherit at Christ's second coming which was created for us "from the foundation of the world" (Matt 25:34) in which we will have "everlasting life" (Matt 25:46). Scripture very clearly teaches that no mortals will inherit that eternal kingdom which we will inherit at the end of this age. So, there will be no mortals in the eternal age to come.

For years, Premils have boasted that they are the true literalists. They have, in turn, criticized Amils, and condemned them for spiritualizing. Ironically, this criticism has arisen due to the figurative approach Amils have to the most symbolic book in the Bible - Revelation. Of course, that is not true. I have shown for quite some time that the opposite is actually true. Premils spiritualize what is literal and literalize what is spiritual. Above is a case-in-point.

Absolutely. Look what they do with passages like Matthew 24:35-44, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13 and Revelation 19:17-18. All of a sudden they throw away their literal approach when it comes to passages like these.

 

[dad]

Verse 8 expands on what was said before to include "the heathen" as those He will destroy. And did you somehow forget that John expanded on this to show who will be destroyed at that time? It isn't just the evil kings of the earth.

No He will rule. Only the wicked will He destroy. Not earth. Not everyone on earth.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Can you see here how it first talks about "kings, generals, and the mighty" being destroyed but then expands out to "all people, free and slave, great and small". Why do you miss details like this? Because you know your doctrine contradicts these details that you purposely ignore.

It does not mean birds eat all people on earth, sorry. They eat folks from all nations who died fighting God. We might call that a UN smorgasbord.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, sometimes I wonder if some of the folks on the ark were great believers.

Believers are believers. None of us are great. You're trying to dismiss my argument instead of addressing it. That doesn't work.

You know, I could fine tune this stuff if I was talking to a believer.

Judge not or you will be judged with the same measure that you judge others. That won't be good for you. I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and aim to follow Him and serve Him every day for the rest of my life into eternity. Is that something an unbeliever would say? To judge me just because I disagree with your end times doctrine is ludicrous and shows once again your incredible lack of maturity. I would never say that you are not a believer. I believe that you are. But, I believe that you are a very immature one. I believe, in terms of end times doctrine at least, you are still sipping the milk of God's Word instead of taking in solid food.

You seem to be more of a nay sayer that does not really believe a lot of the bible.

That's utter nonsense. You should be more careful about judging others.

There would be no way to agree or get anywhere with you.

When it comes to end times doctrine it does appear that we disagree on almost everything, if not everything. But, there is more to the Bible than just end times doctrine, of course.

No. The time when all is burned and earth made new is at the end of 1000 years.

So, how can Satan's little season, which follows the 1000 years, occur in that case?

Yes. When people see Jesus as some monster it makes me wonder what Jesus they think they know.

What did you mean by this? How are you thinking that I "see Jesus as some monster"? Do you not think He will destroy His enemies when He returns even though scripture clearly indicates that He will? I didn't think our disagreement was over that, I thought it was over how many of His enemies He will destroy at that time. If you also believe He will be destroying a lot of people when He returns, then does that mean you see Him as a monster? Do you see God as being a monster because He destroyed all but 8 people on the earth in Noah's day?

So now you say all will die, only it is the fire. Whatever, the problem is all people do not die.

All unbelievers, obviously. Believers will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air, so we don't be on the earth at that point. But, all people still on the earth after we are caught up will be destroyed.

Did you make that up? Dark imagination. When Jesus returns how could there not be plenty?

Dark imagination? Where do you come up with this stuff? Scripture says Jesus will be destroying a lot of people when He returns. Does that trouble you?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No He will rule. Only the wicked will He destroy. Not earth. Not everyone on earth.

Scripture uses the terms "the wicked" to describe all unbelievers. So, I agree that He will only destroy the wicked. The righteous (believers) will be changed to have immortal bodies. This doesn't leave any mortal people on the earth to populate this imaginary 1000 year earthly kingdom that you believe in.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Cult was the most flattering word I could think of that I could post in public.

You're putting yourself in danger, buddy. Have you never read this:

Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This I fully agree with.
Isaiah 65:17 clearly refers to the new earth, which does not come until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7
Then: Isaiah 65:18-24 describes the Millennium period.

That is like saying Revelation 21:1 clearly refers to the new earth, but then Revelation 21:2-7 describes the Millennium period. What nonsense. So, based on how you interpret Isaiah 65:19-20, you don't think people will mourn the loss of loved ones during this supposed future Millennium period?

You are wrong.
Isaiah 65:20 is a plain easily understood statement. During the Millennium people will live for much longer, as they did in the time of the Patriarchs.
I think there will be much more Oxygen in the atmosphere again.

And no one will care when someone dies, apparently, since verse 19 says there will be no more weeping or crying at that point. Wait, no more weeping or crying? That reminds me of Revelation 21:4 which relates to the new heavens and new earth.

 

[dad]

Believers are believers. None of us are great. You're trying to dismiss my argument instead of addressing it. That doesn't work.

The important thing in that story, relative to the end period, is that God saved His people. He saves us in the Rapture! But the spin I think you try to put on it is that the world was destroyed. It wasn't There was still a world here as there will be in the millennium.

I believe in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and aim to follow Him and serve Him every day for the rest of my life into eternity.

OK

When it comes to end times doctrine it does appear that we disagree on almost everything, if not everything. But, there is more to the Bible than just end times doctrine, of course.

Some folks believe in Jesus, but not most of the bible yet I guess.

So, how can Satan's little season, which follows the 1000 years, occur in that case?

I do not see the problem. Why would Satan not be released to do his thing with the rebels after the 1000 years, when God wraps it all up?

What did you mean by this? How are you thinking that I "see Jesus as some monster"?

Thinking He kills everyone on earth.

Do you not think He will destroy His enemies when He returns even though scripture clearly indicates that He will?

Yes thank God but I do not see evryone on earth at that time as being enemies.

I didn't think our disagreement was over that, I thought it was over how many of His enemies He will destroy at that time.

He deroys all enemies.

If you also believe He will be destroying a lot of people when He returns, then does that mean you see Him as a monster?

No, it is a righteous thing to stop the wicked and save others.

All unbelievers, obviously. Believers will be caught up to meet Jesus in the air, so we don't be on the earth at that point. But, all people still on the earth after we are caught up will be destroyed.

No. If the rapture is as the bible says before the wrath of God on earth, because we are not destined to that, then most of the world is still here and alive.

 

[dad]

You're putting yourself in danger, buddy. Have you never read this:

Matthew 7:1 “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

The fear of the Lord is to hate evil. When I see teachings that are false and that are repeated wholeheartedly, I consider that evil. We can and should judge doctrines and teachings. The people behind those is another matter.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The important thing in that story, relative to the end period, is that God saved His people. He saves us in the Rapture! But the spin I think you try to put on it is that the world was destroyed. It wasn't There was still a world here as there will be in the millennium.

I'm not saying that the earth will be completely annihilated. It will be renewed, resulting in the eternal new earth which is where we will dwell for eternity with immortal bodies.

Some folks believe in Jesus, but not most of the bible yet I guess.

I believe all of the Bible is true just like you do. If I misinterpret any of it, it isn't because I don't believe in it.

I do not see the problem. Why would Satan not be released to do his thing with the rebels after the 1000 years, when God wraps it all up?

Based on Peter and Jesus both comparing the future fiery event to what happened in the flood (2 Peter 3:5-7, Matthew 24:35-39), it will affect the entire earth. So, no unbelievers can survive that. Believers, meanwhile, will all have immortal bodies. So, who would that leave for Satan to "do his thing with" at that point? No one. You're not understanding that Revelation 20:9 and 2 Peter 3:10-12 are speaking of the same event.

Thinking He kills everyone on earth.
Yes thank God but I do not see evryone on earth at that time as being enemies.

You don't see all unbelievers as being His enemies? Jesus Himself said "He who is not with me is against me" (Matt 12:30). Keep in mind I'm not saying everyone on earth includes believers. We will be "in the air" with Jesus at that point. Unbelievers will still be on the earth and Jesus will destroy them. That is what scripture teaches.

He deroys all enemies.

Okay, so how does that leave any mortal people to populate the earth at that time then, keeping in mind that believers will all have immortal bodies at that point?

No, it is a righteous thing to stop the wicked and save others.

I agree. So, what exactly is your problem with what I believe then that caused you to think that I believe Jesus is a monster?

No. If the rapture is as the bible says before the wrath of God on earth, because we are not destined to that, then most of the world is still here and alive.

After the rapture occurs, there will be no believers left on the earth. Unbelievers are His enemies are they not? Yes, they are. So, they will be destroyed at that point. This is what is described in passages like 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 1 Thess 4:13-5:11. We will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and He will then destroy His enemies that are still on the earth at that point.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The fear of the Lord is to hate evil. When I see teachings that are false and that are repeated wholeheartedly, I consider that evil. We can and should judge doctrines and teachings.

I agree with that, but you're taking it too far. You're acting like I said something to indicate that I reject Jesus or something.

The people behind those is another matter.

You were implying that I'm part of a cult because of what I believe which would mean that I'm not a believer. Which would mean that I'm heading for hell. That is not acceptable for you to judge me like that and it puts you in danger of being judged the same way on the day of judgment. Do you understand what I'm telling you?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I can think of more than 22 reasons why not to abandon it; not least because in Scripture the church and Israel are distinct and because in 1 Cor. 11.26 in words which speak of the institution of the Lord's Supper ("till He come") it is most definitely the church in view.

Who is saying that the church and Israel (assuming you mean the nation of Israel) are the same? No one. What some of us claim is that the church is spiritual Israel which is distinct from the nation of Israel.