22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Truth7t7]

Polly want a cracker? Saying it doesn't make it so.

Revelation 20:6

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As much as you stop your ears and close your eyes it ain't going nowhere. That is the future for believers. Ruling nations. Not on Pluto, but right on good old earth. This is where Jesus is coming back to as the angels said. All your attempts to wave away Scripture are futile.

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Truth7t7]

No. You force NHNE and last days passages into Rev 20 because you have no millennial passages. Isaiah 65 describes the perfect eternal state. This exposes the Premil hermeneutics for what they are - ad-hoc, questionable and bias.

I Agree 100%, they fraudulently use the eternal kingdom in the NHNE and claim its a Mortal Millennial Kingdom on this earth

We know we'll Jesus Christ returns in (The Day Of The Lord) 2 Peter 3:10-13 (The End)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I see, so I made up these verses?

Psalms 2:6



Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Psalms 2:7



I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Psalms 2:8



Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

Psalms 2:9



Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.



So when we hear 'thy rod and thy staff they comfort me' we should expect that it really means He is about to whack His people to death?

In both cases we see the word rule. Do you think it could mean rule?

It's referencing Psalm 2:9. What does that say? It says He would BREAK them with a rod of iron which is compared to Him dashing them to pieces like a potter's vessel. That is a clear portrayal of destruction, just like we see in Revelation 19:15-18. Why do you ignore that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Heaven and earth will be burned at the end of that day or time. At the end of the millennium. Not sure why having Satan released again for a few days or weeks or whatever, is a problem for you?

LOL! A few days or a few weeks? Where are you getting that nonsense from? Regardless, he is loosed AFTER the thousand years (millennium) ends. But, you have the earth being burned up already at the end of the millennium and before Satan is loosed. So, how could Satan's little season even occur in that case?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Did I say He detroyed everyone? That seems to be your idea not mine. He rules over ALL nations when He comes.

I get it from scripture like Matthew 24:35-39 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 which state that He will destroy all unbelievers when He returns just as God did in the days of Noah. Then there is this:

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

You believe that some "that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" will survive His return. Why? That blatantly contradicts what Paul taught.

No at all. He smites all who are enemies or fight Him. The flesh that the birds eat, in case this is news for you, are dead people! Not all people on earth!!
False! It talks about dead people of all nations, it is not talking about God killing everyone on earth alive!

I'm not sure what Bible you are reading.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I see nothing wrong with that passage and have no idea why you imagine it is something that disagrees with anything I believe. Explain?


I hear there is no more curse in heaven? In the verse in this chapter we see someone cursed.

Isaiah 65:16

That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
Isaiah 65:17

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isaiah 65:18

But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isaiah 65:19

And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isaiah 65:20

There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

So what this look like to me is that it talks of the future when He creates a new earth. Then it goes back and talks to them right there. 'But be ye..'
Then is mentions some wonderful things from the 1000 years which is just before He creates that new earth and heaven!

Confirming this we see, as mentioned that there is still a curse in the part about the 1000 years. Further confirming this beyond any doubt, we see death is mentioned and we know for sure there is no more death in the new earth! For the win.

No. That 'child' died and was cursed! That is not the new earth period.

Read verse 19. Will no one mourn the death of loved ones during this supposed future 1000 year time period?

 

[Keraz]

Isaiah 65 describes the perfect eternal state.

Complete wakadoodle!
Eternity cannot be like what Isaiah 65:18-25 says. There is no procreation then.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My argument was that there will be people on earth to be "ruled over." The assumption I'm making is that history will continue on, as at present, only with Satan bound and glorified saints ruling to keep Satan and his angels at bay.

In other words, history will continue on as at present, with mortal human beings still being given the chance to choose for or reject Christ, just as it is today. They will be found worthy of their own resurrection at the end of the Millennium if they accept Christ as Lord during their time in the Millennial Age.

Who exactly are these mortal people who will be allowed to survive Christ's return?

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

To me, this is very clear that He will be destroying all unbelievers at His return. What unbelievers don't fit the description given in verse 8? And we know believers will all be changed and have immortal bodies at that point. That doesn't leave any mortals. Premil just contradicts so much scripture that I can't even keep track of it all. But, it changes all of these scriptures like this one to fit the Premil interpretation of Revelation 20 instead of interpreting Revelation 20 in light of these other scriptures.

 

[dad]

Revelation 20:1-6 Isnt A Millennial Kingdom On This Earth, Dont Be Deceived

Can you find the things claimed by those teaching a Literal 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom On This Earth in Revelation 20:1-6 below?

1.) Physical Earthly Kingdom?
2.) Physical Earthly Throne?
3.) Physical Mortal Humans?

The Above Claims (Don't Exist)

Revelation 20:1-6 Is 100% In The Lords (Spiritual) Angel, Heaven, Devil, Satan, The Souls, The Dead, God, Christ

100% Spiritual Realm, No "Literal" Time

2 Peter 3:8KJV
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Revelation 20:1-6KJV
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Ah, Polly does want a cracker

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Complete wakadoodle!
Eternity cannot be like what Isaiah 65:18-25 says. There is no precreation then.

Do you think the following describes eternity:

Revelation 21:Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Compare to:

Isaiah 65:17 “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind. 18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy. 19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more.

These passages are very clearly speaking of the same thing. Isaiah 65:20-25 should be interpreted in light of what it says in the preceding verses of 17-19. If you insist on taking verse 20 literally and think it's talking about death occurring at that time, then what do you do with verse 19 which talks about no more weeping and crying (just like Rev 21:4)? Do you think no one will mourn the deaths of loved ones during that time? That obviously doesn't make any sense. So, it's clear that interpreting verse 20 to be saying death will occur at that time contradicts what is said in verse 19. So, you should adjust your understanding of verse 20 accordingly while also realizing that Isaiah 65:17-25 is clearly a description of the new heavens and new earth. So, it's important to interpret it in such a way that doesn't contradict Revelation 21:1-7.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, that's a very good argument. However, for me, it doesn't fit the entire biblical picture. And so, I think the termination of heaven and earth can be looked at in a different way, to accommodate what I think the true biblical picture is and what this actually means.

Clearly, heaven and earth did not pass away in the days of Noah's Flood. But the language does suggest it passed away in a sense. The *experience* of heaven and earth certainly passed away for those who died. And certainly the environment in that local region was so radically changed that it could be said to have passed away.

How many unbelievers on the earth survived the flood in Noah's day? None, right? And how many did Jesus say will survive His second coming? The same number who survived the flood in Noah's day. None.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Jesus very clearly said regarding unbelievers that "the flood came and took them all away". And He said "that is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". What is how it will be at His second coming? The flood destroying all unbelievers. That. It will be just like that at His second coming according to Jesus Himself. So, in light of that, why do you have any unbelievers surviving His second coming?

 

[WPM]

Complete wakadoodle!
Eternity cannot be like what Isaiah 65:18-25 says. There is no precreation then.

Exactly, where is it in the text?

 

[dad]

It's referencing Psalm 2:9. What does that say? It says He would BREAK them with a rod of iron which is compared to Him dashing them to pieces like a potter's vessel. That is a clear portrayal of destruction, just like we see in Revelation 19:15-18. Why do you ignore that?

No, He will then rule them with a rod of iron. Nothing remotely similar to wiping out all people on earth. You have a gross imagination and a dark misconception of the heart and plan of God.

 

[dad]

LOL! A few days or a few weeks? Where are you getting that nonsense from? Regardless, he is loosed AFTER the thousand years (millennium) ends. But, you have the earth being burned up already at the end of the millennium and before Satan is loosed. So, how could Satan's little season even occur in that case?

Yes, loosed for a little while. Which part of that are you having problem chewing?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Pretty amazing that you are unable to understand that there will be a 1000 year reign on this earth. I would bother the post the plethora of scriptures that show this as I'm sure they have been posted in the past. The blind just can't see, no matter how clear the Word is. It's ALMOST baffling.

It IS baffling how you are seeing anything that teaches a 1000 year reign on the earth. Scripture teaches that there is one judgment day, one resurrection day, that all unbelievers will be killed when Christ returns and that all believers will be changed to have immortal bodies when He returns. So, who exactly are these people that you think will populate the earth during this supposed future 1000 year reign?

Try this, though I'm not sure why I am bothering to post what the blind cannot see. God created the earth in 6 days. On the 7th day he rested. A day with the Lord is as a 1000 years. There has been close to 6000 years since Adam. After the return of Christ there will be a 1000 years where the lion lies down with the lamb. Hence 7 days.

Where is this taught in scripture that there would be 6000 years of history at which point Christ would return and then there would be 1000 more years? And what about Satan's little season here? You Premils always seem to forget about that and act like history ends when the 1000 years ends.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, He will then rule them with a rod of iron. Nothing remotely similar to wiping out all people on earth. You have a gross imagination and a dark misconception of the heart and plan of God.

Your responses are weak. You don't address any of our arguments. You just childishly respond with one liners. You clearly can't be taken seriously. Show me in Psalms 2:9 where it portrays Jesus ruling over people in the way that you're talking about. Good luck.

 

[dad]

I get it from scripture like Matthew 24:35-39 and 2 Peter 3:3-13 which state that He will destroy all unbelievers when He returns just as God did in the days of Noah. Then there is this:

Matthew compares the return of Jesus with the flood where only a few were saved. After the flood billions of people were born. The world itself was not destroyed. Noah still grew a vineyard etc. As for 2 Peter, the verse speaks of that part of the day of the Lord (after the 1000 years) when, as other places in the bible tell us, God makes a new earth and heaven.

2 Thess 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

That does not mean torching the planet. Sorry. That means destroying enemies such as those gathered for a fight with God in Israel etc. To rule this world you need to take out the wicked. He will do that. Yet there will still be nations to rule. You seem to be mistaking Jesus with a Charles Manson type of man. (an mutilating scripture accordingly)

I'm not sure what Bible you are reading.

I am not sure what god you think you know.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

All nations and peoples are represented in the armies fighting God in the end. They all die. The birds clean up. It is insane to think that means birds eat all people on earth. Utterly ridiculous.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, loosed for a little while. Which part of that are you having problem chewing?

How does that equate to only a few days or a few weeks? LOL.

Here is another passage that speaks about a little season:

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Is it your view that the souls of the dead believers in heaven who are asking how long it will be until the Lord avenges their deaths only have to wait a few days or a few weeks after the fifth seal is opened for that to happen?

 

[dad]

Read verse 19. Will no one mourn the death of loved ones during this supposed future 1000 year time period?

I would think that it will be in the new earth when that is totally fulfilled. On the other hand it applies also to a large extent to the millennium. So when you look at a verse, you can pinpoint the time quite often. If I were coloring verses in that chapter that dealt with the 1000 years green, and coloring red for verses that apply to the eternal new earth and heaven, I might color that verse red. You see, there are both colors in that chapter!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matthew compares the return of Jesus with the flood where only a few were saved. After the flood billions of people were born. The world itself was not destroyed. Noah still grew a vineyard etc.

How many unbelievers survived the flood? None. What happens to believers when Christ returns? We will be changed and have immortal bodies. So, who exactly are these imaginary mortal people that you think will populate the earth at that point?

As for 2 Peter, the verse speaks of that part of the day of the Lord (after the 1000 years) when, as other places in the bible tell us, God makes a new earth and heaven.
That does not mean torching the planet.

Yes, it does because that's what it clearly says. It's not talking about just some of the earth being burned. Also, it does mean eternity will have been ushered in at that point because there will be no more death when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in (Rev 21:1-4).

Sorry. That means destroying enemies such as those gathered for a fight with God in Israel etc. To rule this world you need to take out the wicked. He will do that. Yet there will still be nations to rule. You seem to be mistaking Jesus with a Charles Manson type of man. (an mutilating scripture accordingly)

You are an incredibly immature child. I can't take you seriously.

I am not sure what god you think you know.

So, now you're questioning which God I follow just because I disagree with you on end times doctrine? Why am I bothering with you?

All nations and peoples are represented in the armies fighting God in the end. They all die. The birds clean up. It is insane to think that means birds eat all people on earth. Utterly ridiculous.

It's insane to think it's literally talking about birds eating people at all in light of what it says in 2 Peter 3:10-13. People will be burned up. There won't be anything to eat. It's figurative language being used in Revelation 19 to describe the destruction of "all people, free and slave, great and small"? It's interesting how you want to take the birds eating dead people literally but you don't take it literally when it describes the destruction of "ALL PEOPLE, free and slave, great and small".