22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[dad]

Where does that say that they reign on the earth? I'm not seeing that.

Also, aren't Christ's followers already "priests of God and of Christ", as the following passages indicate:

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Why don't you base your understanding of the timing of a verse like Revelation 20:6 on verses like these? Because of doctrinal bias perhaps?

The nations we rule are....where, class?

 

[WPM]

A big non response without scriptural support, talk, talk, talk, empty, not to be taken seriously

Exactly!

 

[Truth7t7]

The nations we rule are....where, class?

More gibberish without scripture in support

 

[dad]

Isaiah 65:17-21 declares, “For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.”

The one thing we know for sure is that Scripture does not contradict itself in any way. The way you explain this passage would lead us to believe that this passage is the one exception to this rule in Scripture.

I see nothing wrong with that passage and have no idea why you imagine it is something that disagrees with anything I believe. Explain?

The first thing we see in this reading is the time period in view; the Old Testament prophet explains that he is specifically speaking of the “new heavens and a new earth.” This is indisputable and cannot be a matter for theological debate. Whilst there are challenging parts to this passage, we can be sure of the fact that the detail described will be fulfilled in the “new heavens and a new earth.” In fact, the wording is so explicit in relation to the time-period that it removes any ambiguity or uncertainty for the reader on that front. This is the first absolute we can establish with this reading.

Isaiah 65 is speaking about the NHNE, not some imaginary millennium in the future, which none of the OT prophets, Christ or any of the NT writers recognized. What is more: it doesn't say that people die there. Read the original Hebrew.

I hear there is no more curse in heaven? In the verse in this chapter we see someone cursed.

Isaiah 65:16

That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
Isaiah 65:17

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isaiah 65:18

But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isaiah 65:19

And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isaiah 65:20

There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

So what this look like to me is that it talks of the future when He creates a new earth. Then it goes back and talks to them right there. 'But be ye..'
Then is mentions some wonderful things from the 1000 years which is just before He creates that new earth and heaven!

Confirming this we see, as mentioned that there is still a curse in the part about the 1000 years. Further confirming this beyond any doubt, we see death is mentioned and we know for sure there is no more death in the new earth! For the win.

Basically: a child will never become old on the new earth.

No. That 'child' died and was cursed! That is not the new earth period.

What is this telling us?

The exact same thing, only in different terms.

This is called synonymous parallelism. It is telling us that a child will never become old on the new earth. This line reinforces what has just been said. It confirms the thought of the impending reality of no more death in the eternal state for the righteous

If you are correct, then why did the man die and get cursed?

In the NIV it says this

20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.

It talks about building houses and farming in the chapter after this, confirming it is the 1000 years as well.

Debate in Isaiah 65:20 centers in on the use of the original word yaamuw meaning “die” or “death.” What should we relate it to? Is there indeed “death” on the new earth?

NO there is no more death

What is needed is understanding and the spirit to discern when a passage changes and refers to a different time.

 

[dad]

A big non response without scriptural support, talk, talk, talk, empty, not to be taken seriously

Your inability to answer the post does nothing to diminish it's depth.

 

[dad]

More gibberish without scripture in support

Last time I checked nations were on earth. Deal with it.

 

[Truth7t7]

I see nothing wrong with that passage and have no idea why you imagine it is something that disagrees with anything I believe. Explain?


I hear there is no more curse in heaven? In the verse in this chapter we see someone cursed.

Isaiah 65:16

That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
Isaiah 65:17

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isaiah 65:18

But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isaiah 65:19

And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isaiah 65:20

There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

So what this look like to me is that it talks of the future when He creates a new earth. Then it goes back and talks to them right there. 'But be ye..'
Then is mentions some wonderful things from the 1000 years which is just before He creates that new earth and heaven!

Confirming this we see, as mentioned that there is still a curse in the part about the 1000 years. Further confirming this beyond any doubt, we see death is mentioned and we know for sure there is no more death in the new earth! For the win.



No. That 'child' died and was cursed! That is not the new earth period.


If you are correct, then why did the man die and get cursed?

In the NIV it says this

20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.

It talks about building houses and farming in the chapter after this, confirming it is the 1000 years as well.



NO there is no more death

What is needed is understanding and the spirit to discern when a passage changes and refers to a different time.

Isaiah chapter 65 is the new heaven and earth, a child dying is figuritive speech and not literal as you claim

Keep searching for your Millennial Kingdom on this earth, found no place in scripture

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It comes across that way when you claim that we deny that God will keep His promises.

We're debating, brother. I don't believe you think you're negating God's promises. *I think* that you're negating God's promises logically. It's my thought that when you deny Israel her national restoration in the Millennium that you deny that's what was meant in the Abrahamic Covenant.

I know you have a different interpretation of the Abrahamic Covenant, and therefore do not believe denying Israel a Millennial restoration has anything to do with it. Fair enough?

Premil? Did you mean Amil? Why can't you word it more like this then instead of just making outright claims that our view teaches that God's promises regarding Israel fail?

Yes, I meant Amil. It's difficult to constantly word things in an understanding way for me. It takes a lot of work. I'll go back and edit it to say it properly.

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

Please try to look at this objectively. First, Jesus indicated that people in this age "marry and are given in marriage". But, He indicated in the age to come that people won't get married. And He indicated that "they can no longer die". Yet, as a Premil, you believe that mortal people will be on the earth after Christ returns. Do you not believe that people will die during the thousand years, which is what you see as being the age to come? Do you not believe that people will get married during that time?

Yes, I believe that those *Christians* who are found worthy *as Christians* to partake of the resurrection at Jesus' 2nd Coming will not die again in the Age to Come, namely the Millennial Age and on into Eternity. This excludes, in my theology, those in the present age who are not Christian and thus not found worthy to obtain the glorification of the saints. They will enter the Millennial Age as mortals, and may obtain their own glorification at the end of the Millennium, if found worthy.

The passage you're citing is only dealing with people who will become Christians in the present age. Jesus spoke of others who will be *ruled over* in the coming age. That would not be glorified Christians!

 

[Truth7t7]

We're debating, brother. I don't believe you think you're negating God's promises. *I think* that you're negating God's promises logically. It's my thought that when you deny Israel her national restoration in the Millennium that you deny that's what was meant in the Abrahamic Covenant.

I know you have a different interpretation of the Abrahamic Covenant, and therefore do not believe denying Israel a Millennial restoration has anything to do with it. Fair enough?



Yes, I meant Amil. It's difficult to constantly word things in an understanding way for me. It takes a lot of work. I'll go back and edit it to say it properly.



Yes, I believe that those *Christians* who are found worthy *as Christians* to partake of the resurrection at Jesus' 2nd Coming will not die again in the Age to Come, namely the Millennial Age and on into Eternity. This excludes, in my theology, those in the present age who are not Christian and thus not found worthy to obtain the glorification of the saints. They will enter the Millennial Age as mortals, and may obtain their own glorification at the end of the Millennium, if found worthy.

The passage you're citing is only dealing with people who will become Christians in the present age. Jesus spoke of others who will be *ruled over* in the coming age. That would not be glorified Christians!

There isn't going to be a future restoration of National Israel, Or a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, your Zionism is on full display

 

[dad]

Isaiah chapter 65 is the new heaven and earth, a child dying is figuritive speech and not literal as you claim

So now the man did not 'really' die! I suppose the 100 years is not really a hundred years either? What is it a hot dog? Keep us posted on what Scripture really means now.

Keep searching for your Millennial Kingdom on this earth, found no place in scripture

No sense searching it is not here yet.

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation tells us when exactly. After the 1000 years. Clearly. Specifically.

 

[Randy Kluth]

There isn't going to be a future restoration of National Israel, Or a Millennial Kingdom on this earth, your Zionism is on full display

Thank you--I wish my "Zionism" to be on "full display." I'm not ashamed of it. I believe God promised it. Therefore, I choose to agree with Him.

 

[WPM]

Yes, I believe that those *Christians* who are found worthy *as Christians* to partake of the resurrection at Jesus' 2nd Coming will not die again in the Age to Come, namely the Millennial Age and on into Eternity. This excludes, in my theology, those in the present age who are not Christian and thus not found worthy to obtain the glorification of the saints. They will enter the Millennial Age as mortals, and may obtain their own glorification at the end of the Millennium, if found worthy.

The passage you're citing is only dealing with people who will become Christians in the present age. Jesus spoke of others who will be *ruled over* in the coming age. That would not be glorified Christians!

What unregenerate are worthy to populate your future millennium and on what grounds? Basically, what is the biblical criteria, if any?

 

[WPM]

I see nothing wrong with that passage and have no idea why you imagine it is something that disagrees with anything I believe. Explain?


I hear there is no more curse in heaven? In the verse in this chapter we see someone cursed.

Isaiah 65:16

That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
Isaiah 65:17

For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Isaiah 65:18

But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
Isaiah 65:19

And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
Isaiah 65:20

There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

So what this look like to me is that it talks of the future when He creates a new earth. Then it goes back and talks to them right there. 'But be ye..'
Then is mentions some wonderful things from the 1000 years which is just before He creates that new earth and heaven!

Confirming this we see, as mentioned that there is still a curse in the part about the 1000 years. Further confirming this beyond any doubt, we see death is mentioned and we know for sure there is no more death in the new earth! For the win.



No. That 'child' died and was cursed! That is not the new earth period.


If you are correct, then why did the man die and get cursed?

In the NIV it says this

20 "Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed.

It talks about building houses and farming in the chapter after this, confirming it is the 1000 years as well.



NO there is no more death

What is needed is understanding and the spirit to discern when a passage changes and refers to a different time.

You keep applying this to some imaginary future millennium when there is no mention in the text. This is typical Premil. They are constantly adding to Scripture. It is expressly talking about the NHNE that comes when Jesus appears.

After talking about the righteous and their eternal bliss the prophet then turns to the awful fate of the wicked. Isaiah 65:20 says: “the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.”

The Hebrew literally reads:

וְהַ֣חֹוטֶ֔א בֶּן־מֵאָ֥ה שָׁנָ֖ה יְקֻלָּֽל׃
wªhachowTe ben- mee'aah shaanaah yªqulaa
the sinner an hundred years old [shall be] accursed

The Hebrew literally reads:

וְהַ֣חֹוטֶ֔א בֶּן־מֵאָ֥ה שָׁנָ֖ה יְקֻלָּֽל׃
wªhachowTe ben- mee'aah šā-nāh yªqulaa
the sinner an hundred years old [shall be] accursed

וְהַ֣חוֹטֶ֔א
wªhachowTe
the sinner

בֶּן־
ben-
Old

מֵאָ֥ה
mee'aah
an hundred

שָׁנָ֖ה
šā-nāh
years

יְקֻלָּֽל׃
yªqulaa
Cursed

The Hebrew word yªqulaa simply means “is accursed.”
The Hebrew word wªhachowTe simply means "sinner."

There is no mention here of the word “death” or “die” in the Hebrew!

The inclusion of the phrase “Accursed an hundred years old sinner” is simply a solemn reminder to the reader that the fate of the unbeliever is starkly different to that being depicted for the believer on the new earth. In the midst of his joy at the revelation of the new earth the Old Testament prophet compares the bliss, blessing and perfection of the glorified new earth and the horror of the fate of the wicked in hell. The solemn thought is: the eternal horror and hopelessness that will be the lot of the wicked is not just for a short time, it is forever. There is no sense that the wicked are on the new earth here. Isaiah is not describing more of the same as Premil teaches. The new earth is not a repeat or rehash of this corruptible age. This must be forced into the text.

The writer is simply making a comparison (in the midst of his joy at the thought of the new earth) between the bliss and perfection of the glorified new earth and the horror of the fate of the wicked in the lake of fire. There is no sense that the wicked are on the earth here.

The sinner will indeed be accursed in eternity. Throughout Scripture God concentrates on the elect, and often attaches a postscript in regard to the wicked. That is all we are looking at in the phrase: “sinner old hundred years is cursed.” Their condition is eternally sealed and irreversible - it is hopeless.

There is no record of death on the new earth for the elect in the original Hebrew; only for the wicked who are experiencing eternal wrath in the Lake of Fire. Here is a notable difference between Amil and Premil, Amils believe the wicked are all judged when Jesus comes and banished into a lost eternity, Premil on the other hand (amazingly) rewards the wicked at the end (especially those who fight against Jerusalem at the end) by allowing them to inherit the new earth. The gorge between these two views couldn't be further.

 

[WPM]

Heaven and earth will be burned at the end of that day or time. At the end of the millennium. Not sure why having Satan released again for a few days or weeks or whatever, is a problem for you?

Really? Then there is no earth left for Satan to be released and deceive billions in Satan's little season.

 

[The Light]

Just like your claims that the day of the Lord is 1,000 years long, that's madness!

LOL

 

[The Light]

No place in scripture does it teach a Kingdom on this earth for 1,000 years, as you have been shown "Several Times" Revelation 20:1-6 is 100% in the Lord's spiritual realm, no kingdom on this earth is seen or mortal humans present

A 1,000 year Millennial Kingdom on this earth is a fabricated fairy tale of man, found no place in scripture

You can claim it, shout it from the roof tops, no earthly kingdom or mortal humans are seen in Revelation 20:1-6 and you can't provide it because it doesn't exist, a "Fact"!

Pretty amazing that you are unable to understand that there will be a 1000 year reign on this earth. I would bother the post the plethora of scriptures that show this as I'm sure they have been posted in the past. The blind just can't see, no matter how clear the Word is. It's ALMOST baffling.

Try this, though I'm not sure why I am bothering to post what the blind cannot see. God created the earth in 6 days. On the 7th day he rested. A day with the Lord is as a 1000 years. There has been close to 6000 years since Adam. After the return of Christ there will be a 1000 years where the lion lies down with the lamb. Hence 7 days.

 

[WPM]

Pretty amazing that you are unable to understand that there will be a 1000 year reign on this earth. I would bother the post the plethora of scriptures that show this as I'm sure they have been posted in the past. The blind just can't see, no matter how clear the Word is. It's ALMOST baffling.

Try this, though I'm not sure why I am bothering to post what the blind cannot see. God created the earth in 6 days. On the 7th day he rested. A day with the Lord is as a 1000 years. There has been close to 6000 years since Adam. After the return of Christ there will be a 1000 years where the lion lies down with the lamb. Hence 7 days.

I am noticing a pattern: you make big claims but never support it with hard biblical evidence.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What unregenerate are worthy to populate your future millennium and on what grounds? Basically, what is the biblical criteria, if any?

My argument was that there will be people on earth to be "ruled over." The assumption I'm making is that history will continue on, as at present, only with Satan bound and glorified saints ruling to keep Satan and his angels at bay.

In other words, history will continue on as at present, with mortal human beings still being given the chance to choose for or reject Christ, just as it is today. They will be found worthy of their own resurrection at the end of the Millennium if they accept Christ as Lord during their time in the Millennial Age.

 

[WPM]

My argument was that there will be people on earth to be "ruled over." The assumption I'm making is that history will continue on, as at present, only with Satan bound and glorified saints ruling to keep Satan and his angels at bay.

In other words, history will continue on as at present, with mortal human beings still being given the chance to choose for or reject Christ, just as it is today. They will be found worthy of their own resurrection at the end of the Millennium if they accept Christ as Lord during their time in the Millennial Age.

That is contrary to the Bible. You have to reject so much Scripture to get your doctrine to fit.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

Jesus says “Heaven and earth shall pass away" you say "no, that will not happen Jesus, i know better."

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Peter says “the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved," you say "no, that will not happen Peter, i know better."

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

John says “I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away," you say "no, that will not happen John, I know better."

I'm afraid, Amils go with Jesus, Peter and John here rather than Randy.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That is contrary to the Bible. You have to reject so much Scripture to get your doctrine to fit.

Jesus said in Matthew 24:35-44: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”

Jesus says “Heaven and earth shall pass away" you say "no, that will not happen Jesus, i know better."

No, that's a very good argument. However, for me, it doesn't fit the entire biblical picture. And so, I think the termination of heaven and earth can be looked at in a different way, to accommodate what I think the true biblical picture is and what this actually means.

Clearly, heaven and earth did not pass away in the days of Noah's Flood. But the language does suggest it passed away in a sense. The *experience* of heaven and earth certainly passed away for those who died. And certainly the environment in that local region was so radically changed that it could be said to have passed away.

The rolling up of the sky like a scroll indicates the radical alteration of reality on earth, because it is from earth that we witness the heavens. When the picture is clear from earth's perspective that God has changed history, then it can be said that the sky has been "rolled up like a scroll."

The biblical picture indicates God created the heavens and the earth to last forever. In modern science we know that God must indeed radically change the physical environment in order to sustain the earth forever. But we are told "the earth is forever" in at least two places that I know of in the Bible. And I believe that. You should too.

So when Jesus said that at his Coming "heaven and earth will perish," he must mean that radical judgment is coming to alter the human experience on the planet, forever ending the rule of kingdoms opposing God's Kingdom. Anyway, whether it seems like I'm rationalizing or not, that's how I see it.

2 Peter 3:3-13: “there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”

Peter says “the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved," you say "no, that will not happen Peter, i know better."

No, I'm trying to agree with what I think Scripture teaches, to be completely consistent. As above, the earth is not to be annihilated. But the dissolution of the elements can certainly take place wherever a major fire takes place or where a hydrogen bomb blows up.

And when the Bible speaks of an "earth experience," it begins with a local experience, since the earth is not looked at as a "globe" as much as a home, or real estate. I would say the heavens and the earth disappear when a bomb goes off in my county, and all I see is the darkness of smoke.

I would say "the whole earth is on fire," referring to my local region. And if that happens in regions all across the earth, the same words would be used, and even apply globally without universal annihilation.

Revelation 20:11-15 – 21:1-5: “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away (or departed). And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.”

John says “I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away," you say "no, that will not happen John, I know better."

I'm afraid, Amils go with Jesus, Peter and John here rather than Randy.

I'm not looking for followers--only disciples of Jesus like I am. If I'm wrong I pray that God shows me the error of my ways. I have no axe to grind--I just love the Bible. And I love God's word to me personally. Thanks for sharing your concerns. It well sums up the problem.