22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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Truth7t7

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So now the man did not 'really' die! I suppose the 100 years is not really a hundred years either? What is it a hot dog? Keep us posted on what Scripture really means now.
No sense searching it is not here yet.

Revelation tells us when exactly. After the 1000 years. Clearly. Specifically.
Read it again, the scripture below tells you exactly where things are, its the Newly Created Heaven and Earth

Grass is green, the sky is blue, and the words "New Heaven and Earth" means exactly what it states

Read it again and again while your eating your suggested hotdog, throw in a diet coke, smiles!

Jesus Is The Lord

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind
 
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dad

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You keep applying this to some imaginary future millennium when there is no mention in the text.
Those with wisdom also have CONTEXT

We also have certain known quantities that keep us from having to wonder about when some things happen. For example we KNOW that there is no more death in the new earth. When we see folks dying, we therefore know when it is NOT. Looking also at the rest of the bible we also know some things about when Jesus rules on earth. The whole picture is really quite simple.
After talking about the righteous and their eternal bliss the prophet then turns to the awful fate of the wicked. Isaiah 65:20 says: “the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.”
Many people today would not find it awful to live 1000 years and be considered a child if they died at 100!
The Hebrew literally reads:
וְהַ֣חֹוטֶ֔א בֶּן־מֵאָ֥ה שָׁנָ֖ה יְקֻלָּֽל׃
wªhachowTe ben- mee'aah shaanaah yªqulaa
the sinner an hundred years old
[shall be] accursed

The Hebrew literally reads:

וְהַ֣חֹוטֶ֔א בֶּן־מֵאָ֥ה שָׁנָ֖ה יְקֻלָּֽל׃
wªhachowTe ben- mee'aah šā-nāh yªqulaa
the sinner an hundred years old [shall be] accursed
Great so that is NOT the new heaven. Anything else?


The Hebrew word yªqulaa simply means “is accursed.”
The Hebrew word wªhachowTe simply means "sinner."
There again, NOT the new earth. Obviously. Is that it?

The inclusion of the phrase “Accursed an hundred years old sinner” is simply a solemn reminder to the reader that the fate of the unbeliever is starkly different to that being depicted for the believer on the new earth.
Except that is not the meaning when reading the text. Not the context. Not in agreement with the rest of the bible. Etc. If there is a curse and death it is NOT eternal new heaven and earth, period.
In the midst of his joy at the revelation of the new earth the Old Testament prophet compares the bliss, blessing and perfection of the glorified new earth and the horror of the fate of the wicked in hell. The solemn thought is: the eternal horror and hopelessness that will be the lot of the wicked is not just for a short time, it is forever.
Your attempt at stretching and bending is shallow. There is no mention in the verse of some eternal torment. It is clearly pointing out incredibly long life spans. That also leads us to KNOW it is not the new earth in itself because the lifespan in the new earth is forever!!

There is no record of death on the new earth for the elect in the original Hebrew; only for the wicked who are experiencing eternal wrath in the Lake of Fire.
The false prophet is in the lake for 1000 years and is still alive when Satan is cast in with him. Your desperate concoction does not work.
 

dad

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Really? Then there is no earth left for Satan to be released and deceive billions in Satan's little season.
Of course there is, complete with saints and rebels etc. The dark death dreams in your head are simply fantasy. Earth is very fine in the Millennium, thank you very much. Right up till God creates the new earth.
 

Truth7t7

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Thank you--I wish my "Zionism" to be on "full display." I'm not ashamed of it. I believe God promised it. Therefore, I choose to agree with Him.
You Zionist claims are found no place in scripture, but flow from the teachings of John N. Darby 1830's and C.I. Scofield 1909, better known as dispensationalism, with its headquarters now at "Dallas Theological Cemetary"
 
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Truth7t7

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Those with wisdom also have CONTEXT

We also have certain known quantities that keep us from having to wonder about when some things happen. For example we KNOW that there is no more death in the new earth. When we see folks dying, we therefore know when it is NOT. Looking also at the rest of the bible we also know some things about when Jesus rules on earth. The whole picture is really quite simple.

Many people today would not find it awful to live 1000 years and be considered a child if they died at 100!
The Hebrew literally reads:
Great so that is NOT the new heaven. Anything else?


There again, NOT the new earth. Obviously. Is that it?

Except that is not the meaning when reading the text. Not the context. Not in agreement with the rest of the bible. Etc. If there is a curse and death it is NOT eternal new heaven and earth, period.
Your attempt at stretching and bending is shallow. There is no mention in the verse of some eternal torment. It is clearly pointing out incredibly long life spans. That also leads us to KNOW it is not the new earth in itself because the lifespan in the new earth is forever!!

The false prophet is in the lake for 1000 years and is still alive when Satan is cast in with him. Your desperate concoction does not work.
There isn't literal death seen in Isaiah 65, a child dying at 100 years is (figurative speech) "Not Literal"

You disregard and remove the very clear words in verse 17 below that tells the reader the exact location of the referenced place, because you have a pre-determind bias" in making your own creation in a false Millennial Kingdom on this earth, found no place in scripture, you don't want to acknowledge the very clear verse below, because it destroy's your attempt to be the creator

"Behold I Create New Heavens And Earth"

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
 

dad

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Read it again, the scripture below tells you exactly where things are, its the Newly Created Heaven and Earth

Grass is green, the sky is blue, and the words "New Heaven and Earth" means exactly what it states

Read it again and again while your eating your suggested hotdog, throw in a diet coke, smiles!

Jesus Is The Lord

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind
You read it again. That is not the only verse in the chapter, and not the verse that speaks of the 1000 years. Are you claiming there is the curse and death in the new heaven and earth!!?
You try to wave it away by claiming it doesn't 'really' mean what it says, that a guy will die. Do you wave away the life spans of Noah and all the fathers also?
 

WPM

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Clearly, heaven and earth did not pass away in the days of Noah's Flood.

This is a total red herring. Who said Scripture said that? This only occurs at the second coming. This is another deflection from the facts presented. All the rest is spiritualizing away God's literal truth.

You reinforce my thesis in the Op:

(6) Many testify that they are Premillennial because they take the Word of God literal, yet, when you put their theology to the test an opposite picture unfolds. Premillennialism spiritualizes the literal passages and literalizes the spiritual passages. Their hyper-literalistic approach to highly-figurative Revelation is a case-in-point. Their own hermeneutics actually forbids their beliefs. As Kim Riddlebarger says: “Their own hermeneutics will not bear the weight that is assigned to it … they cannot make good on their own stated hermeneutics”

The earth remaining forever does not negate the regeneration of the current corrupt earth. It will be glorified to accommodate the glorified saints. The wicked are not worthy to inherit it.

In Luke 20:34-36, Jesus basically compares the temporal imperfect state of this present age/world to the glory of the age/world to come. Jesus says: “The children of this world (or aion or age) marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy (or kataxioō) to obtain that world (or aion or age), and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”

This couldn’t be any clearer.

Those that are worthy to obtain the age to come are not mortals and not sinners; they are the glorified saints – who are said to never die. The Lord makes it clear “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels.”

It is “the children of God” alone that are glorified and therefore past from life unto death. It is “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world (or aion or age).” This privileged group no longer engage in temporal earthly relationships “Neither can they die any more.” First, we see it is only the elect that are worthy of inheriting the age to come, secondly, according to Jesus, death is not possible in the next age (i.e., “that age”). This favoured group cannot die because they possess eternal glorified bodies. This totally negates the Premil paradigm.

We cannot overlook the clear teaching that one must be “accounted worthy to obtain” the “world (or age)” to come. This is a very definite precondition for entering the new earth. That worthiness is obviously found in Christ. All that are saved when the Master returns will immediately be glorified, thus perfectly qualifying them to inhabit the newly regenerated earth. We see this mentioned in this reading. It is only those deemed fully justified that make it. There is only a certain type of person therefore that Christ counts worthy to “obtain” or tugchano meaning ‘to attain or secure an object or end’. It is a personal relation with Christ. There is no other ticket into the eternal state.

The children of the wicked one are not worthy to populate the new regenerated earth. As we have highlighted, the phrase “to obtain that world” is taken from the single Greek word kataxioo which means ‘to deem entirely deserving’. It plainly requires special merit to inherit the age to come.

No, I'm trying to agree with what I think Scripture teaches, to be completely consistent. As above, the earth is not to be annihilated. But the dissolution of the elements can certainly take place wherever a major fire takes place or where a hydrogen bomb blows up.

And when the Bible speaks of an "earth experience," it begins with a local experience, since the earth is not looked at as a "globe" as much as a home, or real estate. I would say the heavens and the earth disappear when a bomb goes off in my county, and all I see is the darkness of smoke.

I would say "the whole earth is on fire," referring to my local region. And if that happens in regions all across the earth, the same words would be used, and even apply globally without universal annihilation.

For years, Premils have boasted that they are the true literalists. They have, in turn, criticized Amils, and condemned them for spiritualizing. Ironically, this criticism has arisen due to the figurative approach Amils have to the most symbolic book in the Bible - Revelation. Of course, that is not true. I have shown for quite some time that the opposite is actually true. Premils spiritualize what is literal and literalize what is spiritual. Above is a case-in-point.

A careful study of the Greek words ouranos and gē mentioned in 2 Peter 3, which some Premils are forced to redefine, shows your interpretation to be in error. 59 times in the New Testament “heaven” and “earth” are found together in the same passage describing exactly what the outside of the box says – what most ordinary people would understand as the “heaven” and “earth.” Interestingly in every case the two Greek words ouranos andare employed to describe the heavenly realm and the globe of the earth. Philippians 2:10 is the only slight variation, although it is only a technical difference, where a literal reading of the text should read ‘earthly’ (epigeios) and ‘heavenly’ (epouranios). However, both significantly were derived from the same two repeated Greek words used elsewhere to describe “heaven” and “earth” – ouranos and gē. What is more, of the 6 references to “heavens” (plural) and “earth” all use these two same Greek words.

I'm not looking for followers--only disciples of Jesus like I am. If I'm wrong I pray that God shows me the error of my ways. I have no axe to grind--I just love the Bible. And I love God's word to me personally. Thanks for sharing your concerns. It well sums up the problem.

Then take God's Word literally when it is intended to be literal!
 

WPM

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Of course there is, complete with saints and rebels etc. The dark death dreams in your head are simply fantasy. Earth is very fine in the Millennium, thank you very much. Right up till God creates the new earth.

You are totally contradicting yourself again. You espouse 7000 years of time. Well, your theory falls apart in Rev 20, because this disallows Satan's little season. You duck around that major contradiction. You have to!
 
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Truth7t7

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You read it again. That is not the only verse in the chapter, and not the verse that speaks of the 1000 years. Are you claiming there is the curse and death in the new heaven and earth!!?
You try to wave it away by claiming it doesn't 'really' mean what it says, that a guy will die. Do you wave away the life spans of Noah and all the fathers also?

You disregard and remove the very clear words in verse 17 below that tells the reader the exact location of the referenced place, because you have a pre-determind bias" in making your own creation in a false Millennial Kingdom on this earth, found no place in scripture

You don't want to acknowledge the very clear verse below, because it destroy's your attempt to be the creator

"Behold I Create New Heavens And Earth"

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
 
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WPM

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Those with wisdom also have CONTEXT

We also have certain known quantities that keep us from having to wonder about when some things happen. For example we KNOW that there is no more death in the new earth. When we see folks dying, we therefore know when it is NOT. Looking also at the rest of the bible we also know some things about when Jesus rules on earth. The whole picture is really quite simple.

Many people today would not find it awful to live 1000 years and be considered a child if they died at 100!
The Hebrew literally reads:
Great so that is NOT the new heaven. Anything else?


There again, NOT the new earth. Obviously. Is that it?

Except that is not the meaning when reading the text. Not the context. Not in agreement with the rest of the bible. Etc. If there is a curse and death it is NOT eternal new heaven and earth, period.
Your attempt at stretching and bending is shallow. There is no mention in the verse of some eternal torment. It is clearly pointing out incredibly long life spans. That also leads us to KNOW it is not the new earth in itself because the lifespan in the new earth is forever!!

The false prophet is in the lake for 1000 years and is still alive when Satan is cast in with him. Your desperate concoction does not work.

Why are you so vicious and bitter with your language? Your writings are hard to read.
 

WPM

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Those with wisdom also have CONTEXT

We also have certain known quantities that keep us from having to wonder about when some things happen. For example we KNOW that there is no more death in the new earth. When we see folks dying, we therefore know when it is NOT. Looking also at the rest of the bible we also know some things about when Jesus rules on earth. The whole picture is really quite simple.

Many people today would not find it awful to live 1000 years and be considered a child if they died at 100!
The Hebrew literally reads:
Great so that is NOT the new heaven. Anything else?


There again, NOT the new earth. Obviously. Is that it?

Except that is not the meaning when reading the text. Not the context. Not in agreement with the rest of the bible. Etc. If there is a curse and death it is NOT eternal new heaven and earth, period.
Your attempt at stretching and bending is shallow. There is no mention in the verse of some eternal torment. It is clearly pointing out incredibly long life spans. That also leads us to KNOW it is not the new earth in itself because the lifespan in the new earth is forever!!

The false prophet is in the lake for 1000 years and is still alive when Satan is cast in with him. Your desperate concoction does not work.

Does your mum know you are online?
 

Truth7t7

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You read it again. That is not the only verse in the chapter, and not the verse that speaks of the 1000 years. Are you claiming there is the curse and death in the new heaven and earth!!?
You try to wave it away by claiming it doesn't 'really' mean what it says, that a guy will die. Do you wave away the life spans of Noah and all the fathers also?
Isaiah 65:17-20 & Revelation 21:1-5 below are "Parallel Teachings" of the same exact place in the New Heaven and Earth

You don't want to acknowledge Isaiah 65:17 below because it destroys your attempt at creating a false Millennial Kingdom on this earth, it's that simple, and the only person who is fooled is yourself

It appears your a traveling salesman, trying to sell ice at the north pole in the middle of winter

Isaiah 65:17-20KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
 

The Light

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I am noticing a pattern: you make big claims but never support it with hard biblical evidence.
Maybe you should check more than just a few recent posts. You will find few people that provide more scriptural support than what I post. However, I have also noticed a pattern. The blind cannot see no matter what scriptures are posted. There is always an excuse to not accept what is written.
 

Randy Kluth

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The earth remaining forever does not negate the regeneration of the current corrupt earth. It will be glorified to accommodate the glorified saints. The wicked are not worthy to inherit it.

The Millennium has, in my view, several purposes. But it is *not* a reward for the unregenerate. And I don't equate "the unregenerate" with "the wicked." Many people even today are not regenerated yet, and yet are not to be viewed as "wicked people."

They are ungodly enough to go to Hell, but God views them as the objects of His love and grace. And having created them, He sees their potential. He sees the good that they do, and their potential to become "all good" in His sight, worthy of Salvation.

I'm not, of course, saying that anybody can "earn Salvation"--only that God sees our potential and our good, and is willing to fix the problem, making the atonement of Jesus applicable to our lives, enabling us to surrender all to God's Son.

So unregenerate people will enter into the Millennial Age, in my view, not to obtain a reward, but just to continue pursuing their purpose in life until they either embrace Christ or not. For the saints of this age, on the other hand, the Millennial Age is the beginning of eternity, and is indeed an eternal reward. I hope you can see how I see it differently from the way you're portraying it?

Those that are worthy to obtain the age to come are not mortals and not sinners; they are the glorified saints – who are said to never die. The Lord makes it clear “they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels.”

Yes, glorified saints enter into the Millennial Age as a reward. But as yet unregenerated mortals, people do not enter into that era *as a reward.* It is just a continuation of their lives following a world war. The change brought by Christ and the glorified saints from heaven are in evidence by the lack of satanic provocations among nations. But otherwise, the world continues as it always has. People will continue to hear the Gospel, because Christian nations will no longer be obstructed and misrepresented.

Anyway, no sense going on until you understand my point here? Agree or disagree, we will be arguing passed each other if you don't understand where I'm coming from in this regard.
 

dad

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You are totally contradicting yourself again. You espouse 7000 years of time.

I never mention 7000 years. Why make stuff up?

Well, your theory falls apart in Rev 20, because this disallows Satan's little season.
False. Satan is released at the end of the 1000 years. No news there.
You duck around that major contradiction. You have to!
What contradiction? Any confusion is not on my end.
 

Truth7t7

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The Millennium has, in my view, several purposes. But it is *not* a reward for the unregenerate. And I don't equate "the unregenerate" with "the wicked." Many people even today are not regenerated yet, and yet are not to be viewed as "wicked people."

They are ungodly enough to go to Hell, but God views them as the objects of His love and grace. And having created them, He sees their potential. He sees the good that they do, and their potential to become "all good" in His sight, worthy of Salvation.

I'm not, of course, saying that anybody can "earn Salvation"--only that God sees our potential and our good, and is willing to fix the problem, making the atonement of Jesus applicable to our lives, enabling us to surrender all to God's Son.

So unregenerate people will enter into the Millennial Age, in my view, not to obtain a reward, but just to continue pursuing their purpose in life until they either embrace Christ or not. For the saints of this age, on the other hand, the Millennial Age is the beginning of eternity, and is indeed an eternal reward. I hope you can see how I see it differently from the way you're portraying it?



Yes, glorified saints enter into the Millennial Age as a reward. But as yet unregenerated mortals, people do not enter into that era *as a reward.* It is just a continuation of their lives following a world war. The change brought by Christ and the glorified saints from heaven are in evidence by the lack of satanic provocations among nations. But otherwise, the world continues as it always has. People will continue to hear the Gospel, because Christian nations will no longer be obstructed and misrepresented.

Anyway, no sense going on until you understand my point here? Agree or disagree, we will be arguing passed each other if you don't understand where I'm coming from in this regard.
Millennial Kingdom On This Earth?

Once upon a time in the fairy tale land of Zionist make believe, found no place in scripture "Fact"
 
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dad

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Isaiah 65:17-20 & Revelation 21:1-5 below are "Parallel Teachings" of the same exact place in the New Heaven and Earth

You don't want to acknowledge Isaiah 65:17 below because it destroys your attempt at creating a false Millennial Kingdom on this earth, it's that simple, and the only person who is fooled is yourself

It appears your a traveling salesman, trying to sell ice at the north pole in the middle of winter

Isaiah 65:17-20KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Look at the next verses.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Jerusalem is restored right after He returns. It is then that there will be long life spans. At the start of His reign. After the thousand years, Jerusalem folks will still be rejoicing of course! Then, after the millennium there will be no death. So the part about someone dying real old is about that first part, the 1000 years not after when there is no death. It is a fact that prophesy sometimes changes periods mid passage or even mid verse! If you cannot comprehend that there really is no death in the new earth, that may be the problem.
Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
In the verses before we see when that happens and we are told it is after the thousand years. Period. No mystery. No issue. I wonder if the problem is that some people claiming to understand these fairly simple things do not believe. They don't believe in heaven, or that there will be no death or curse, or even a thousand year reign. They try to mask their UNBELIEF as 'spiritual' or saying it is not 'really' saying what it says.
 
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WPM

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Maybe you should check more than just a few recent posts. You will find few people that provide more scriptural support than what I post. However, I have also noticed a pattern. The blind cannot see no matter what scriptures are posted. There is always an excuse to not accept what is written.

Premils are nice people, aren't they? Everyone is blind that does not agree with them. Thanks for the chat.
 

WPM

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The Millennium has, in my view, several purposes. But it is *not* a reward for the unregenerate. And I don't equate "the unregenerate" with "the wicked." Many people even today are not regenerated yet, and yet are not to be viewed as "wicked people."

They are ungodly enough to go to Hell, but God views them as the objects of His love and grace. And having created them, He sees their potential. He sees the good that they do, and their potential to become "all good" in His sight, worthy of Salvation.

I'm not, of course, saying that anybody can "earn Salvation"--only that God sees our potential and our good, and is willing to fix the problem, making the atonement of Jesus applicable to our lives, enabling us to surrender all to God's Son.

So unregenerate people will enter into the Millennial Age, in my view, not to obtain a reward, but just to continue pursuing their purpose in life until they either embrace Christ or not. For the saints of this age, on the other hand, the Millennial Age is the beginning of eternity, and is indeed an eternal reward. I hope you can see how I see it differently from the way you're portraying it?



Yes, glorified saints enter into the Millennial Age as a reward. But as yet unregenerated mortals, people do not enter into that era *as a reward.* It is just a continuation of their lives following a world war. The change brought by Christ and the glorified saints from heaven are in evidence by the lack of satanic provocations among nations. But otherwise, the world continues as it always has. People will continue to hear the Gospel, because Christian nations will no longer be obstructed and misrepresented.

Anyway, no sense going on until you understand my point here? Agree or disagree, we will be arguing passed each other if you don't understand where I'm coming from in this regard.

Instead of always advocating what you imagine, address Scripture. Address what I presented. Your avoidance is getting old.
 
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