14 IRRESOLVABLE CONTRADICTIONS WHICH RESULT FROM A LITERAL RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

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MA2444

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You guys insist the Rich Man and Lazarus is a literal, real account of something that happened to dead people: Rich Man tormented in literal fire, a literal great gulf between the saved and lost, literal conversation between them, etc...and literal bodies with eyes, tongues, bosoms, fingers, right?

Not quite. I believe it is a parable that represents spiritual fact and reality.
 

Phoneman777

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I would recommend reading 1Enoch 22, a bit out of an extra-Biblical Hebrew book that was popular in the 1st century.

It has quite a bit to do with the Lazarus and the Rich Man. Jesus was clearly familiar with this writing, and may be riffing off of it when he tells this story.
I'll pass, thank you. I don't believe apocryphal books are inspired - the same conclusion which the Protestant Reformers came to once the 1000+ year papal ban on Scripture was discarded and the Bible was once again put into the language of the people.
 

Phoneman777

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Not quite. I believe it is a parable that represents spiritual fact and reality.
Parables must be INTERPRETED. When Jesus said the angels would come and "reap" the harvest fields and gather the "wheat" and burn the "tares" in the "harvest" - He was using SYMBOLIC elements to represent spiritual fact and reality - the Judgment.

The same holds true for the Rich Man and Lazarus parable: the Rich Man is symbolic, the table of blessing is symbolic, the crumbs falling under the table is symbolic, the dogs are symbolic, Lazarus is symbolic, the Rich Man's torment is symbolic, Abraham's bosom is symbolic, Moses and the Prophets is symbolic, etc.

Whatever all this means, it is NOT representative of what happens to people when we die no more than what Jesus said means angels are coming dressed in coveralls with sickles to mow down the fields.
 

Phoneman777

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I don't know for sure, but I doubt that Lazarus was a popular name. It's a Greek-ification of Hebrew Lo-Ezer which means "no help." Usually names mean positive things.
Doubt it...because Lazarus was abundantly blessed in the end. A better explanation is found by comparing two Bible verses:

1) Abraham's refusal to send Lazarus back from the dead to warn the brothers because "they have Moses and the Prophets...if they will not believe Moses and the Prophets, they will not believe, though one rose from the dead".

2) After Jesus resurrected Lazarus, the Jews "went away to take counsel on how they might destroy both Jesus and Lazarus".

From this comparison, a clear explanation emerges:

JESUS CHOSE THE NAME "LAZARUS" IN HIS PARABLE SO THAT LATER WHEN THE REAL MAN LAZARUS "ROSE FROM THE DEAD" AND THE JEWS CHOSE TO STUBBORNLY CONTINUED IN UNBELIEF INSTEAD OF REPENTING AND BELIEVING "MOSES AND THE PROPHETS" AKA "THE WORD OF GOD" - EVERYONE WOULD BE ABLE TO SEE WHAT HYPOCRITES WERE THESE WRETCHED JEWS.
 
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Wick Stick

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I'll pass, thank you. I don't believe apocryphal books are inspired - the same conclusion which the Protestant Reformers came to once the 1000+ year papal ban on Scripture was discarded and the Bible was once again put into the language of the people.
Suit yourself, but a book doesn't need to be inspired to learn something from it.

In the gospels, there's a ton of references to 1Enoch. Reading it would lead to a better understanding of the actual Bible.
 
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Taken

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It absolutely says they have eyes, tongues, fingers, bosoms, legs to carry a warning to the Rich Man's brother!
Scriptural Quote?
You Immortal Soul crowd folks
No one is saying “immortal” soul.
* Some souls, shall, remain alive forever…
They are called….Converted…SAVED!
* Other souls (not converted / not saved),
Shall have the “Breath of Life”, return to God, and the soul Destroyed.

* That occurs AFTER Judgement.

* Presently…All living souls DEPART their mortally Dead Body…
* Dead body, buried.
* Saved living soul escorted to Heaven to wait in Comfort, for Judgement.
* UnSaved living soul sent to Hell to wait in torments, for Judgement.

deny what's plainly written in red and white,
QUOTE, what you are talking about is plainly written.
but somehow are able to see "disembodied bodies" in the pages of Scripture while never actually sharing book, chapter, verse.
That is your claim.
Never heard of a disembodied BODY…0xymoron.
You guys insist the Rich Man and Lazarus is a literal, real account of something that happened to dead people:

No.
Departed Living Souls… not body’s.
Body’s were Buried.

Rich Man tormented in literal fire,
I didn’t say tormented in literal Fire.
I said flame. Have you never been near A burn fire / flame? It gives off HEAT!!
a literal great gulf between the saved and lost, literal conversation between them, etc...
Yes….less you think Jesus a LIAR!

Do you think Jesus a Liar?
You didn’t answer the question .
and literal bodies with eyes, tongues, bosoms, fingers, right?
Nope.
Why do you keep talking about BodY’s In Hell?
Have you Never Seen a Body Buried in a cemetery?
Six feet under IS NOT Hell!
So, where's the verse that identifies this "third category of body"
What are you talking about?

that in addition to Paul's two described in 2 Corinthians 5:1?

Look, the burden is on YOU guys - it is YOU who claim the Rich Man and Lazarus is a REAL LITERAL ACTUAL ACCOUNT and
deny the truth that it is a parable.


Oh , so since Jesus’ speech “is called” a parable…you think What Jesus said is NOT TRUE?
Do you not know, when ANYONE speaks something that is NOT true, It is called a LIE.

So are you claiming Jesus LIED?
Therefore, please show us the verse that teaches the dead receive a third category of body in addition to the two -
You show the verse, since that is your claim, not mine.
 
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ElieG12

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Based on what I've gathered from various believers, this location referred to as "Abraham's bosom" is said to be the destination for all of Jehovah's faithful servants prior to our era after their passing.

It's claimed that this place was vacated by Jesus Christ when he arrived there after his death and brought everyone with him to heaven at the time of his ascension.

It's important to note that not every believer who takes this illustration literally can convey the entire concept, as they recognize it lacks solid biblical backing. Those who advocate for this unusual teaching often manipulate certain passages to make them fit.

Did the ancient servants of God embrace this doctrine, or is it merely a construct of contemporary Christian theorists? We have previously established that the servants of God depicted in the Hebrew Scriptures did not subscribe to this belief.

Now consider: whose "bosom" was it before Abraham's existence? For instance, where were Abel, Enoch, Noah, and other devoted servants of God who passed away prior to Jehovah's covenant with Abraham regarding his descendants supposedly reveling? Or, where did those who worshiped God end up, yet were not Abraham's descendants, like his kin Nahor and his offspring, who remained in different territories and from whom the subsequent patriarchs selected their spouses?

It's noteworthy that one of these figures, Job, who was not a descendant of Abraham, did not hold the belief that he would enter a realm of pleasure after death:

Job 7:21 Why do you not pardon my transgression And excuse my error? For soon I will lie down in the dust, And you will look for me, but I will be gone.
 
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Taken

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Based on what I've gathered from various believers, this location referred to as "Abraham's bosom" is said to be the destination for all of Jehovah's faithful servants prior to our era after their passing.

It's claimed that this place was vacated by Jesus Christ when he arrived there after his death and brought everyone with him to heaven at the time of his ascension.

It's important to note that not every believer who takes this illustration literally can convey the entire concept, as they recognize it lacks solid biblical backing. Those who advocate for this unusual teaching often manipulate certain passages to make them fit.

Did the ancient servants of God embrace this doctrine, or is it merely a construct of contemporary Christian theorists? We have previously established that the servants of God depicted in the Hebrew Scriptures did not subscribe to this belief.

Now consider: whose "bosom" was it before Abraham's existence? For instance, where were Abel, Enoch, Noah, and other devoted servants of God who passed away prior to Jehovah's covenant with Abraham regarding his descendants supposedly reveling? Or, where did those who worshiped God end up, yet were not Abraham's descendants, like his kin Nahor and his offspring, who remained in different territories and from whom the subsequent patriarchs selected their spouses?

It's noteworthy that one of these figures, Job, who was not a descendant of Abraham, did not hold the belief that he would enter a realm of pleasure after death:

Job 7:21 Why do you not pardon my transgression And excuse my error? For soon I will lie down in the dust, And you will look for me, but I will be gone.

A human body is Formed…complete.
It’s LIFE is blood.

A form-ED body receives a SOUL from God.
It’s LIFE is Gods Breath.

A Natural human formed body, begins learning.
It’s MIND, can easily believe lies, wonder, doubt truths, and change often what it believes.

A natural human, “natural truth”, with a consistant Truth, “is the Natural SPIRIT of man”…. Which is his “true belief in his HEART”.

That natural truth / spirit in a man’s heart, is what God “circumcises”, before God gives that man, a new Seed (Gods seed), which rebirth a mans, Spiritual Spirit, and thereafter, Gods “Spirit of Truth”, dwell IN that man, called, “IN Christ”…
(saved soul, new Seed, new heart, Gods Spirit of Truth, (Jesus), Gods Spirit of Power (Christ)…keeps such a man WITH God Forever. OSAS.

Anciently men KNEW, human body’s dust of the Earth, their soul from God, dead bodies buried, return to Dust. Living souls depart dead bodies, with Abraham’s Soul in Comfort , as Abraham’s appointment was Father of many Nations
Unsaved Departed living souls wait in hell, in Torments for Judgement Day.

Yes, ancient men knew human body’s, ARE body, soul, spirit…three things.
The mortal body, that Shall Die.
The soul that will be saved or destroyed.
The spirit that will be born again or die with is mortal body.

When a body dies. It knows nothing…
However the departed living soul, knows everything the body knew.

If a departed soul returns to. dead Body, the body resumes living…as documented in Scripture…
And even today, some people are clinically pronounced Dead…yet revive, which some call a near death experience, but in fact they experienced death, their soul departed, their soul experience strange events, then returned to their body, and their body resume living.

Every departed living soul, shall return to its body for Judgement DAY otherwise …
How will every man SEE Jesus at His return, bend down their knee and worship Him?
No body, no knee to bend and bow!

All Scriptural Truths. A Study

Glory to God,
Taken
 

Phoneman777

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Suit yourself, but a book doesn't need to be inspired to learn something from it.

In the gospels, there's a ton of references to 1Enoch. Reading it would lead to a better understanding of the actual Bible.
True, there's certainly historical value to be had - however, when it comes to topics like "what happens when we die" such mysteries can only be solved with divinely inspired answers.
 

Phoneman777

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Scriptural Quote?
"And in hell he lift up his EYES, being in torments, and seeth Lazarus afar off..."
"...Lazarus in the BOSOM of Abraham".
"...dip his FINGER in water..."
"...cool my TONGUE for I am tormented in this flame."
"...send Lazarus that he may dip...send him to my father's house..." (both errands require LEGS)
Also, the Rich Man and Abraham well heard one another's words (which require EARS)
No one is saying “immortal” soul.
* Some souls, shall, remain alive forever…
They are called….Converted…SAVED!
* Other souls (not converted / not saved),
Shall have the “Breath of Life”, return to God, and the soul Destroyed.
How can a Soul continue to exist after death when Genesis 2:7 plainly says the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and Breath of Life?
* That occurs AFTER Judgement.

* Presently…All living souls DEPART their mortally Dead Body…
* Dead body, buried.
* Saved living soul escorted to Heaven to wait in Comfort, for Judgement.
* UnSaved living soul sent to Hell to wait in torments, for Judgement.


QUOTE, what you are talking about is plainly written.

That is your claim.
Never heard of a disembodied BODY…0xymoron.


No.
Departed Living Souls… not body’s.
Body’s were Buried.


I didn’t say tormented in literal Fire.
I said flame. Have you never been near A burn fire / flame? It gives off HEAT!!

Yes….less you think Jesus a LIAR!

Do you think Jesus a Liar?
You didn’t answer the question .

Nope.
Why do you keep talking about BodY’s In Hell?
Have you Never Seen a Body Buried in a cemetery?
Six feet under IS NOT Hell!

What are you talking about?




Oh , so since Jesus’ speech “is called” a parable…you think What Jesus said is NOT TRUE?
Do you not know, when ANYONE speaks something that is NOT true, It is called a LIE.

So are you claiming Jesus LIED?

You show the verse, since that is your claim, not mine.
The fact that 14 Irresolvable contradictions arise by making the passage literal proves it's a parable.

You STILL have yet to point to the verse which says dead people put a "disembodied body" while they're dead which would account for the eyes, ears, tongues, bosoms, etc. of the Rich Man and company.
 

David in NJ

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The "Rich Man" in the parable is probably a thinly veiled reference to Caiaphas, who was the high priest at the time.

This is why he wore "purple and linen," which is the Biblical dress of the high priest. This is why he makes reference to his "five brethren" as well - Caiaphas was one of 6 brothers who all famously served at one point or another in the capacity of high priest. They were all the sons of Annas (Hananiah) who himself served as high priest and afterward remained the most prominent power broker in Judea in the 1st century.
1.) References to the religious leaders is covered in the PARABLE of Luke 16:1-8

2.) The PARABLE ends in verse 9 and the LORD begins expounding on the parable in versus 9-13

3.) JESUS is speaking LITERALLY here and continues in LITERAL dialogue = no more parables given in this chapter.

4.) Versus 19-31 are the LITERAL OUTCOME of the PARABLE in versus 1-8.

5.) This is the STANDARD by which the LORD Spoke = Give a parable and then expound with the LITERAL, when HE desires to do so.
 

Taken

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"And in hell he lift up his EYES, being in torments, and seeth Lazarus afar off..."
"...Lazarus in the BOSOM of Abraham".
"...dip his FINGER in water..."
"...cool my TONGUE for I am tormented in this flame."
"...send Lazarus that he may dip...send him to my father's house..." (both errands require LEGS)
Also, the Rich Man and Abraham well heard one another's words (which require EARS)

How can a Soul continue to exist after death when Genesis 2:7 plainly says the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and Breath of Life?

The fact that 14 Irresolvable contradictions arise by making the passage literal proves it's a parable.

You STILL have yet to point to the verse which says dead people put a "disembodied body" while they're dead which would account for the eyes, ears, tongues, bosoms, etc. of the Rich Man and company.
The Soul is Not the BODY!!!
The life of the Body is it’s Blood.
The Life of the Soul is Gods Breath.

Didn’t you read…the quote sent you?

1 Thes 5:
[23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Don’t you understand when a body DIES, Gods Life in the Soul Does NOT Die?

The living Soul departs out of a DEAD Body.

The Body returns to the EARTH, from whence it came.

The Living SOUL (if Saved) goes to heaven, to Rest In Peace and comfort, waiting For Judgement Day.

The Living SOUL (if NOT Saved), goes to Hell, Separated From God, no rest, no comfort, smells putrid, burning flames, hot, no sunny blue Sky’s, no beautiful flowers and landscape, dreary, no relief, no escape…

And Yes, departed souls see, speak, hear, smell, taste, feel …. Without a Flesh Body!

Didn’t you read the Case of a young boy who died, and God returned his soul to him and his body resumed living? 1 Kings 17: whole chapter for context.

Dead Human Body’s DO NOT Go to Hell!

Have you never heard people say…
God rest a dead mans
soul?

You think Dead Bodys are “resting”?
They are Rotting, decaying, decomposing!

A babe in the Womb, sees, hears, smells, feels, Nothing, and utters no sounds….until they are Born and Receive a soul from God….
Then do those “communication” skills begin developing….
Then … being separated from its mother, it is. A Person., a person is an alive Body AND alive Soul in the Body.
Dead men are not called, Persons.

And the “spirit of man” is a whole other “thing” aside from a mans body and soul.
(1Thes 5:23)

With God Forever…
Body must Die.
Soul must be Saved (ie. Restored)
Spirit must be Quickened (born gain) of Gods Seed.
Then Shall that body be Risen up Glorified, Holy, sinless, and it’s Soul and Spirit returned to “THAT” glorified body, and With God Forever…even to SEE Him “As He IS”…Spirit.

This is Basic Scriptural Knowledge from Study, regarding the Whole of manKIND.
 
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Taken

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PARABLE

In common use language a parable is a fanciful fictious “story” to reveal a truth lesson.

Jesus spoke in Parables.
Not a shock, it was Fortold He would teach in Parables.

CLEVER…one Speech for ANY listener…
Believer or Skeptic or Denier.


Many walked away, saying Jesus was just a story-teller (and some today will attempt to Argue Jesus was simply telling a fictious story to make a point.

However….Some People Believe Jesus IS the TRUTH and “CAN NOT Lie”… which means…
It has no baring WHAT His style of teaching IS called…Every word Jesus uttered is Absolute Truth…Period.

Hear, study, trust, believe…or not.’it will only affect you…to reject Jesus IS the Truth, can Not Lie…regardless of what Webster called a Parable.

Just saying…God works in mysterious Ways…
One speech for the Believer and Another speech for the Denier? Nope.
 
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Wick Stick

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True, there's certainly historical value to be had - however, when it comes to topics like "what happens when we die" such mysteries can only be solved with divinely inspired answers.
The point here is just that Jesus' story uses Enoch's cosmology as its setting.

Now, does that constitute an endorsement of that cosmology? Or, is it more like writing a fanfiction that's set in someone else's already-established world? I lean towards the former, because Hebrews and Revelation ALSO make reference to this same chapter of Enoch. Your mileage may vary

But one thing is for certain - Jesus point here was NOT to teach us what happens after we die and before the Judgment. So we might all be overthinking it.
 

Hobie

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Not quite. I believe it is a parable that represents spiritual fact and reality.
Christ had to use parables as the people were for the most part like the disciples in their lot. As for the pharisees, they shut their ears and refused to listen to what He laid out, so it was more for the simple and common folk.

Matthew 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
 
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Phoneman777

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1 Thes 5:
[23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Don’t you understand when a body DIES, Gods Life in the Soul Does NOT Die?
You're reading this wrong because you REFUSE to allow Genesis 2:7 KJV to inform you that the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and Breath of Life.

Body + Breath of Life = LIVING Soul

Body - Breath of Life = DEAD Soul

Can light continue to exist when electricity is removed from the bulb? Neither can the Soul continue to exist when the Body and Breath of Life separate at death.

"...you whole Spirit and Soul and Body be preserved blameless" is an expression of Paul's desire that the two parts (Body and Breath aka Spirit) and the whole (Soul) remain free from sin.
The living Soul departs out of a DEAD Body.
Does light "depart" from a bulb as a floating luminescent orb when the electricity is switched off...or does it CEASE TO EXIST?
The Living SOUL (if Saved) goes to heaven, to Rest In Peace and comfort, waiting For Judgement Day.
How can that Soul continue to exist if the Soul only exists as a consequence of the union of the Body and Breath of Life? It can't!
The Living SOUL (if NOT Saved), goes to Hell, Separated From God, no rest, no comfort, smells putrid, burning flames, hot, no sunny blue Sky’s, no beautiful flowers and landscape, dreary, no relief, no escape…
No it doesn't!

Peter plainly tells you the Lord plan is "to reserve the unjust unto the day of Judgment to be punished".

Three times, Peter says the punishment is future - not at death!
And Yes, departed souls see, speak, hear, smell, taste, feel …. Without a Flesh Body!
No they can't! The Scriptures repeatedly declare the dead know nothing, feel nothing, see nothing, remember nothing, say/hear nothing, plan nothing, accomplish nothing, praise nothing, nor have anything more to do with anything done under this sun.

***ATTENTION***
NO WHERE ARE ANY OF THESE STATEMENTS FRAMED SO AS TO REFER ONLY TO "DEAD BODIES" - these verses speak of the "dead" meaning the "entire dead person" - not just the "body".
Didn’t you read the Case of a young boy who died, and God returned his soul to him and his body resumed living? 1 Kings 17: whole chapter for context.
I've told you repeated "nephesh" either refers to "creature" or "life" - never a "disembodied spirit" that departs the body per Genesis 2:7 KJV. You who claim that happens flat out ignore Genesis 2:7 KJV and pretend it doesn't exist.
They are Rotting, decaying, decomposing!
You're correct.
A babe in the Womb, sees, hears, smells, feels, Nothing, and utters no sounds….until they are Born and Receive a soul from God….
STOP WITH THIS "RECEIVES A SOUL FROM GOD" BUSINESS. Genesis 2:7 KJV says what the Body receives is the Breath of Life - and the two combine to PRODUCE a Soul.
Soul must be Saved (ie. Restored)
Yes, the "whole creature" (soul) must be saved - not a poltergiest.
 

Taken

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You're reading this wrong because you REFUSE to allow Genesis 2:7 KJV to inform you that the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and Breath of Life.

Body + Breath of Life = LIVING Soul

Body - Breath of Life = DEAD Soul
Scripture does NOT say WHEN a soul “comes into Existence”.

Scripture informs the reader…”ALL souls belong to God.”

Scripture informs the reader…”the Life in EVERY Soul, is “Gods Breath of LIFE”.

Scripture informs the reader…once God Forms the Body….He Blows into that Body…
A soul, with Gods Breath of Life.

Scripture informs the reader…a formed Body, having received “Gods “soul” ; With Gods Breath of Life…IS;
A Living Body, whose LIFE is Blood,
And A Living Soul, whose LIFE is Gods Breath.

Scripture informs the reader…God Creates AND Makes.
The Creation was established, completed in 6 days.
The Making Begins…when the Body is being Formed.
The Making continues when that Body receives a soul with Gods Breath of LIFE.

The reader is informed…the LIFE is Named JESUS.

The reader is informed…nothing that was/is Made …Was / Is Made without the Maker; the Word of God…Jesus.

Nothing new under the Sun.
What was Before, Continues.
ManKind…waits to SEE, what will Be.

Some men Trust to Believe Prophecy, Before it comes to pass.

Gods Breath…IS Life.
Gods Breath…IN all souls, IS Gods LIFE.
Blood is the Life….Of the Body.
All Body’s shall, must DIE.
The LIFE in the Body…That DIES, Does NOT Affect Gods “living souls” with His Breath of Life, in the soul…..

Until Judgement Day!!

At Judgement…
All Living Souls ARE Judged.
* UN saved Living souls SHALL have Its LIFE return to God, and that soul Destroyed and Forgotten.
* SAVED Living souls SHALL remain Living and Impart into it’s MADE, holy, righteous, risen glorified Body.

Gods Breath of Life is Alive in Every single soul…IN its living Body, or Departed out of its Dead Body….with God in Heaven in comfort…or IN Hell in the torments of Discomfort.
 

Taken

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Can light continue to exist when electricity is removed from the bulb? Neither can the Soul continue to exist when the Body and Breath of Life separate at death.
The Body, is Already Judged.
The Sentence, is it mush Shall Die.

Soul have Not been Judged.
However Scripture informs the reader…
The consequence, for a living soul, that did not become Saved.
Judgement will be pronounced on Judgement Day.
Sentencing will follow after the Judgement.
The Sentencing is revealed in Scripture.
An unsaved Living soul, shall become MADE a soul “without Life”, because It’s Life; Gods Breath, shall (Not Die), but return to God.
That lifeless soul shall BE Destroyed.

That soul is NOT call “Dead”.
For “something Living” to become DEAD, the Life IN the Living thing, must DIE.

The Life in a soul, is not mans, it Can Not Die. The Life in the soul IS Gods breath. It doesn’t DIE, it returns to God.

Body’s are Mortal, it’s Life Blood, meaning, The Life of the Body (Blood) Must Die, thus the Body is called Dead.

All souls belong to God. A souls Life does NOT Die.
 

Taken

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How can that Soul continue to exist if the Soul only exists as a consequence of the union of the Body and Breath of Life? It can't!

You are making a “presumption” of “When” God created “souls”.

Scripture Informs the reader God created all He created in 6 days and when.( the Beginning of His Creation).

When God “gives a formed born body a soul…that does not determine the “existance” of the soul….it merely determines when a body receives a soul from God.

And How can a Soul live Without being in a Body?….simple…the souls LIFE is Gods Breath….not a mans Life.