14 IRRESOLVABLE CONTRADICTIONS WHICH RESULT FROM A LITERAL RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

[keithr]

I understand your point….and it makes Jesus a fabricator, a liar!

A made up (fabricated, imagined) story is not a lie. A dictionary definition of a story is:

The telling of a happening or connected series of happenings, whether true or fictitious (Webster New World College Dictionary)​

Jesus Did Not make up stories.
Made up Stories ARE deceit, fabrication, Not Truths!

Made up stories are not deceitful (as long as it's clear that it is just a story). Most people when they hear somebody singing a song would not call them a liar - they would understand that the words of the song are not (usually) telling a true story. An emotive story or song may bring you to tears, because of your understanding of the human emotions told by the words. They can be useful life lessons for us. Just because they not telling of events that actually happened to specific persons doesn't mean that the stories/songs should be avoided and considered lies and deceit.

Jesus told many parables, mainly about the kingdom of God, and parables are made up stories - Mark 4:34 (WEB):

(34) Without a parable he didn’t speak to them; but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.​

Some dictionary definitions of a parable:

A short, simple story, usually of an occurrence of a familiar kind, from which a moral or religious lesson may be drawn.​

​

a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.​

(A designed story is a made up story.)​

​

a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.​

An allegory is:

a representation of an abstract or spiritual meaning through concrete or material forms; figurative treatment of one subject under the guise of another.​

​

a symbolical narrative​

Matthew 13:10-16

(10) The disciples came, and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?”​

(11) He answered them, “To you it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but it is not given to them.​

(12) For whoever has, to him will be given, and he will have abundance, but whoever doesn’t have, from him will be taken away even that which he has.​

(13) Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they don’t see, and hearing, they don’t hear, neither do they understand.​

(14) In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says, ‘By hearing you will hear, and will in no way understand; Seeing you will see, and will in no way perceive:​

(15) for this people’s heart has grown callous, their ears are dull of hearing, they have closed their eyes; or else perhaps they might perceive with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and would turn again; and I would heal them.’​

(16) “But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear.​

Just because some people cannot understand the meaning of the parables that Jesus spoke, that doesn't mean that Jesus was being decietful or lying.

Fabrication is Not Truth!

Telling a fictional story to teach something is not lying.

 

[Taken]

A made up (fabricated, imagined) story is not a lie. A dictionary definition of a story is:

A “made up” story IS: fabricated, NOT True.

A Parable traditionally is a manner of Speech that typically uses a “made up” scenario to make a TRUE Point….of Typically a Moral Lesson.

So when men in Scripture use Parables to teach their clansmen;

Or A parent or School teacher uses a Parable to teach Children a Lesson;

Okay…no problem.

When THE SPEAKER IS JESUS…
For anyone “WHO”, knows, believes, trusts…
Jesus IS the All knowing Truth…
Jesus Can Not Lie…
That same Person knows, believes, trusts Every word Jesus Spoke IS True…. Period.

As well, an adult individual Should Know…the opposite of Truth IS a Lie.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You are the one with the Problem.

I have a problem with you saying that I claimed that Jesus lied, which I never did. You are lying by saying that.

I know. And disagree with you that that is what Jesus Did!

Shsssh…for the umpteenth time…YES, I disagree.

So, I will assume then that you think the virgins in the Matthew 25:1-13 refer to 10 actual people and that the fishermen in Matthew 13:47-50 refer to actual people and so on.

I understand your point….and it makes Jesus a fabricator, a liar! Which is False.

No, it does not! That's foolish to say that. That's like saying people who write fictional novels or fictional scripts for TV shows or movies are liars because they made up stories. You are equating allegories with lies. Total nonsense!

You say Jesus speaker the Truth…
Then you say Jesus “Made up” Stories….
…Astounding!

Stories/Allegories to illustrate truth! What is hard to understand about that? You're probably the only one on the entire forum who can't understand such a simple concept. That is what is astounding here!

Jesus IS the Truth.

Of course. I never said otherwise. But, being the liar that you are, you are trying to make it as if I did say that.

Jesus Did Not make up stories.

He did. Unless you think that the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13 are real people? Is that what you believe?

Made up Stories ARE deceit, fabrication, Not Truths!

So, you are saying allegories are "deceit, fabrication" which is just plain stupid.

You are the one with a comprehension problem.

What am I not comprehending exactly?

Opposites DO Not Mean the same thing!

Of course. And I'm not saying that. Only your imaginary straw man is saying that.

Fabrication is Not Truth!

Do you think allegories represent truth or are they just lies?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A “made up” story IS: fabricated, NOT True.

But, that doesn't mean it represents something that is not true. Or do you think that all allegories are deceitful?

A Parable traditionally is a manner of Speech that typically uses a “made up” scenario to make a TRUE Point….of Typically a Moral Lesson.

Hello? Wake up. this is exactly what I've been saying and you keep disagreeing with me! LOL!!!

So when men in Scripture use Parables to teach their clansmen;

Or A parent or School teacher uses a Parable to teach Children a Lesson;

Okay…no problem.

No problem except when someone says that Jesus does that same thing? Is that what you're saying? If so, why is it okay for men in scripture, parents or teachers to do that, but not Jesus?

When THE SPEAKER IS JESUS…
For anyone “WHO”, knows, believes, trusts…
Jesus IS the All knowing Truth…
Jesus Can Not Lie…
That same Person knows, believes, trusts Every word Jesus Spoke IS True…. Period.

A made up scenario is not a lie. It could be, but in Jesus's parables they represent truth and fit the definition of a parable that you gave earlier, which was "a manner of Speech that typically uses a “made up” scenario to make a TRUE Point….of Typically a Moral Lesson.".

As well, an adult individual Should Know…the opposite of Truth IS a Lie.

No kidding. Who is saying otherwise?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

A made up (fabricated, imagined) story is not a lie. A dictionary definition of a story is:

The telling of a happening or connected series of happenings, whether true or fictitious (Webster New World College Dictionary)​

Made up stories are not deceitful (as long as it's clear that it is just a story). Most people when they hear somebody singing a song would not call them a liar - they would understand that the words of the song are not (usually) telling a true story. An emotive story or song may bring you to tears, because of your understanding of the human emotions told by the words. They can be useful life lessons for us. Just because they not telling of events that actually happened to specific persons doesn't mean that the stories/songs should be avoided and considered lies and deceit.

Jesus told many parables, mainly about the kingdom of God, and parables are made up stories - Mark 4:34 (WEB):

(34) Without a parable he didn’t speak to them; but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.​

Some dictionary definitions of a parable:

A short, simple story, usually of an occurrence of a familiar kind, from which a moral or religious lesson may be drawn.​

​

a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.​

(A designed story is a made up story.)​

​

a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.​

An allegory is:

a representation of an abstract or spiritual meaning through concrete or material forms; figurative treatment of one subject under the guise of another.​

​

a symbolical narrative​

Matthew 13:10-16

(10) The disciples came, and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?”​

(11) He answered them, “To you it is given to know the mysteries of the Kingdom of Heaven, but it is not given to them.​

(12) For whoever has, to him will be given, and he will have abundance, but whoever doesn’t have, from him will be taken away even that which he has.​

(13) Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they don’t see, and hearing, they don’t hear, neither do they understand.​

(14) In them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says, ‘By hearing you will hear, and will in no way understand; Seeing you will see, and will in no way perceive:​

(15) for this people’s heart has grown callous, their ears are dull of hearing, they have closed their eyes; or else perhaps they might perceive with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their heart, and would turn again; and I would heal them.’​

(16) “But blessed are your eyes, for they see; and your ears, for they hear.​

Just because some people cannot understand the meaning of the parables that Jesus spoke, that doesn't mean that Jesus was being decietful or lying.


Telling a fictional story to teach something is not lying.

I agree, but what you're saying here is a very simple concept that everyone here on this forum easily understands except for one person.

 

[Taken]

@Spiritual Israelite

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@Spiritual Israelite

Why the sad face, buddy? You don't like that I get upset when you wickedly and dishonestly try to claim that I said Jesus lied?

 

[Taken]

But, that doesn't mean it represents something that is not true.

So? Who said otherwise?

Hello? Wake up. this is exactly what I've been saying and you keep disagreeing with me! LOL!!!

Hello wake up …
Every time you say Jesus made up stories, I disagree with you.! Ugh!

No problem except when someone says that Jesus does that same thing? Is that what you're saying? If so, why is it okay for men in scripture, parents or teachers to do that, but not Jesus?

People LIE !
Jesus does Not Lie.

A made up scenario is not a lie.

Wow ! Astounding.

Try looking up the meaning of “made up”!

Then review…
John 14:
[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

How can the Truth speak a non truth?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Hello wake up …
Every time you say Jesus made up stories, I disagree with you.! Ugh!

So, please help me understand what you mean by that then. Is that okay with you? Does this mean you are saying that, for example, in the parable of the ten virgins, that He was talking about ten actual people and that it is not a made up story about ten virgins that aren't actual people but instead figuratively represent certain types of people in reality?

People LIE !
Jesus does Not Lie.

Why are you telling me this as if I ever said otherwise?

Wow ! Astounding.

Try looking up the meaning of “made up”!

No, you need to do that. When you read a fictional novel or watch a fictional TV show or movie, what you're reading or seeing was made up in someone's mind, right? Does that mean what you're reading or seeing are lies?

 

[Taken]

So, please help me understand what you mean by that then. Is that okay with you? Does this mean you are saying that, for example, in the parable of the ten virgins, that He was talking about ten actual people and that it is not a made up story about ten virgins that aren't actual people but instead figuratively represent certain types of people in reality?


Why are you telling me this as if I ever said otherwise?


No, you need to do that. When you read a fictional novel or watch a fictional TV show or movie, what you're reading or seeing was made up in someone's mind, right? Does that mean what you're reading or seeing are lies?

Made up Is fiction, no basis in fact, invented… are you seriously without understanding, NOT True, is False, a Lie?

You read one of Jesus’ Parables And say oh, this part is True…then say oh, you don’t think that part is True.

THAT is exactly WHY Jesus taught to Masses, hundreds, thousands of People….
IN Parables.

And what Happened?
People (like you), who pick and choose what part of Jesus’ speech to believe…we’re also the same who walked away, saying Jesus was “Just” a story teller…no one signifiant.

Others who believed that Jesus IS the Truth, that there was no deceit or Lie in His mouth, Believed Every Word He said, and Followed Him.

One Speech…and The People Divided “themselves”.
( Convient for the Lord when He comes to Redeem who is with and without Him.!)

So, the disciples Asked Jesus…Why He spoke In Parables…and Jesus Answered:

Matt: 13:

[9] Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
[10] And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
[11] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
[12] For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
[13] Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

What did they Not Understand?
Same as you are trying to argue, you saying that “Jesus made up stories”

Jesus IS the Truth.
He can Not Speak what Is Not True!

Same As I have said to you.
Same I disagreed with you saying…
“ Jesus ‘Made up” stories that were Not True! “

 

[keithr]

Made up Is fiction, no basis in fact, invented… are you seriously without understanding, NOT True, is False, a Lie?

A dictionary definition of a lie is:

To present false information with the intention of deceiving.​

Jesus telling a parable (a made-up story, allegory) is not intended to deceive, so it is not a lie.

 

[Taken]

A dictionary definition of a lie is:

To present false information with the intention of deceiving.​

Jesus telling a parable (a made-up story, allegory) is not intended to deceive, so it is not a lie.

A non truth is … a lie.
Intent to deceive…?
Deception is the result of a lie, intended or not.
Intent to deceive, is Wicked / Evil.
Lying without intent to deceive, is sharing inaccurate information.

 

[keithr]

A non truth is … a lie.

A parable is a made-up story, a work of the imagination. It is neither true nor a lie; it is an imaginary story designed to illustrate or teach some truth. Here are two examples, Matthew 13:44-46 (WEB):

(44) “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like treasure hidden in the field, which a man found, and hid. In his joy, he goes and sells all that he has, and buys that field.​

​

(45) “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who is a merchant seeking fine pearls,​

(46) who having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it.​

In these examples Jesus is saying (from Barnes' Notes):

The gospel is more valuable than such a treasure, Psa_19:10; Pro_3:13-15. It is hidden from most people. When a person sees it and hears it, it is his duty to sacrifice all that hinders his obtaining it, and to seek it with the earnestness with which other people seek for gold. The truth often lies buried: it is like rich veins of ore in the sacred Scriptures; it must be searched out with diligence, and its discovery will repay a man for all his sacrifices, Luk_14:33; Php_3:8.​

or F. B. Meyers comments:

The parables of treasure and pearl are a pair. They describe the various ways we come to know God’s truth. Some happen on it suddenly. They are pursuing the ordinary vocations of life when suddenly the ploughshare rings against a box of buried treasure. The husbandman is suddenly rich beyond his dreams.​

​

But in other cases religion is the result of diligent search. Man cannot be happy without God. He goes from philosophy to philosophy, from system to system, turning over the pearls on the dealer’s trays; but suddenly his listlessness is transformed to eagerness as he discovers the Christ. Here is the pearl of great price. He has sought and found, and is prepared to renounce all. See Php_3:7. Is there not, too, a deep sense in which Jesus has renounced all, that He might purchase for Himself the Church, His bride? He is the merchant, and we the pearl, though only in His eyes-the eyes of love-could we be held worthy of all that He surrendered to win us!​

If you believe that telling a parable is lying then it is you that is accusing Jesus of lying. Everybody else understands that Jesus was telling a fictious story, an invented event to help explain something else.

 

[Taken]

A parable is a made-up story, a work of the imagination. It is neither true nor a lie; it is an imaginary story designed to illustrate or teach some truth. Here are two examples, Matthew 13:44-46 (WEB):

(44) “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like treasure hidden in the field, which a man found, and hid. In his joy, he goes and sells all that he has, and buys that field.​

​

(45) “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who is a merchant seeking fine pearls,​

(46) who having found one pearl of great price, he went and sold all that he had, and bought it.​

In these examples Jesus is saying (from Barnes' Notes):

The gospel is more valuable than such a treasure, Psa_19:10; Pro_3:13-15. It is hidden from most people. When a person sees it and hears it, it is his duty to sacrifice all that hinders his obtaining it, and to seek it with the earnestness with which other people seek for gold. The truth often lies buried: it is like rich veins of ore in the sacred Scriptures; it must be searched out with diligence, and its discovery will repay a man for all his sacrifices, Luk_14:33; Php_3:8.​

or F. B. Meyers comments:

The parables of treasure and pearl are a pair. They describe the various ways we come to know God’s truth. Some happen on it suddenly. They are pursuing the ordinary vocations of life when suddenly the ploughshare rings against a box of buried treasure. The husbandman is suddenly rich beyond his dreams.​

​

But in other cases religion is the result of diligent search. Man cannot be happy without God. He goes from philosophy to philosophy, from system to system, turning over the pearls on the dealer’s trays; but suddenly his listlessness is transformed to eagerness as he discovers the Christ. Here is the pearl of great price. He has sought and found, and is prepared to renounce all. See Php_3:7. Is there not, too, a deep sense in which Jesus has renounced all, that He might purchase for Himself the Church, His bride? He is the merchant, and we the pearl, though only in His eyes-the eyes of love-could we be held worthy of all that He surrendered to win us!​

If you believe that telling a parable is lying then it is you that is accusing Jesus of lying. Everybody else understands that Jesus was telling a fictious story, an invented event to help explain something else.

If you believe Parables are all Truth, you would be mistaken.

If you believe a Non Truth, is Not a lie, you would be mistaken.

It matters NOT what Jesus “style of Speech is Called”…He could Not Lie. He could Not speak what is Not True.

 

[keithr]

If you believe Parables are all Truth, you would be mistaken.

If you believe a Non Truth, is Not a lie, you would be mistaken.

It matters NOT what Jesus “style of Speech is Called”…He could Not Lie. He could Not speak what is Not True.

Therefore when Jesus told parables, which are made-up stories, he was not lying. There's no more that needs to be said about it. Parables are not records of events that actually took place at some time and place. You are wrong to insist that the events and places described in parables are real places and events, and foolish to base your doctinal beliefs on parables - that's not what they're intended for, they're more for teaching people how to behave and to explain what God's Kingdom is like.

 

[Taken]

Therefore when Jesus told parables, which are made-up stories, he was not lying. There's no more that needs to be said about it. Parables are not records of events that actually took place at some time and place. You are wrong to insist that the events and places described in parables are real places and events, and foolish to base your doctinal beliefs on parables - that's not what they're intended for, they're more for teaching people how to behave and to explain what God's Kingdom is like.

When….When…a created Human speaks and tells a Fabricated, Made up (Not True), story, to make a True teaching point, moral truth….
The “story” is Not True.
The “Moral Point” Is True.
That IS the “meaning” of “a Parable.”

Now…Consider…”WHO” is Speaking.

Is the Speaker…a created Earthly Terrestrial man, who can tell (non truths), to tell a fabricated Story, to make a moral Point?

OR

Is the Speaker, the Non- Created, Son of God, with no deceit in His mouth, who IS called “THE TRUTH”, Knows All Things, and can NOT speak what IS Not True…(regardless of WHAT manner or style His “speech is called”.)

You should have Concluded…
The All Knowing Truth, can Not, does Not, speak forth “Anything” that is NOT True.

You should “commonly know”, “MADE UP”, by definition means “fabricated, Not True.”

You should “commonly know”…Non truths ARE LIES.

Human men, know Not All things. They LIE, intentionally and unintentionally.

The Lord God Almighty, IS all knowing, And “Can Not Lie”.

Every Word the Lord Jesus spoke, was TRUTH, as He IS Called.

It matters NOT, if Human men Believe Him or Not.
The “consequence For Human men” who “Reject” The Lord God, “or Trust” the Lord God, has already been Decided AND Revealed.

* Seems Some…want to Argue…Jesus made up stories…but it’s okay, because He was making a Good moral point.

* And some want to argue A fabricated story IS Not Lying.

** Both side tracking and Irrelevant, excuses.

Bottom Line .

Each individual has to decide”IF” the Lord Jesus could / did speak “Anything” that was “NOT True…..or “NOT”.

 

[keithr]

The All Knowing Truth, can Not, does Not, speak forth “Anything” that is NOT True.

(Technically Jesus is not all-knowing - Mark 13:32 (WEB):

(32) But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.​

but let's not digress!)

You haven't eaten Jesus' flesh nor drank his blood, so you are dead (no life in you); or was Jesus lying when he said, John 6:53-56 (WEB):

(53) Jesus therefore said to them, “Most certainly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don’t have life in yourselves.​

(54) He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.​

(55) For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.​

(56) He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood lives in me, and I in him.​

You should “commonly know”…Non truths ARE LIES.

You should know, considering I already pointed out the dictionary definition, that a lie is something that is not true and is presented to deliberately mislead and deceive. If I said "Today is Tuesday" when in fact it is Wednesday, that is not a lie if I did not intend to deceive you; it would simply be an error or mistake. Likewise a fabricated story, such as the parable of a rich man and a leprous beggar, is not intended to deceive, so it is not a lie.

 

[soberxp]

(Technically Jesus is not all-knowing - Mark 13:32 (WEB):

(32) But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.​

but let's not digress!)

He already knows.so Jesus is all-knowing now.

Roll on the floor

 

[Taken]

(Technically Jesus is not all-knowing - Mark 13:32 (WEB):

(32) But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.​

but let's not digress!)

Chronically, more and more is revealed about Jesus.
From He unknown, His name unknown, Son of man, Son of God, He is the Way, Truth, Life, Maker Revealed, He is The Christ all knowing Revealed, Christ IS the Wisdom, Power, Seed, Truth, Word, Life, Maker, All knowing.

John 16:
[30] Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

When knowledge is Secret from mankind, it is Only for God to Know….
When knowledge IS revealed to manKind, it IS for manKind to know.

It is the individuals prerogative to Believe it or not.

You haven't eaten Jesus' flesh nor drank his blood, so you are dead (no life in you); or was Jesus lying when he said, John 6:53-56 (WEB):

It matters not What the Food or Drink IS…it is a Provision from the Lord God, that He is Remembered and Thanked.
Eat Jesus’ Flesh? What is His Flesh? —->
The Word of God.
Drink Jesus’ Blood? What is His Blood?—->
Atonement.

Every day His Provisions satisfies my Natural Flesh with nourishment….
AND
Via His Spirit IN me, Satisfies my Daily Spiritual nourishment.

You should know, considering I already pointed out the dictionary definition, that a lie is something that is not true and is presented to deliberately mislead and deceive. If I said "Today is Tuesday" when in fact it is Wednesday, that is not a lie if I did not intend to deceive you; it would simply be an error or mistake. Likewise a fabricated story, such as the parable of a rich man and a leprous beggar, is not intended to deceive, so it is not a lie.

Jesus can not Lie.
Lie is the opposite of Truth.
Fabricated made up stories are Not Truths.

Are you really having Difficulty believing Jesus did NOT make up fabricated stories?

So did a lot of people who walked away and had no intent to Believe Him.

 

[keithr]

Eat Jesus’ Flesh? What is His Flesh? —->
The Word of God.
Drink Jesus’ Blood? What is His Blood?—->
Atonement.

So when Jesus said "Most certainly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you don’t have life in yourselves", according to you he was not telling the truth, for this figure of speech, just like the parable in Luke 16, was not literally true.

Are you really having Difficulty believing Jesus did NOT make up fabricated stories?

Yes, because it is very evident that he did make up stories, e.g. Matthew 13:24-25 (WEB):

(24) He set another parable before them, saying, “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field,​

(25) but while people slept, his enemy came and sowed darnel weeds also among the wheat, and went away.​

etc.​

Then, of course, there is the parable of the rich man and the poor man in Luke 16, which is clearly made up, and makes use of the false ideas that the Pharisees borrowed and believed from Greek mythology and their false belief that Abraham was alive and in paradise, despite the Scriptures saying that nobody will live again until the still future resurrection. Jesus included in the parable things which the Pharisees believed, but they were not true. He conveyed the message using things the people he was talking to believed and understood, even though they were not true.

I think we've spent more than enough time arguing about the meaning of English words - let's stop now. 2 Timothy 2:14 (WEB):

(14) Remind them of these things, charging them in the sight of the Lord, that they don’t argue about words, to no profit, to the subverting of those who hear.​