14 IRRESOLVABLE CONTRADICTIONS WHICH RESULT FROM A LITERAL RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

[Taken]

With all due respect, all you post is opinion - with no substantiating texts. I post verses:

I post my belief.
You can ask for any script you do not know or can find to verify in scripture to parallel any point.

"And the Lord God formed man of the Dust of the Ground (Body), breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life (Spirit) and man BECAME a living Soul".

Yes. Two distinct points that you omitted the conjunctive “and”.
1)A form, from dust, called a body, a man.
The Body’s LIFE BLOOD.
The Man’s LIFE IS BLOOD.
AND[
2)A breath of Life from God INTO the body.

So where IS THE Breath of Life God Blows INTO the nostrils of a mans BODY?

* Did YOU Breath that Breath of Life From God, Back out of your Body?
* Where Specifically IS That LIFE God Blows INTO The nostrils of A mans Body?
* IF the mans BODY’S LIFE is Called BLOOD…
(Which I Did show you in Scripture, that IS True.)
* What, IS “THAT” particular LIFE God blows INTO a mans Nostrils “Called”?

Do you know?
Can You Answer?

Two undeniable truths are these:

1) The Soul comes into existence only as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life (and therefore must go out of existence at the disunion of the same).

Scripture says Nothing whatsoever…of WHEN a Soul “comes INTO” Existance.

Scripture Reveals…
* All Souls belong To God.
* The Life IN the SOUL is Gods Breath.
* God blows INTO a mans Nostrils a Soul , with Gods Breath, and the man Becomes A living Man, Via A Living Soul.

* God Created the male and female manKIND, and Name “THEM”… ADAM .

* Your parents likely “named” you.
* You NAME, (regardless of Nick-names, titles, descriptions), your legal NAME, becomes The “Recorded” ( in Gods books and records) The Official Name of your …
Body, AND “Gods Soul” He Blew Into your Body.

You thereafter, (because “Gods Soul” is “IN” your body), can Possessively call the Soul In your body… as my, mine.

Whatever your BODY does, or does NOT think, believe, do…Will “positively or negatively” Affect the Soul with/in your body.”.

Since your body was naturally Born…without knowing, believing IN the Lord God….
OOPS…you were naturally BORN AGAINST God…

* Against God IS SIN Against God.

OOPS…That Breath of Life In Gods Soul, God blew INTO you body, immediately becomes “corrupted”, being in your Body that is (SIN) Against God.

What are you going to do About that dilemma?

Learn About God?
Learn He has an Order, Way, Offering you can Freely Take…?
To Have “the Soul” IN your Body, Forgiven it’s Sin Against God, and that Soul “Restored” back to “Very Good”, as it was when God Blew “HIS” soul into you Body?

And what is that choice and gesture Called?

“Salvation”

And what does “Salvation” mean?

Do you know?
Can you answer?

2) Man BECAME a living Soul.
(It doesn't say man was "given" a Soul or "a Soul was breathed" into him - it says man BECAME a Soul

Man is a Body.
Did you Stop being a BODY because “you BECAME” A Living soul?

Do tell
Explain.

Since for example…
A man Can See, he BECOMES Blind.
He no longer Can See.

Is that your point you are no longer a MAN, A Body, because you “BECAME” a living soul?

IS your BODY now…A SOUL?

 

[Hobie]

Re-Cap of TRUTH
#1 - JESUS finished his parable in verse 13
#2- JESUS begins LITERAL dialogue in verse 14 and continues in REAL Literal dialogue to verse 31.
#3- The Place where Abraham was, at that time, LITERAL
#4 - JESUS uses real names for REAL Literal persons
#5 - JESUS did not name the rich man for REAL LITERAL REASON

Read closer as it was a parable meant to give the Jews a understanding of who they were rejecting. The Jews had put their trust in their link to Abraham, in being the descendants of Abraham, rather than putting their faith in God.
John 8:33
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

"We be Abraham's seed," they proclaimed thinking this was their ticket to salvation and acceptance by God, while they rejected Jesus.

John 8:40
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

We see that the real Lazarus, Mary and Martha's brother, was raised from the dead, a living proof that Christ had the power of life over death. But much like today, they resisted the truth being given them.

Luke 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

They would not believe, proving the statement "though one were raised from the dead " it would do no good.

 

[Phoneman777]

I post my belief.
You can ask for any script you do not know or can find to verify in scripture to parallel any point.

I did ask...I asked for a verse that establishes a "third category of body" in addition to the two Paul mentions in 2 Cor. 5:1 KJV. So far, you've only presented your own ideas, not Biblical proof.

So where IS THE Breath of Life God Blows INTO the nostrils of a mans BODY?

The Breath of Life aka "Spirit of Life" is the "life giving principle of God that animates the inanimate". All through the Bible, we see this referenced, especially in Hebrew Parallelism. For instance, "The SPIRIT OF GOD hath made me, and the BREATH OF THE ALMIGHTY hath given me life".

The Breathe of God issues forth from God to give life to creatures, human, animal, insect, etc. (Ecclesiastes 3:19-21 KJV) and returns to God when the creature dies exactly as it was when it issued forth.

The reason so many are wrong about this is because they think "return to God" means "we go to heaven when we die" which is wrong. What returns is the Breath of Life exactly as it was when it issued forth from Him. We can't "return" to God for the same reason we can't "return" to the moon: we've never been there.

Scripture says Nothing whatsoever…of WHEN a Soul “comes INTO” Existance.

What does Scripture say happens immediately before it says "...and man became a living soul"?

That's right: "...breathed into his nostrils the Breath of Life".

The living Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.

* God blows INTO a mans Nostrils a Soul , with Gods Breath, and the man Becomes A living Man, Via A Living Soul.

Good grief, man, do you understand plain English? If you people don't start getting it through your heads that "WORDS MEAN THINGS" and slow down and think about what's written, you'll soon be ripe for deception.

Genesis 2:7 KJV says God blew His Breath of Life aka Spirit of Life - not a soul - up man's nostrils! Get it? It says the moment He blew it up man's nostrils, it was then that "man became a living soul". Understand? He wasn't "given" a soul or "inhabited" by a soul or "possessed" by a soul...man BECAME a soul.

Body + Breath of Life = living Soul comes into existence
Body - Breath of Life = dead Soul goes out of existence

Bulb + Electricity = Light comes into existence
Bulb - Electricity = Light goes out of existence

“Gods Soul” He Blew Into your Body.

Please stop saying this! The "Soul" and the "Breath of Life" are two distinct things.

You thereafter, (because “Gods Soul” is “IN” your body), can Possessively call the Soul In your body… as my, mine.

"God's soul" is not "in" our bodies - His "Spirit" is in our bodies, the union of which brings into existence the Living Soul, according to Genesis 2:7 KJV.

Affect the Soul with/in your body.”

There is no "soul with/in your body" in the sense of a separate entity!

"Nephesh" either refers to the "individual" called a Soul that's comprised of a Body and Breath of Life, or it refers to the "state" of having or no longer having life, such as in the case where "her soul was departing" which is an existential - not geographical - departure.

It never refers to some ghost or poltergeist that flies off from the body at death, which is paganism that catholicism dragged into Christianity.

Since your body was naturally Born…without knowing, believing IN the Lord God….
OOPS…you were naturally BORN AGAINST God…

* Against God IS SIN Against God.

OOPS…That Breath of Life In Gods Soul, God blew INTO you body, immediately becomes “corrupted”, being in your Body that is (SIN) Against God.

What are you going to do About that dilemma?

More like "False Dilemma". Which of the following statements is correct?

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God".
"All have been born with a sinful nature and fallen short of the glory of God".

Now you see that while we're born with a sinful nature, we do not become guilty of sin until we knowingly commit sin aka "transgression of the law". How can a newborn baby be condemned for "transgression of the law" when it hasn't the slightest notion about law or lawlessness?

To Have “the Soul” IN your Body, Forgiven it’s Sin Against God, and that Soul “Restored” back to “Very Good”, as it was when God Blew “HIS” soul into you Body?

I'm not sure what your point is but none of this explains the eyes, tongues, fingers, bosoms, and legs of the Rich Man and Lazarus and Abraham who are clearly dead and no longer in possession of there mortal bodies, but are not yet recipients of their resurrection bodies...what does explain it is this: IT'S A PARABLE.

Did you Stop being a BODY because “you BECAME” A Living soul?

No, man "became" a living soul when man's body and God's Breath of Life came into union. Consequently, at death when this union is dissolved and the Breath of Life returns to God and the Body returns to the dust, the Soul ceases to exist.

Is that your point you are no longer a MAN, A Body, because you “BECAME” a living soul?

IS your BODY now…A SOUL?

The Hebrew doesn't say "man became a living soul" though that is more than an acceptable translation. It says:

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and DUST OF THE GROUND became a living soul".

Again, the living Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life, and consequently, goes out of existence at the disunion of the same, when the Body returns to dust and the Breath of Life returns to God exactly as it was when it originally issued forth from God.

 

[Phoneman777]

Read closer as it was a parable meant to give the Jews a understanding of who they were rejecting. The Jews had put their trust in their link to Abraham, in being the descendants of Abraham, rather than putting their faith in God.
John 8:33
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

"We be Abraham's seed," they proclaimed thinking this was their ticket to salvation and acceptance by God, while they rejected Jesus.

John 8:40
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

We see that the real Lazarus, Mary and Martha's brother, was raised from the dead, a living proof that Christ had the power of life over death. But much like today, they resisted the truth being given them.

Luke 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

They would not believe, proving the statement "though one were raised from the dead " it would do no good.

Amen brother. It's so clear, even a blind man can see it. His parables either dealt with the kingdom of God or warning the Jews to repent or soon suffer rejection.

What the flip do people think He meant by "The time is fulfilled"? Lunch time? Prime time? Zodiac time?

He was talking about the "seven, threescore, and two weeks" prophetic time where the 69 Weeks were fulfilled and the final 70th Week began as He stepped out of the Jordan, leaving the Jews only 7 years left to get their act together or "the kingdom of God shall be taken from you"...and taken from them, it was.

The "Jew" Rich Man wound up in torment - the "Gentile" Lazarus became "heir" of the promises to Abraham.

 

[Taken]

I did ask...I asked for a verse that establishes a "third category of body" in addition to the two Paul mentions in 2 Cor. 5:1 KJV. So far, you've only presented your own ideas, not Biblical proof.

No one is challenging…
Created celestial spirit beings.
Or
Created terrestrial mortal bodily beings

The 3rd you seem to be confused About Is God Who IS Spirit and WAS NOT Created.

 

[David in NJ]

Read closer as it was a parable meant to give the Jews a understanding of who they were rejecting. The Jews had put their trust in their link to Abraham, in being the descendants of Abraham, rather than putting their faith in God.
John 8:33
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

"We be Abraham's seed," they proclaimed thinking this was their ticket to salvation and acceptance by God, while they rejected Jesus.

John 8:40
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

We see that the real Lazarus, Mary and Martha's brother, was raised from the dead, a living proof that Christ had the power of life over death. But much like today, they resisted the truth being given them.

Luke 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

They would not believe, proving the statement "though one were raised from the dead " it would do no good.

Read closer as the Scripture/Words of Christ REMOVE the possibility that it was a parable = by His exact words.

A single parable begins in Luke chapter 16 verse 1 and ENDS in verse 9

Verse 10 begins with JESUS speaking the REALITY of the parable given in verses 1 thru 9.

Verses 10 thru 14 are LITERAL

Verses 14 thru 18 are LITERAL

Verses 19 thru 31 continue in LITERAL form with no indication whatsoever of a parable but only speaks of LITERAL.

Abraham = Literal
Lazarus = Literal
Rich man = Literal
The Soul of Man/Afterlife = Literal
Judgment = Literal
Salvation = Literal
Moses/Law = Literal
Resurrection = Literal

JESUS never gives an interpretation of this LITERAL account and neither do His Disciples ask for one.

 

[Taken]

The Breath of Life aka "Spirit of Life" is the "life giving principle of God that animates the inanimate". All through the Bible, we see this referenced, especially in Hebrew Parallelism. For instance, "The SPIRIT OF GOD hath made me, and the BREATH OF THE ALMIGHTY hath given me life".

Disagree.
Breath of Life, Is The Soul, given EVERy Alive naturally born MAN KIND of Being, regardless of their Belief.
The SOUL is “restored” Saved by, through, of, Gods power, To be Forever with God.

The Natural Spirit “of” man is the Truth he developes and holds as his True Belief in his Heart, regardless of what his MIND wonders, believes, logically concludes and Changes regularly.

The QUICKENED (born Again) Spirit of MANKIND, is the event of that man receiving GODS Supernatural SEED, that which “Re-Births” that mans Natural spirit, (born of a mans seed)…into a Spiritual Spirit, born of Gods Seed.
This Event is expressly for that man, Giving to the Lord God the mans Confession of True Heartful belief….and God Himself Verifies that Be True.

 

[Taken]

“Wiords matter”

Yes words matter, including this occured “AND” then that occurred.
Including this AND this AND this.

Body + Breath of Life = living Soul comes into existence
Body - Breath of Life = dead Soul goes out of existence
"God's soul" is not "in" our bodies - His "Spirit" is in our bodies.

There is no "soul with/in your body" in the sense of a separate entity!

Body formed AND then Breath of Life blown INTO that form And that Form then has a SOUL in it.

* Souls can be SAVED or NOT.
* All SOULS belong to God.
* The Life IN the SOUL belongs to God.
* The Living SOUL departs a DEAD Body.
* Saved? That living SOUL returns to Gods Presence in heaven, to wait for Judgement Day.
* Unsaved? That living SOUL is sent to Hell void of Gods Presence and Beauty.

* All spirits of men are Natural from a mans seed, and will DIE with the mans mortal death.
* A mans Spirit that is Born Again, has received Gods Seed, and that born again Spirit of man Shall thereafter NEVER Die.

* All body’s of men Shall, Must Die.
. Body’s OF a man, WITH a Saved Soul AND Born Again…that such Body SHALL Be Glorified…raised Up, Holy, Sinless, AND thereafter NEVER Again Die.

Words matter…even Conjunctions!

Formed AND receipt of Gods breath of Life via a Soul that belongs to God.

Gen 2:
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1 Thes 5: 23…. Three Distinct parts of a man …. Body AND Soul AND Spirit….
that Can BE “MADE” By Gods Power, Authority, Offering ….Forever Alive “WITH” God….or Forever dead, forgotten, and “Without” God.

1 Thes: 5:
[23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In as much as your LIFE…(ie Blood” is IN your body…
So also is the Soul God gave you…
And IF Born Again…
So also IN you is Gods SEED and your born again Spirit….
And Gods “Spirit of Truth”!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Phoneman777]

Yes words matter, including this occured “AND” then that occurred.
Including this AND this AND this.

Body formed AND then Breath of Life blown INTO that form And that Form then has a SOUL in it.

* Souls can be SAVED or NOT.
* All SOULS belong to God.
* The Life IN the SOUL belongs to God.
* The Living SOUL departs a DEAD Body.
* Saved? That living SOUL returns to Gods Presence in heaven, to wait for Judgement Day.
* Unsaved? That living SOUL is sent to Hell void of Gods Presence and Beauty.

* All spirits of men are Natural from a mans seed, and will DIE with the mans mortal death.
* A mans Spirit that is Born Again, has received Gods Seed, and that born again Spirit of man Shall thereafter NEVER Die.

* All body’s of men Shall, Must Die.
. Body’s OF a man, WITH a Saved Soul AND Born Again…that such Body SHALL Be Glorified…raised Up, Holy, Sinless, AND thereafter NEVER Again Die.

Words matter…even Conjunctions!

Formed AND receipt of Gods breath of Life via a Soul that belongs to God.

Gen 2:
[7] And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1 Thes 5: 23…. Three Distinct parts of a man …. Body AND Soul AND Spirit….
that Can BE “MADE” By Gods Power, Authority, Offering ….Forever Alive “WITH” God….or Forever dead, forgotten, and “Without” God.

1 Thes: 5:
[23] And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

In as much as your LIFE…(ie Blood” is IN your body…
So also is the Soul God gave you…
And IF Born Again…
So also IN you is Gods SEED and your born again Spirit….
And Gods “Spirit of Truth”!

Glory to God,
Taken

Let's get back to my original point: Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:1 there are two kinds of bodies: our mortal body before we die and our resurrection body in the resurrection when Jesus comes in glory.

Unless you can point me to a verse - not opinions - which describes a "third category of body" of which dead people are recipients, we must conclude that the "bodies" of the Rich Man and company are as allegorical as the angels coming to gather "wheat" and burn "tares" in the end of the world "harvest".

I NEED YOU TO FIND ME A VERSE THAT SAYS SOMETHING LIKE THIS:​

"Paul says if we die and our literal mortal body dissolves, God has a literal resurrection body prepared for us. However, I - apostle Doofus Maximus - am here to tell you God also has a literal 'interim' body for us to wear while we're dead - a literal flesh and bone 'disembodied body' which I know sounds as stupid as 'terminated pregnancy impregnation' but just remember who's the inspired writer here and who's the putz who's only job is to read." - Doofus Maximus 3:50​

 

[Taken]

Let's get back to my original point: Paul says in 2 Corinthians 5:1 there are two kinds of bodies: our mortal body before we die and our resurrection body in the resurrection when Jesus comes in glory.

Unless you can point me to a verse - not opinions - which describes a "third category of body" of which dead people are recipients, we must conclude that the "bodies" of the Rich Man and company are as allegorical as the angels coming to gather "wheat" and burn "tares" in the end of the world "harvest".

There IS numerous KINDS of BODYS.

Every BODY is Created and Made by God as It Pleased Him.
(1 Cor 15:
[38] But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.)

God IS without Beginning and Invisible.
No Created man has Seen Gods Shape (body) or Heard His Voice.
(John 5:37)

There ARE Terrestrial Flesh Bodys..
[39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

There ARE Celestial Spirit Bodys…

[40] There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
[41] There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

[42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
[43] It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

I NEED YOU TO FIND ME A VERSE THAT SAYS SOMETHING LIKE THIS:​

"Paul says if we die and our literal mortal body dissolves, God has a literal resurrection body prepared for us.​

No.

Same body sewn in corruption, is MADE a Spiritual Body raised in Incorruption.

However, I - apostle Doofus Maximus - am here to tell you God also has a literal 'interim' body for us to wear while we're dead - a literal flesh and bone 'disembodied body' which I know sounds as stupid as 'terminated pregnancy impregnation' but just remember who's the inspired writer here and who's the putz who's only job is to read." - Doofus Maximus 3:50​

Those Crucified with Christ Jesus (forgiven, saved souls, quicken spirits, ie converted) Reside IN Christ Jesus Risen Body, until their own body is Raised Up in incorruption.
They called “IN Christ”.

 

[Phoneman777]

There IS numerous KINDS of BODYS.

Sorry, we need an example that establishes a LITERAL "post-death/pre-resurrection" body with LITERAL eyes, fingers, bosoms, tongues - like you all claim the Rich Man and company have.

Every BODY is Created and Made by God as It Pleased Him.
(1 Cor 15:
[38] But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.)

Paul's clearly speaking of the resurrection body here...we need proof for your "disembodied body" that supposedly provides the dead with eyes, fingers, bosoms, tongues, etc.

God IS without Beginning and Invisible.
No Created man has Seen Gods Shape (body) or Heard His Voice.
(John 5:37)

We're not looking for verses that speak of God's body - we need a verse that proves the Immortal Soul crowd's idea of a "disembodied body" that supposedly the dead Rich Man and Co have.

There ARE Terrestrial Flesh Bodys..
[39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

This refers to a creature's "mortal" body he possess before he dies. We need a verse which details your "disembodied body" idea that supposedly provides dead people with eyes and bosoms and fingers, etc.

There ARE Celestial Spirit Bodys…

You need to turn your gaze from the constellations up there to your Bible down here and locate for us just one single verse which establishes your "disembodied body" that supposedly provides dead people with fingers, eyes, bosoms, etc.

I'm starting to get the impression that you can't and are just stalling, rather than admit there is none.

Same body sewn in corruption, is MADE a Spiritual Body raised in Incorruption.

Again, this speaks of the "mortal" body sewn in corruption, and the "resurrection" body we get in the resurrection.

We need a verse which establishes a "disembodied body that supposedly grants dead people eyes, tongues, ears, tongues, etc.

Those Crucified with Christ Jesus (forgiven, saved souls, quicken spirits, ie converted) Reside IN Christ Jesus Risen Body, until their own body is Raised Up in incorruption.

Now you're just making stuff up.

There isn't one verse which says dead Christians go on to reside bodily in Jesus' body while dead which, even if true, would still not explain how the Rich Man standing among flames has eyes, tongues, etc.

They called “IN Christ”.

Are those who are "dead in Christ" in Him bodily with tongues, eyes, fingers? Of course not.

The expression "dead in Christ" refers to their spiritual condition they were in when they died, not some fictitious bodily condition while they are dead...unless you can find that verse that establishes that "disembodied body" idea you guys claim is so Biblical.

 

[Phoneman777]

Immortal Soul crowd, you can't have it both ways - can't have your cake and eat it, too:

You can't argue disembodied souls of the dead go straight to heaven or hell, purgatory, Abe's bosom, paradise (by which you affirm only the living have bodies - the "mortal" and "resurrection" - as described in 2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV) and then turn around and argue the Rich Man and Lazarus is a literal story which depicts the Rich Man and company with eyes, fingers, bosoms, tongues, legs to carry warnings, etc.

Do you not see how inconsistent a theology that is?

You stare at the body in the casket and say "AMEN" when someone says the dearly departed are "walking the streets of gold" and "singing with the angels" - and when someone asks how that can be, you say, "Oh, their body's in the casket but their disembodied souls are up there walking and singing" - then you argue the Rich Man and company is a literal story even though it says they have bodies with fingers, tongues, eyes, etc.

Which is it? Are the dead disembodied or not?

You can't fabricate a third, unBiblical category of "disembodied body" to "prove" Rich Man and Lazarus is a real, literal account of dead people, then revert back to saying "AMEN" when someone says a dead guy's "disembodied soul" is walking and singing in heaven while his body lies there in front of you in a casket.

Why not just admit the obvious? That the Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable using symbolism which must be interpreted in the same way we must interpret "angelic reapers" are coming for "wheat" and "tares" in the "harvest at the end of the world"?

 

[Taken]

Sorry, we need an example that establishes a LITERAL "post-death/pre-resurrection" body with LITERAL eyes, fingers, bosoms, tongues - like you all claim the Rich Man and company have.

Jesus speaking:

Luke 13:
[2] And Jesus answering said…

Jesus still speaking:

Luke 16:
[1] And he said also unto his disciples,…

Luke 16:
[19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
[21] And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
[22] And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: …
the rich man also died, and was buried;

Fact:
* A beggar named Lazarus died, was carried by angels to Abraham’s bosom.
* A rich man died, was buried.

[23] And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

Fact:
* the rich man, died and was buried.
* In hell the rich man SAW “afar off” Lazarus And Abraham.

[24] And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

Fact:
Rich man saw
Rich man spoke
Rich man was tormented in heat from flame.


[25] But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
[26] And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Fact:
Rich man in hell, in torments and Abraham (afar off) divided by a gulf, Had a conversation (of speaking, hearing, seeing, feeling.)

[27] Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
[28] For I have five brethren; [/B]that he may testify [/B]unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

Fact:
The rich man continued his conversation with Abraham, asking for Lazarus From the Dead to go his 5 living Brothers and testify of hell.

[29] Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
[30] And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
[31] And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Fact:
Abraham denied the rich man’s request…relating the Rich mans’ 5 living brothers had living MOSES’ to hear his Testimony

So … go ahead, and give your take away.
Can You answer?

1. Was Abraham dead?
2. Was Abraham’s Body buried?
3. Who buried Abraham’s Body?
4. Where was Abraham’s body buried?
5. Did a rich mans Body die?
6. Was Abraham’s Body buried in hell?
7. Was Lazarus’ Body buried in hell?
8. Was the Rich mans Body buried in hell?
9. What Was having an afar off SEEING, HEARING, SPEAKING conversation?
10, Can Dead Body’s, See, Speak, Hear, Feel, Taste, Smell?
11. What Was Seeing, Speaking, Hearing, Feeling ?
12. Is Jesus a Liar?

 

[Taken]

@Phoneman777

Can you answer ? I can.

1. Was Abraham dead?
Yes.

2. Was Abraham’s Body buried?
Yes.

3. Who buried Abraham’s Body?
Sons, Isaac and Ishmael.

4. Where was Abraham’s body buried?
Cave of Machpeleh, near Hebron, that Abraham purchased For his Body’s burial site.

5. Did a rich mans Body die?
Yes.

6. Was Abraham’s Body buried in hell?
No.

7. Was Lazarus’ Body buried in hell?
No.

8. Was the Rich mans Body buried in hell?
No.

9. What Was having an afar off SEEING, HEARING, SPEAKING conversation?
Departed Living Souls of Abraham and the Rich man.

10, Can Dead Body’s, See, Speak, Hear, Feel, Taste, Smell?
No.

11. What Was Seeing, Speaking, Hearing, Feeling ?
Departed Living Souls of Abraham and the Rich man.

12. Is Jesus a Liar?
No.

Your turn!

 

[Phoneman777]

@Phoneman777

Can you answer ? I can.

1. Was Abraham dead?
Yes.

2. Was Abraham’s Body buried?
Yes.

3. Who buried Abraham’s Body?
Sons, Isaac and Ishmael.

4. Where was Abraham’s body buried?
Cave of Machpeleh, near Hebron, that Abraham purchased For his Body’s burial site.

5. Did a rich mans Body die?
Yes.

6. Was Abraham’s Body buried in hell?
No.

7. Was Lazarus’ Body buried in hell?
No.

8. Was the Rich mans Body buried in hell?
No.

9. What Was having an afar off SEEING, HEARING, SPEAKING conversation?
Departed Living Souls of Abraham and the Rich man.

10, Can Dead Body’s, See, Speak, Hear, Feel, Taste, Smell?
No.

11. What Was Seeing, Speaking, Hearing, Feeling ?
Departed Living Souls of Abraham and the Rich man.

12. Is Jesus a Liar?
No.

Your turn!

OK, my turn:

The Rich Man and company are said to have bodies!

Where is the verse which testifies to the dead being clothed in bodies while they're dead?

If you can't find such a text (and you won't) then the passage is as symbolic as the angel reapers coming with sickles to collect wheat and burn tares in the harvest at the end of the world!

 

[Taken]

OK, my turn:

The Rich Man and company are said to have bodies!

No.

Where is the verse which testifies to the dead being clothed in bodies while they're dead?

That is your words, not mine.
No clue where to tell you where to look in scripture for what your words say.

If you can't find such a text (and you won't) then the passage is as symbolic as the angel reapers coming with sickles to collect wheat and burn tares in the harvest at the end of the world!

What passage is “symbolic” you are talking about?

You didn’t answer the questions…!

 

[Wick Stick]

BY CORRECTLY CONCLUDING that the story of Rich Man and Lazarus is a parable, we maintain Scriptural harmony, discern a valuable lesson from its interpretation, and put an end to its illegitimate use as a "proof text" for the doctrine of Eternal Torment - because any Bible scholar worth his salt knows we can't substantiate a doctrine on an uninterpreted parable. Here are 14 irresolvable contradictions which result from attempts to make the passage literal:

1. DISEMBODIED BODIES?
The Eternal Torment crowd claims when a person dies his body is buried, but “his disembodied soul" leaves this world to points beyond without a body - so, why do the Rich Man, Lazarus, and Abraham have eyes, fingers, tongues, bosoms, legs to carry a warning, etc.? Obviously, "disembodied souls" by definition do not have bodies, and thus can't have eyes, tongues, fingers, bosoms, etc.

Now, before anyone jumps to any conclusions, we need to remember that 2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV plainly identifies only two types of bodies - the mortal and the resurrection - and that's the only two types of bodies God's Bible knows about. There's no mention in Scripture of any third type “interim body” for the dead prior to the resurrection, so extra-Biblical ideas about a "disembodied body" or "ghost body" or "temporary body" are pure fiction and warrant no consideration whatsoever.

2. ABRAHAM'S LITERAL BOSOM?
Lazarus was carried “into Abraham's bosom" - are we to believe all the righteous dead up until that time have been carried into Abraham's literal bosom? How big can Abraham's bosom be?

Now, those who claim “Abraham's Bosom” is a literal, actual name for “heaven” or “paradise” need to read Luke 16:23 KJV which says the Rich Man sees Abraham afar off and Lazarus "in his bosom” - in the bosom of the man himself - which is physiological, not geographical.

3. LYING EYES?
The Rich Man is able to see “Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom” aka “place of comfort” aka “the kingdom” - but Jesus Himself said the wicked won't see the righteous in the kingdom until the end, in the Judgment, when the wicked are told to “depart”. Yet, here we find Lazarus and Abraham in full view of the Rich Man.

Now, for those who claim these dead guys are actually in some supposed “holding chamber” next door to hell called “paradise” (now that we've seen “Abraham's Bosom” is a purely fictitious place), we must remember that “paradise” is easily shown from the Scriptures themselves to be where God is up there, not anywhere near hell down here.

4. THE DEAD KNOW NOT ANYTHING
(Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Job 14:21 KJV; Psalm 146:4 KJV)

These dead guys sure seem to know a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to know anything.

5. THE DEAD DON'T REMEMBER ANYTHING
(Psalms 6:5 KJV; Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV; Psalms 88:12 KJV)

These dead guys are sure able to remember a whole lot for people who aren't supposed to remember anything.

6. THE DEAD DON'T HAVE EMOTIONS
(Ecclesiastes 9:6 KJV; Proverbs 10:28 KJV)

These dead guys do a great job of demonstrating loving concern and also condescending disdain for people who aren't supposed to be able to have emotions.

7. THE DEAD DON'T PERFORM WORK
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV; John 9:4 KJV)

The dead Rich Man mustn't have gotten the memo that Lazarus had finished his shift and clocked out - permanently.

8. THE DEAD DON'T DEVISE ANYTHING
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man was well able to devise a plan to warn his brothers for someone unable to do so.

9. THE DEAD DON'T HAVE WISDOM
(Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV; Proverbs 2:6 KJV)

Dead Abraham was well able give wise testimony about the convicting power of the Word of God for someone unable to do so.

10. THE DEAD DON'T PRAISE GOD
(Isaiah 38:18 KJV; Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalms 88:11 KJV)

Dead Abraham sure spoke highly of God's Word for someone unable to do so.

11. THE DEAD ARE IN DARKNESS
(Psalms 88:12 KJV; Job 10:21-22 KJV)

These dead guys must all have been wearing night vision goggles to see through all that darkness.

12. THE DEAD ARE IN SILENCE
(Psalms 115:17 KJV; Psalm 31:17 KJV)

These dead guys were loud enough to wake the rest of the dead what with all that shouting back and forth at each other across that great gulf.

13. THE DEAD ARE ASLEEP
(Psalms 13:3 KJV; Ephesians 5:14 KJV; John 11:11-14 KJV)

These dead guys are fully awake and aware of their surroundings, especially the thirsty guy whose completely engulfed in flames of torment.

14. THE DEAD ARE RESERVED FOR FUTURE TORMENT
(2 Peter 2:9 KJV; Revelation 20:10 KJV)

The dead Rich Man must have been pretty bad to find himself immediately in flames of torment since God Himself says He's “reserved the unjust unto the day of Judgment to be punished”.

I would recommend reading 1Enoch 22, a bit out of an extra-Biblical Hebrew book that was popular in the 1st century.

It has quite a bit to do with the Lazarus and the Rich Man. Jesus was clearly familiar with this writing, and may be riffing off of it when he tells this story.

 

[Wick Stick]

I think it has to be a parable. What is the rich man's name?

The "Rich Man" in the parable is probably a thinly veiled reference to Caiaphas, who was the high priest at the time.

This is why he wore "purple and linen," which is the Biblical dress of the high priest. This is why he makes reference to his "five brethren" as well - Caiaphas was one of 6 brothers who all famously served at one point or another in the capacity of high priest. They were all the sons of Annas (Hananiah) who himself served as high priest and afterward remained the most prominent power broker in Judea in the 1st century.

 

[Wick Stick]

There were others named Lazarus too. Plenty of Joseph's and Mary's, and Jacob's. Its a fact, that Jesus didn't use real names in Parables. Its a real story.

I don't know for sure, but I doubt that Lazarus was a popular name. It's a Greek-ification of Hebrew Lo-Ezer which means "no help." Usually names mean positive things.

 

[Phoneman777]

No.

It absolutely says they have eyes, tongues, fingers, bosoms, legs to carry a warning to the Rich Man's brother! You Immortal Soul crowd folks deny what's plainly written in red and white, but somehow are able to see "disembodied bodies" in the pages of Scripture while never actually sharing book, chapter, verse.

That is your words, not mine.
No clue where to tell you where to look in scripture for what your words say.

You guys insist the Rich Man and Lazarus is a literal, real account of something that happened to dead people: Rich Man tormented in literal fire, a literal great gulf between the saved and lost, literal conversation between them, etc...and literal bodies with eyes, tongues, bosoms, fingers, right?

So, where's the verse that identifies this "third category of body" that in addition to Paul's two described in 2 Corinthians 5:1?

What passage is “symbolic” you are talking about?

You didn’t answer the questions…!

Look, the burden is on YOU guys - it is YOU who claim the Rich Man and Lazarus is a REAL LITERAL ACTUAL ACCOUNT and deny the truth that it is a parable.

Therefore, please show us the verse that teaches the dead receive a third category of body in addition to the two - the "mortal" and "resurrection" - that's taught in 2 Corinthians 5:1 KJV.

We wear the "mortal" body before we die and put on the "resurrection" body after we rise when Jesus comes - WHERE DOES THE BIBLE TEACH WE PUT ON SOME LITERAL "DISEMBODIED BODY" WHILE WE'RE DEAD LIKE YOU GUIYS CLAIM THE RICH MAN AND COMPANY ARE WEARING?