This is who you are. This is what drives you guys - insults and bitterness.. Apart from avoidance, you have nothing else.
POSTRIB RAPTURE. A BIBLE ONLY VIEW
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Taken
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Keraz
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As that is not what John 14:1-4 says at all, Jesus was truthful in saying how His faithful peoples will live in the new Jerusalem. On the New Earth, as described in Revelation 21:1-7. AFTER the Millennium and the GWT Judgment.
Matthew 16:27 does not in any way say we do go to heaven.
Your confused and wrong beliefs, have the rewards in heaven and us on earth, then the rewards on earth with Jesus at His Return and us in heaven???????
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Revelation 14 is after Revelation 19 happens??
Revelation 20:4 is the gathering of souls beheaded. Revelation 14 does not mention anything about the beheaded standing before thrones and receiving eternal life. Being beheaded is not spiritual symbolism of some winepress being squeezed out.
I would point out that being beheaded is not being raptured.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Do you not think those in first century Israel went through great tribulation? The Second Coming is after that tribulation of those days.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
And Israel will become a nation after the Second Coming.
Yet Israel became a nation in 1948, so we missed the Second Coming, the rapture, the Tribulation, and the AoD, because they all happened before Israel became a nation.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
They came out of great tribulation. They did not go thru it. No one has lived the entire 1994 years since the Cross. The church has gone through the tribulation of those days, because the church would suffer persecution from when Jesus left the earth until Jesus returned as King of Israel, to sit on His glorious throne in a Temple in Jerusalem.
That is the only post tribulation there is. The tribulation of the last 1994 years.
The Second Coming is before Jacob's trouble, the first 6 Trumpets, which will be actual literal events on the earth. They happened after the 7th Seal was opened. Jesus and His angels were already on the earth when the 6th Seal was opened. That is the pre-Jacob's trouble events, and Jacob's trouble is also called the Great Tribulation like none other tribulation.
The 5th Seal is the rapture, because putting on those white robes is being glorified. The complete restoration of soul with body and spirit. The souls would then wait as the church glorified, while the GT of the Trumpets and Thunders happened on the earth.
Being slain is not being martyred. Being slain is shedding Adam's dead corruptible flesh. One cannot be made alive until the soul leaves this mortal body. And most of the billions of humans on the earth will be tossed alive into the LOF. That is why it is called the GT. The church is not sitting around watching TV as the angels are tossing people into the LOF. The church is not tossing people into the LOF. The church is not being killed. The church was already glorified in the 5th Seal. There is no going through any of the Trumpets, because the church is not even on the earth. John sees the entire church in Paradise serving God day and night in that heavenly Temple, even before the 7th Seal is opened. They are told to wait until the sheep and wheat is harvested on the earth.
The sheep and wheat are slain out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, just like the church, but they wait on the sea of glass, to return on white horses at some point. Either at the 7th Trumpet, or 42 months later to Armageddon. The wheat and sheep are not even on the earth when the mark is given by God, and souls are beheaded out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.
The Church is removed and told to wait. The 5th Seal is proof of a pre-trib rapture.
"And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
White robes = the church glorified.
A little season = the GT.
Their brethren = the sheep harvest of Matthew 25 and the wheat harvest of Matthew 13. Jesus and the angels are on the earth for both the Trumpets and Thunders.
Then if time is extended after the 7th Trumpet, those beheaded = more brethren. But those souls do not return on white horses with the sheep and wheat. Those beheaded have to be judged and then given eternal life. They are not redeemed until after Satan is bound for a thousand years. Then they are judged and live on the earth for those thousand years.
The only reason the AoD is allowed, is if God declares at the 7th Trumpet there will still be some who choose to be beheaded. If no one is left to be beheaded, there will be no AoD, nor mark placed on people past time being declared over by the 7th Trumpet. The third woe is that some will be beheaded. No one beheaded, no third woe. No Armageddon either. The week of the 7th Trumpet will end, and the millennium will begin, the Day of the Lord. But the Day of the Lord comes with judgment on over 8 billion souls. It is not over in a twinkling of an eye.
The sheep harvest in Jerusalem for Israel happens after the rapture of the Church. Then after all of Israel from all nations have been redeemed or tossed into the LOF, then and only then can the wheat harvest take place in the 7 Thunders. Then after the 7 Thunders, the 7th Trumpet will sound, bringing Daniel's 70 weeks to a close.
This is not plan B. God always planned on there being the fulness of the Gentiles for 2 millennia. There is a plan "a" winepress or a plan "b" winepress. But the final harvest has to happen first. If the church prayed like Solomon for God to heal the "land", then the church could be the largest harvest, removed before any other harvest. The judgment would be shorter and with less difficulty and trouble.
Evidently the church would rather suffer with the lost and endure punishment with blood on their hands than see the majority of those alive receive eternal life. The church would rather have an antichrist and mark, than a golden harvest full and overflowing. The church would rather go out beheaded than raptured.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Yes, for a few moments they take a break from serving God day and night in that heavenly temple.
You do realize they have had permanent incorruptible physical bodies enjoying all Paradise has to offer since the thief was promised Paradise that day, not told to wait 2 millennia.
The only thing they lack is putting on those white robes. The church is glorified as one complete body. The church is already glorified before the sheep and wheat are slain on the earth, out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh and translated into God's permanent incorruptible physical bodies.
But the sheep and wheat are not in that multitude in Revelation 7. They are those in Revelation 15 on the sea of glass. They live on the earth for a thousand years. The church is still serving God in heaven, until the New Jerusalem comes down in the NHNE.
"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" = church glorified and waiting.
"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God." = rest of the brethren = redeemed, but returning on white horses to live on the earth, not part of the glorified church.
"I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."
= rest of the brethren = redeemed, but the only post trib brethren, not raptured, but beheaded in the 3rd woe, who stand in judgment, receive redemption and eternal life, but not part of the sheep or wheat, so saved, yet so as by fire, with no rewards to show, as the only thing they ever did by faith was chop their head off.
Post-trib rapture = crickets sounding. No such group. Wait. There are those 2 witnesses killing people, and urging people to chop off their head as an alter call.
"And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."
But most people, wrongly, put this between the 6th Trumpet and 1st Thunder. While these 2 are on the earth during the last 42 months prior to Armageddon, they are the only ones literally "martyred", and that is not how Paul described the rapture. Those alive and remain, not those laying in Jerusalem dead for 3.5 days. These are the last to physically die, after those beheaded. But they don't get a new body. They already had a permanent incorruptible physical body. God just allowed them to die, to be an example that those on earth had placed their trust and confidence in the wrong entity, Satan. The same body that was killed came back to life and ascended into heaven. It could not have been Adam's dead corruptible flesh, which cannot enter heaven. These 2 individuals were already sealed and free of death and sin. So no, still not a post trib rapture. Their ministry did not involve trying to persevere and avoid sinning. They had a task to be a torment to those on the earth. Not you typical "Christian setting a fine example". They were not death angels either. They were there to be a witness to those who would be beheaded as that was their harvest field. Those beheaded were the last humans harvested, stilled named in the Lamb's book of life.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Supposition is not reality.
You claim they are all killed. There are no mortals in the millennium.
This is not about the errors you claim abound in modern eschatology.
No post trib saints on earth needing to be raptured either. They were all beheaded. Paul said alive and remain, not physically dead.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Not all the church has been martyred. All have been slain out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. John does not call them martyred, so why do you?
Would you call being changed and raptured the same as being martyred? Paul never mentioned martyred, but he did say "alive and remain." Being changed is being slain out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, without any pain or suffering. The church is not waiting for souls to die for the Gospel's sake. The church is waiting for the final redemption of many on the earth.
Slain and under the alter symbolizes the redemption of mankind. Jesus was the Lamb slain on that alter from the foundation of the world. All in Christ are represented as slain under (covered by that alter of redemption) that alter.
Do you think the sheep and wheat are martyred by the angels? Even so, they are not alive and remain to be raptured after being slain out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. They are taken by the angels presumably to the sea of glass, if you want to call that a rapture. They don't transport themselves there on their own. But not at the end of the trib. There are way more angels than humans. So no one has to wait for an available angel to get to the sea of glass.
You do realize that overcoming Satan and the mark, does not have to be confrontational. They overcome because they are removed from that scenario. The mark cannot happen until after the 7th Trumpet has declared time up. The mark is like an expiration stamp. There is no more redemption available once one's name is removed from the Lamb's book of life. That is what the mark represents. The blood of the Lamb was their victory.
"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."
Since they were covered by the blood even before creation, they had the victory before creation. Waiting on the sea of glass was both a victory, and the protection of Revelation 12:14
"And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."
These are the sheep found in Matthew 25. They wait on the sea of glass, after standing before Jesus in judgment. They had to be physically changed before they could wait on the sea of glass. They had to stand in judgment because they were not the church raptured at the Second Coming. The church was glorified, and waiting for them to be redeemed.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Revelation repeats the Second Coming in ch1, chapters 2&3, ch6 , ch7, ch11, ch14, ch19 and ch22
CORRECT
Question - Why does God mention them???
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
There is no repeated Second Coming in the book. There is only one Second Coming at the 6th Seal. Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming. Jesus sits in Judgment on a throne in Jerusalem from The 7th Seal until the 7th Thunder. Then the 7th Trumpet declares Jesus the King of the entire earth, as all nations have been brought under subjection during the first 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders.
Jesus does not come and leave for the church, then comes and leaves for Israel, and then comes and leaves for the rest of the earth, after the third time. That is your implied 3 comings repeated throughout the book. There is no implied repetition in Revelation. That is human taught imagination from human understanding. Humans have to teach that, as that is not how John wrote what he experienced.
John is telling us who is involved and when by the usage of the terms: seals, trumpets, and thunders. While the seals and trumpets are literal, they carry a spiritual connotation of who John is addressing.
The Lamb's book of life contains all the names of the elect, which is literally every soul born of Adam and Eve. A soul is elect until their name is removed, then God declares He never knew them. That is the entire bases of the argument over predestination. A name can not be removed until the 7th Seal is opened. The church is removed from the earth at the 5th Seal, and glorified, the putting on of the white robes. Then told to wait until Jesus removes the rest of the elect during the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus is on the earth at the 6th Seal, which is the Second Coming.
He then sits in judgment on the earth in Jerusalem on His glorious throne over all the descendents of Jacob. This happens during the first 6 Trumpets. In Scripture Trumpets were used to call Israel to assembly. The judgement of the sheep and goats in Matthew 25 describes Israel being brought out of all nations and judged by their King. Those redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh are given new permanent incorruptible physical bodies and they wait on the sea of glass. The goats are removed from the Lamb's book of life, and tossed alive into the LOF. When Jesus comes to the Mount of Olives, not only does He rescue Israel, but changes everything about Israel per Zechariah 14, and sets up His kingdom before the 7th Seal is even opened.
Even the 144k are sealed (before the 7th Seal is opened) out of Jacob, and follow Jesus every where on the earth all the way up to the 7th Trumpet. Jesus never leaves, nor are the Trumpets a repeat of the Seals. Jesus is not on the earth during the first 5 Seals, but Jesus is on the earth during all the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus arrives on the earth during the 6th Seal, and still on the earth when He opens the 7th and final Seal. Because that is when He sits in judgment and starts to remove names from the Lamb's book of life, as all the Seals have been removed. The church is safe and sealed before the Lamb's book of life is unsealed. The 144k on earth are safe and sealed with Jesus before the 7th Seal is opened. The sheep and goats are judged after the Lamb's book of life is unsealed. The sheep are not the church. The sheep are those of Israel living on the earth in Israel for the Millennial Kingdom. The sheep are still redeemed out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh, but live on earth not in Paradise with the church.
This verse does not say wait till they get to heaven. It says wait while they are slain, that is physically removed from Adam's dead corruptible flesh.
"rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."
That does not mean martyred. That means shedding Adam's dead corruptible flesh and putting on God's permanent incorruptible physical body. Jesus can do that for the sheep on the earth, just like the church when she was raptured from the earth. That is redemption; out of death, into life. That is being made alive, per 1 Corinthians 15.
You just provided passages aligning with a pretrib rapture !
Thanks!
You are convincing me that after the tribulation Angels gather in heaven. Yes they do!
the Saints are in heaven, and the angels gather them to the white horses!
that is after the tribulation.
You need to understand ,that in the Rapture, Jesus gathers from Earth.
Now concerning protection during the tribulation.
you posted a passage that aligns perfectly with the 144,000 Jewish ethnic believers, Messianic Believers, are indeed Protected.
Theyre sealed , but no Christians are sealed, only the 144,000 Jewish believers.
We will also note that the main body of Jews is ushered away, as is vividly described in the Book of Revelation, possibly to the place of Petra, and the devil can't follow them, he's prohibited from following them.
So yes in Revelation 14 ,when the Jews are gathered, those days are shortened, because then the wrath of God is poured, out right after Revelation 14, which is the Gathering of the Jews.
So I totally agree with your passages but you need to do a little research before you jump to a conclusion.
You just admitted, they can not make a biblical argument.
Their deal is so weak
We have verses.
Yes that bible " dies hard".
...and they are forced to go against that die hard bible.
Visit my thread " before the flood is actually after the flood."
Three comings VIVID AND BIBLICAL.
That alone destroys any hope of a postrib rapture.
The job of the postrib rapture adherent is to make those three biblical comings into one.
Then explain why we have multiple verses while they have zero verses.
Um do you expect to be taken seriously at all? I hope not. These kinds of responses are utterly ridiculous and do nothing to support your case. You are obviously incapable of defending your doctrine, so I'm not going to waste any more time on you.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
You leftbout...SMH in disbelief, " about to come upon the whole earth"
Psssst...that speaks of a specific event, that you needed reframing, and so you did just that.
Cunning.
But no cigar
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Nope.
100% bible.
Now refute the Bible for us.
That is your inference.
You got some verses to void mine?
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