And remember Jesus used Lot and Noah in the prejudgement coming.
BOTH are framed as normal life and commerce AT HIS COMING.
Jesus is not con-fused here.
He is definately speaking of 2 separate events.
POSTRIB RAPTURE. A BIBLE ONLY VIEW
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BOTH are framed as normal life and commerce AT HIS COMING.
Jesus is not con-fused here.
He is definately speaking of 2 separate events.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
21 For at that time there will be a great tribulation (pressure, distress, oppression), such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will [again]. 22 And if those days [of tribulation] had not been cut short, no human life would be saved; but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened.
23 Then if anyone says to you [during the great tribulation], ‘Look! Here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and they will provide great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect (God’s chosen ones). 25 Listen carefully, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out there, or, ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms [of a house],’ do not believe it. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes as far as the west, so will be the coming [in glory] of the Son of Man [everyone will see Him clearly]
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not provide its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And at that time the sign of the Son of Man [coming in His glory] will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth [and especially Israel] will mourn [regretting their rebellion and rejection of the Messiah], and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory [in brilliance and splendor]. 31 And He will send His angels with a loud trumpet and they will gather together His elect (God’s chosen ones) from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
I don’t know if this helps or not but heaven and earth have passed away many times in history.
God is resetting the world right now and billions of people are going to die just like in the flood.
The earth on the other side of this reset won’t be anything like the earth we experience now which means the kingdom of heaven won’t be either.
God is resetting the world right now and billions of people are going to die just like in the flood.
The earth on the other side of this reset won’t be anything like the earth we experience now which means the kingdom of heaven won’t be either.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
pre-trib rapture verses always VANISH when you open up the Bible...................for not one exists
If there was just one! You would of posted it.
JESUS said His Coming is Post-Trib = if you will not believe CHRIST you are left to deception from doctrines of men
Yes we all see after the trib the elect are gathered from Heaven by angels.
In the rapture vividly portrayed in mat 25, the BRIDE is gathered from Earth by Jesus.
Postrib Doctrine via omission, makes sense only to the omitted.
Your doctrinal hinge and foundation is "one coming"
In fact NONE OF YOU have EVER addressed the 3 comings.
QUOTE
"""21 For at that time there will be a great tribulation (pressure, distress, oppression), such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will [again]. 22 And if those days [of tribulation] had not been cut short, no human life would be saved; but for the sake of the elect (God’s chosen ones) those days will be shortened."""
You are just Mish mashing that.
The ELECT are protected. The Jew is protected.
It CLEARLY SAYS SO.
They are ushered into a place of safety.
They are harvested SEPARATELY in Rev 14.
That is EXACTLY what that is talking about.
Now, CONVERSELY, the left behind church , every believer refusing the mark, is wiped out !!!
is ABSOLUTELY martyred..AS IS DECLARED IN THE BIBLE.
Your deal is impossible.
You are simply stringing things together, via no context, or harmonizing with the pretrib rapture verses.
You just proved my point.
I specifically stated in the op that postribs must not hide behind " orange man bad/ pretrib bad"
No , this thread is for YOU to finally man up and convince us that YOU have the VERSES.
The hiding behind a win by default is for another thread.
But since you can not do that, maybe sit this one out?.
Why do you think nobody is in here?
Psssst.....Because they can not defend their own doctrine.
We already debunked your only verse.
You just showed us that after the tribulation (which is revelation 19) ,the Assembly of the white horses in heaven that come down and destroy the Antichrist, are gathered in heaven, not the Earth, and that Gathering is By Angels, not Jesus. So every time you post that, you're showing us that the coming on the white horses is most certainly not the rapture.
you don't realize it in your mind I guess it's a comprehension problem.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Your post is a little non-logical so try again and be a little more accurate in your prognosis!
Did you read the op?
You got nothing....that is your point?????
You don't know WHY nobody is in here????
They have a unique chance to post PROOF...BIBLICAL PROOF, THEIR DOCTRINE is from the bible.
You can't do that?????
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
No - that is not what i said
Revelation is a series of 'revealings' of the Second Coming and "things that must take place"
Each 'revealing' will specify a certain truth that the LORD is 'revealing' to us.
Rev 14 is the 'gathering' of souls who are BEING put to DEATH for refusing the MARK
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”
Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
Rev ch14 we SEE the LORD expanding on the Fifth SEAL and 'revealing' more details to it.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
JESUS said it Loud and Clear = matt ch24
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Where is the "first gathering" you promised was in Matthew ch24 = can you post it???
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Jesus sending out his Angels to gather is still him gathering. Doesn't mean 2 different gatherings.
Where is the rapture vividly portrayed on Matt 25?
Which coming were the disciples referring to here...,
Matt 24
3 While Jesus was seated on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, and said, “Tell us, when will this [destruction of the temple] take place, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end (completion, consummation) of the age?”
Where did Jesus differentiate between these supposed multiple comings so we wouldn't become confused?
Here is a passage that Pre-Tribs believe to the true:
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
CORRECT = JESUS says His Coming is Post-Trib = HE says this beginning in Genesis all the WAY thru the Gospel and His Apostles.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Thats good to hear.
So, it is not a secret coming for the elect only as all will see him coming.
This thread is disappointing thus far. The OP has challenged Post tribbers to undeniably prove Post trib. If I was still Pretrib and I was reading this thread, not one post made by any Post tribbber in here thus far would be enough to convince me Post trib is the correct view.
I probably couldn't do any better myself. Yet, I factor in things that Pretribbers apparently see not being relevant. Such as, if Pretrib is true, what would that mean per this passage or per that passage? Like the last trump, for example, where bodily immortality isn't put on until then. Does the Pretrib position agree with that or does it contradict that? Keeping in mind that there can't be a rapture unless there is a rising of the dead first. But I have already tried that route in other threads pertaining to Pretrib, and didn't manage to change any Pretribbers mind about anything.
There is only one thing at this point that is going to undeniably prove Post trib, thus disprove Pretrib, and that is when great tribulation is upon the church big time, where it is even affecting Christians in the USA, and that Pretribbers are still here. Until then this debate is futile. Pretribbers these days are not like the Pretribbers of my days. I was a Pretribber for decades, yet I still managed to abandon that view eventually.
Pretribbers these days are die hard Pretribbers that are never going to change their mind no matter what anyone argues. But they will change their mind eventually because they will have no choice at that point since great tribulation will be upon us big time and that they are all still here.
I probably couldn't do any better myself. Yet, I factor in things that Pretribbers apparently see not being relevant. Such as, if Pretrib is true, what would that mean per this passage or per that passage? Like the last trump, for example, where bodily immortality isn't put on until then. Does the Pretrib position agree with that or does it contradict that? Keeping in mind that there can't be a rapture unless there is a rising of the dead first. But I have already tried that route in other threads pertaining to Pretrib, and didn't manage to change any Pretribbers mind about anything.
There is only one thing at this point that is going to undeniably prove Post trib, thus disprove Pretrib, and that is when great tribulation is upon the church big time, where it is even affecting Christians in the USA, and that Pretribbers are still here. Until then this debate is futile. Pretribbers these days are not like the Pretribbers of my days. I was a Pretribber for decades, yet I still managed to abandon that view eventually.
Pretribbers these days are die hard Pretribbers that are never going to change their mind no matter what anyone argues. But they will change their mind eventually because they will have no choice at that point since great tribulation will be upon us big time and that they are all still here.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Just this one passage of TRUTH is enough for anyone to believe Post-Trib AND it is shame that 'christians' scoff at Christ's words.
This is crystal clear, no parables, no guessing = STRAIGHT from the LORD
When a person claims to be a follower of Christ and yet scoffs at His words, it means an enemy has sown tares in their minds.
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
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