22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Illuminator]

Hey, genius, that is only your opinion that they are referenced in New Testament scripture.
I don't believe he was referencing those passages specifically and you have no evidence to prove that. It's just your assumption.

Heb. 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.
It's not a reference, 2 Macc. 7:1-42 is a description of what Paul teaches in Heb 11:35 that is missing in your Bible.
How can Paul be teaching about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons if he's not using scripture??? The story is 200 years old! Did Paul just make it up???

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
What "describes" and "follows" should be obvious, if you bother to compare the texts.

I know what is true or not by way of the Holy Spirit who lives in me. There is nothing blind about the trust I have in the word of God. There are things taught in your stupid extrabiblical books that contradict scripture.

That's an assumption you have yet to prove.

Such as the idea of someone atoning for their own sin. That contradicts a lot of scripture because NT scripture repeatedly teaches about how only the blood of Christ can atone for sin.

I've never heard of someone atoning for there own sins. We repent of sins, we don't atone for them. Where did this ridiculous notion come from? Jack Chick?

All we can do is acknowledge that fact and put our faith and trust in Him. There is nothing tangible that we can do to atone for our sins. This doctrine shows a complete lack of understanding of God's grace and a lack of understanding that we are not saved by works. Why are you okay with believing in things that are taught in your extrabiblical books that contradict what is taught in the New Testament?

First, give us a chance to explain why we have no "extra-biblical books" and there are no contradictions with the Deuterocanonical Books.

I honestly don't care. All I know is that they clearly did the right thing because it makes no sense to have books within the Bible that contradict what is taught in other books of the Bible.

There are no contradictions. You keep saying that without proof.

LOL. You are VERY dramatic when you speak. I find THAT to be HILARIOUS.


That is a lie. They are not quoted 200 times.

No, usage varies. They are not supposed to be word-for-word "quotes". OT verses are joined with NT verses in a variety of ways: describes, follows, the converse of, similar to, same as, and sometimes prophesied.

I don't believe they are quoted at all.

I don't care if you believe the Dueterocanons aren't scripture. You risk denying the truth of Jewish history. Luther was intensely ant-Semitic.

But, even if they were quoted at all, there is nothing wrong with quoting something that is true even if something else contained within the same book is false. Truth is truth regardless.

Jude quoted from the book of Enoch.

Jude 14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Yet, the book of Enoch is not in your Bible and not considered Scripture by Catholics. So much for your idea that scripture can only quote other scripture.

"scripture can only quote other scripture" is your 3rd straw man fallacy.
There is no evidence that a 66 book Bible was used by any church anywhere on the planet before the 14th century.

Here is a sample of the 200 couplets previously mentioned, focusing on the Gospels:

Matt. 2:16 – Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 – slaying the holy innocents.

Matt. 6:19-20 – Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 – lay up your treasure.

Matt.. 7:12 – Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 – what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 – Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 – the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 – the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 – sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 – Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 – Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 – Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 – Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 – Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 – the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 – let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.

Matt. 27:43 – if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 – Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 – description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 1:42 – Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness above all women follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18.

Luke 1:52 – Mary’s magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.

Luke 2:29 – Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.

Luke 13:29 – the Lord’s description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.

Luke 21:24 – Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.

Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 – Luke’s description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.

John 1:3 – all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.

John 3:13 – who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.

John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 – Jesus’, Luke’s and Paul’s usage of “signs and wonders” follows Wisdom 8:8.

John 5:18 – Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 6:35-59 – Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

John 10:22 – the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.

John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.

John 15:6 – branches that don’t bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.
see the full list here

The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called “Jamnia” in 90 – 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

 

[WPM]

Heb. 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.
It's not a reference, 2 Macc. 7:1-42 is a description of what Paul teaches in Heb 11:35 that is missing in your Bible.
How can Paul be teaching about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons if he's not using scripture??? The story is 200 years old! Did Paul just make it up???

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
What "describes" and "follows" should be obvious, if you bother to compare the texts.



That's an assumption you have yet to prove.

I've never heard of someone atoning for there own sins. We repent of sins, we don't atone for them. Where did this ridiculous notion come from? Jack Chick?

First, give us a chance to explain why we have no "extra-biblical books" and there are no contradictions with the Deuterocanonical Books.

There are no contradictions. You keep saying that without proof.

No, usage varies. They are not supposed to be word-for-word "quotes". OT verses are joined with NT verses in a variety of ways: describes, follows, the converse of, similar to, same as, and sometimes prophesied.

I don't care if you believe the Dueterocanons aren't scripture. You risk denying the truth of Jewish history. Luther was intensely ant-Semitic.

"scripture can only quote other scripture" is your 3rd straw man fallacy.
There is no evidence that a 66 book Bible was used by any church anywhere on the planet before the 14th century.

Here is a sample of the 200 couplets previously mentioned, focusing on the Gospels:

Matt. 2:16 – Herod’s decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 – slaying the holy innocents.

Matt. 6:19-20 – Jesus’ statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 – lay up your treasure.

Matt.. 7:12 – Jesus’ golden rule “do unto others” is the converse of Tobit 4:15 – what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 – Jesus’ statement “you will know them by their fruits” follows Sirach 27:6 – the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 – the people were “like sheep without a shepherd” is same as Judith 11:19 – sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 – Jesus’ description “Lord of heaven and earth” is the same as Tobit 7:18 – Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 – Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 – Jesus’ reference to the “power of death” and “gates of Hades” references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 – Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 – the “desolating sacrilege” Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 – let those “flee to the mountains” is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.

Matt. 27:43 – if He is God’s Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 – Jesus’ description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 – description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 1:42 – Elizabeth’s declaration of Mary’s blessedness above all women follows Uzziah’s declaration in Judith 13:18.

Luke 1:52 – Mary’s magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.

Luke 2:29 – Simeon’s declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.

Luke 13:29 – the Lord’s description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.

Luke 21:24 – Jesus’ usage of “fall by the edge of the sword” follows Sirach 28:18.

Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 – Luke’s description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.

John 1:3 – all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.

John 3:13 – who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.

John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 – Jesus’, Luke’s and Paul’s usage of “signs and wonders” follows Wisdom 8:8.

John 5:18 – Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 6:35-59 – Jesus’ Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

John 10:22 – the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.

John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.

John 15:6 – branches that don’t bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.
see the full list here

The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them. However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called “Jamnia” in 90 – 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

Talk about manipulating Scripture to support the Romanist false teaching. This is ridiculous. You literally make the Bible say what you want. All the Cults do this.

Protestants stand with Judaism in not considering the Apocrypha to be Divinely inspired. They are historic religious book that are uninspired. That is why they are not included in the Jewish Scriptures or Protestant Bibles. Think about this: these are not the RC Scriptures but Jewish religious manuscripts. Jews do not embrace them as inspired, neither do we. Jesus and the NT do not corroborate them. Rome stands alone on this, as per normal. They make it up as they go, all depending on the latest whim of the latest Pope. This is false religion at its most blatant.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Heb. 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.
It's not a reference, 2 Macc. 7:1-42 is a description of what Paul teaches in Heb 11:35 that is missing in your Bible.
How can Paul be teaching about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons if he's not using scripture??? The story is 200 years old! Did Paul just make it up???

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.
What "describes" and "follows" should be obvious, if you bother to compare the texts.

How do you know he wasn't referencing some other source? You understand there were other writings besides scripture, right? And not all of them contained false information. It's not as if he couldn't reference a non-scriptural source regarding something that had occurred, such as the martyrdom of the mother and her sons.

That's an assumption you have yet to prove.

I don't need to prove anything to you.

I've never heard of someone atoning for there own sins. We repent of sins, we don't atone for them. Where did this ridiculous notion come from? Jack Chick?

Is that not what Catholics typically believe is the purpose of purgatory? If not, then what is the purpose of purgatory in your understanding?

First, give us a chance to explain why we have no "extra-biblical books" and there are no contradictions with the Deuterocanonical Books.

There are no contradictions. You keep saying that without proof.

LOL. No contradictions? That's a good one. Okay, here is some proof:

Tobit 6:5-7, “Then the angel said to him: Take out the entrails of this fish, and lay up his heart, and his gall, and his liver for thee: for these are necessary for useful medicines. 6 And when he had done so, he roasted the flesh thereof, and they took it with them in the way: the rest they salted as much as might serve them, till they came to Rages the city of the Medes. 7 Then Tobias asked the angel, and said to him: I beseech thee, brother Azarias, tell me what remedies are these things good for, which thou hast bid me keep of the fish? 8 And the angel, answering, said to him: If thou put a little piece of its heart upon coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kind of devils, either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them.”

This is describing superstition/magic/witchcraft as a way to drive "away all kind of devils". But, scripture condemns witchcraft.

Tobit 4:11 “For alms deliver from all sin, and from death, and will not suffer the soul to go into darkness.”

Tobit 12:9 “For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting.”

Alms are money or food given to the poor or needy as charity. No scripture teaches that salvation and the forgiveness of sins can be obtained by doing that. Scripture teaches that repentance and faith are required for salvation not works because otherwise we could boast about saving ourselves.

2 Maccabbees 12:43, “And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection.”

Once someone is dead their fate is sealed. There is no way of someone having their sin forgiven after they are dead. Scripture teaches that people only have judgment to look forward to after death, not a further opportunity to have their sins forgiven (Hebrews 9:27).

Judith 1:5 “Now in the twelfth year of his reign, Nabuchodonosor, king of the Assyrians, who reigned in Ninive the great city, fought against Arphaxad and overcame him.”

Baruch 6:2 “And when you are come into Babylon, you shall be there many years, and for a long time, even to seven generations: and after that I will bring you away from thence with peace.”

The book of Judith incorrectly says that Nebuchadnezzar was the king of the Assyrians when he was the king of the Babylonians.

Baruch 6:2 says the Jews would serve in Babylon for seven generations where Jeremiah 25:11 says it was for 70 years. “And this whole land shall be a desolation and a horror, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”

There are more, but this should suffice for now.

I don't care if you believe the Dueterocanons aren't scripture.

And I don't care that you don't care if I believe the Deuterocanons aren't scripture.

You risk denying the truth of Jewish history. Luther was intensely ant-Semitic.

Stop this overly dramatic nonsense. I am not anti-Semitic at all.

"scripture can only quote other scripture" is your 3rd straw man fallacy.

That is what the person I was talking to seemed to think. I was not talking to you.

The Protestants attempt to defend their rejection of the deuterocanonicals on the ground that the early Jews rejected them.

I couldn't care less about that because the early Jews weren't right about some things. So, that alone isn't a reason to reject them. I reject them because they contradict true scripture.

However, the Jewish councils that rejected them (e.g., School of Javneh (also called “Jamnia” in 90 – 100 A.D.) were the same councils that rejected the entire New Testatment canon. Thus, Protestants who reject the Catholic Bible are following a Jewish council that rejected Christ and the Revelation of the New Testament.

What you're saying here doesn't apply to me at all. I don't go by what flawed Protestants say, I go by what the Holy Spirit tells me.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, Satan's little season is time, but it's not during the time God gives the church on earth to build His Kingdom as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth. After the thousand years of time is finished, then Satan is loosed and given a little season. Satan's little season comes after the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete.

You indicated that the thousand years represents time itself, so the question I was asking is how can a period of time follow time itself? But, we don't need to discuss this any further. You either understand what I'm getting at or you don't. It's not worth spending too much time discussing it.

The time that should be no longer when the seventh angel begins to sound is time from the first advent of Christ until the days when the seventh angel begins to sound that this particular time (a thousand years) shall be no longer. The seventh angel sounds for days, because after the thousand symbolic years of time is finished, Satan still has his time called a "little season" after the Kingdom of God is complete.

Revelation 10:6-7 (KJV) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I don't believe this is talking about the seventh angel sounding his trumpet for days. I believe that is talking about the days leading up to the sounding of the seventh trumpet. I assume you agree that the last trumpet is the same as the seventh trumpet? If so, it talks about us being changed in a moment when the seventh trumpet sounds. I don't get the impression that the seventh and last trumpet could sound for multiple days.

I believe the NIV has a better translation of Revelation 10:7.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

In this translation it shows that "the days" referenced here occur just before "the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet".

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It would be hard for one to cut off their own head, but I am sure the local "John the Baptist" could perform that instead of baptizing them in water.

LOL

You don't seem to realize that in the first century it was repentance and baptism, but Jesus will baptize in fire at the Second Coming. During the 42 months of AoD it will be repentance and chopping one's head off.

LOL

 

[rwb]

You indicated that the thousand years represents time itself, so the question I was asking is how can a period of time follow time itself? But, we don't need to discuss this any further. You either understand what I'm getting at or you don't. It's not worth spending too much time discussing it.

Not time itself, but specifically time symbolized a thousand years. I believe this is time allotted the church on earth to take the Gospel unto all the world, at the same time the church suffers through persecution and great tribulation. Throughout this time the church on earth is nourished and protected when she is found faithful, but when she is found to be unfaithful then she will be attacked and persecuted by the powers that be.

This symbolic time ends when the seventh angel begins to sound because the church has finished her task of proclaiming the Gospel unto all the earth, and the Kingdom of God is complete. That is when Satan is set free for a little season, which ends with fire coming down out of heaven to destroy all that is still alive on this earth when Christ comes again.

I don't believe this is talking about the seventh angel sounding his trumpet for days.

Not that the trumpet sounds for days, the seventh angel indicates time shall be no longer because the mystery of God is finished. Saying days indicates there shall still be more days, in fact Satan's little season yet to come after the mystery (Gentiles will complete the Kingdom) is finished.

I believe the NIV has a better translation of Revelation 10:7.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.”

In this translation it shows that "the days" referenced here occur just before "the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet"

Both translations IMO are saying the same thing. The days when the seventh angel begins to sound are inclusive of this age of Gospel grace, (symbolized a thousand years) as well as Satan's little season to follow. The time that should be no longer is fulfilled and the mystery of God accomplished. That is the Kingdom of God is complete as the last Gentile to be saved has been saved. Prior to the advent of Christ, salvation of Gentiles was not known. In the beginning it was believed that salvation would be limited to Israel or Jews of faith.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not time itself, but specifically time symbolized a thousand years. I believe this is time allotted the church on earth to take the Gospel unto all the world, at the same time the church suffers through persecution and great tribulation. Throughout this time the church on earth is nourished and protected when she is found faithful, but when she is found to be unfaithful then she will be attacked and persecuted by the powers that be.

This symbolic time ends when the seventh angel begins to sound because the church has finished her task of proclaiming the Gospel unto all the earth, and the Kingdom of God is complete. That is when Satan is set free for a little season, which ends with fire coming down out of heaven to destroy all that is still alive on this earth when Christ comes again.

Not that the trumpet sounds for days, the seventh angel indicates time shall be no longer because the mystery of God is finished. Saying days indicates there shall still be more days, in fact Satan's little season yet to come after the mystery (Gentiles will complete the Kingdom) is finished.

You are saying you believe that there will be more time after the seventh trumpet sounds? If so, I disagree with that. Our bodies will be changed instantly when the seventh and last trumpet sounds. Things will happen very quickly at that point and then time will end and eternity will be ushered in. Satan's little season does not follow the sounding of the seventh trumpet, it leads up to it. I'm quite confused as to how you interpret these things even though we do basically agree on things, overall.

Both translations IMO are saying the same thing. The days when the seventh angel begins to sound are inclusive of this age of Gospel grace, (symbolized a thousand years) as well as Satan's little season to follow.

I don't understand what you're saying here. What you're saying implies that the seventh angels initially sounds his trumpet for multiple days and then Satan's little season follows after that. I don't understand that at all. Jesus will return immediately at the sounding of the seventh and last trumpet. Paul indicated that the dead in Christ will be raised when the last trumpet sounds and we all will be changed (1 Cor 15:51-52). That will happen when Christ returns. How can there still be more days and Satan's little season to follow after that?

 

[WPM]

Not time itself, but specifically time symbolized a thousand years. I believe this is time allotted the church on earth to take the Gospel unto all the world, at the same time the church suffers through persecution and great tribulation. Throughout this time the church on earth is nourished and protected when she is found faithful, but when she is found to be unfaithful then she will be attacked and persecuted by the powers that be.

This symbolic time ends when the seventh angel begins to sound because the church has finished her task of proclaiming the Gospel unto all the earth, and the Kingdom of God is complete. That is when Satan is set free for a little season, which ends with fire coming down out of heaven to destroy all that is still alive on this earth when Christ comes again.


Not that the trumpet sounds for days, the seventh angel indicates time shall be no longer because the mystery of God is finished. Saying days indicates there shall still be more days, in fact Satan's little season yet to come after the mystery (Gentiles will complete the Kingdom) is finished.



Both translations IMO are saying the same thing. The days when the seventh angel begins to sound are inclusive of this age of Gospel grace, (symbolized a thousand years) as well as Satan's little season to follow. The time that should be no longer is fulfilled and the mystery of God accomplished. That is the Kingdom of God is complete as the last Gentile to be saved has been saved. Prior to the advent of Christ, salvation of Gentiles was not known. In the beginning it was believed that salvation would be limited to Israel or Jews of faith.

But the last trump is the end. The detail attached it could not be more climatic.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Hey, genius, that is only your opinion that they are referenced in New Testament scripture.

No, it's a FACT - and I gave you examples.

A thousand denials doesn't amount to a SINGLE fact . . .

I don't believe he was referencing those passages specifically and you have no evidence to prove that. It's just your assumption.

It's irrelevant whether YOU believe or not.
That FACTS are there . . .

I know what is true or not by way of the Holy Spirit who lives in me. There is nothing blind about the trust I have in the word of God. There are things taught in your stupid extrabiblical books that contradict scripture. Such as the idea of someone atoning for their own sin. That contradicts a lot of scripture because NT scripture repeatedly teaches about how only the blood of Christ can atone for sin. All we can do is acknowledge that fact and put our faith and trust in Him. There is nothing tangible that we can do to atone for our sins. This doctrine shows a complete lack of understanding of God's grace and a lack of understanding that we are not saved by works. Why are you okay with believing in things that are taught in your extrabiblical books that contradict what is taught in the New Testament?

So, when YOU interpret something that is total at odds with the Protestant church down the street – WHO is right? Do you believe t6hat the Holy Spirit is confusing people on purpose – or that ONE or BOTH of you may be wrong?

When Matt. 18:15-18 tells you to go to the CHURCH to settle these matters – WHERE do you go? Your church or your neighbor’s church??

I honestly don't care. All I know is that they clearly did the right thing because it makes no sense to have books within the Bible that contradict what is taught in other books of the Bible.

Uhhhh, you SHOULD care.
Allow me to educate you . . .

After the destruction of Jerusalem, a group of Rabbis established a rabbinical school in the Jewish city of at Jabneh (or Jamnia). It became center for Jewish political and religious political thought. Because the Temple had been destroyed in 70 AD – this school led by Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137) redefined certain aspects of Judaism until the Temple could be restored.

One of the things discussed was use of the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) by early Christians.

They decided to eject 7 Books (and portions of Esther and Daniel) that they felt were “uninspired”. They provided a new Greek translation because the early Christians were converting the Jews using the Septuagint, which was compiled about 200 years before the birth of Christ. According to historical sources, the rabbinical gathering at Jabneh was not even an "official" council with binding authority to make such a decision. It can be clearly shown that Jesus and the Apostles studied and quoted from these 7 Books. In the New Testament, we see almost 200 references to them.

The main advocate for removing the 7 Deuterocanonical Books was Rabbi Akiba, who was also known for proclaiming that a man named Simon Bar Kokhba was the “real” Messiah during the 2nd Jewish Revolt (circa 132 AD). It was during THIS time that the Jewish Canon had still been an OPEN Canon during the life of Christ was closed.

So, your Protestant Fathers chose to go with a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon of Scripture that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who proclaimed a FALSE “Christ” (Kokhba).

That is a lie. They are not quoted 200 times. I don't believe they are quoted at all. But, even if they were quoted at all, there is nothing wrong with quoting something that is true even if something else contained within the same book is false. Truth is truth regardless.

Jude quoted from the book of Enoch.

Jude 14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Yet, the book of Enoch is not in your Bible and not considered Scripture by Catholics. So much for your idea that scripture can only quote other scripture.

Once again – it doesn’t matter if YIU believe them to be Scripture.
JESUS considered the Scripture.

The 7 Deuterocanonical Books were one considered the “Word of God” by the Jews and were part of the open Jewish Canon that Jesus and the apostles studied from.

As I showed you above – they were removed largely for political reasons and nothing else by the false prophet Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph.

 

[WPM]

No, it's a FACT - and I gave you examples.

A thousand denials doesn't amount to a SINGLE fact . . .

It's irrelevant whether YOU believe or not.
That FACTS are there . . .

So, when YOU interpret something that is total at odds with the Protestant church down the street – WHO is right? Do you believe t6hat the Holy Spirit is confusing people on purpose – or that ONE or BOTH of you may be wrong?

When Matt. 18:15-18 tells you to go to the CHURCH to settle these matters – WHERE do you go? Your church or your neighbor’s church??

Uhhhh, you SHOULD care.
Allow me to educate you . . .

After the destruction of Jerusalem, a group of Rabbis established a rabbinical school in the Jewish city of at Jabneh (or Jamnia). It became center for Jewish political and religious political thought. Because the Temple had been destroyed in 70 AD – this school led by Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137) redefined certain aspects of Judaism until the Temple could be restored.

One of the things discussed was use of the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) by early Christians.

They decided to eject 7 Books (and portions of Esther and Daniel) that they felt were “uninspired”. They provided a new Greek translation because the early Christians were converting the Jews using the Septuagint, which was compiled about 200 years before the birth of Christ. According to historical sources, the rabbinical gathering at Jabneh was not even an "official" council with binding authority to make such a decision. It can be clearly shown that Jesus and the Apostles studied and quoted from these 7 Books. In the New Testament, we see almost 200 references to them.

The main advocate for removing the 7 Deuterocanonical Books was Rabbi Akiba, who was also known for proclaiming that a man named Simon Bar Kokhba was the “real” Messiah during the 2nd Jewish Revolt (circa 132 AD). It was during THIS time that the Jewish Canon had still been an OPEN Canon during the life of Christ was closed.

So, your Protestant Fathers chose to go with a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon of Scripture that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who proclaimed a FALSE “Christ” (Kokhba).

Once again – it doesn’t matter if YIU believe them to be Scripture.
JESUS considered the Scripture.

The 7 Deuterocanonical Books were one considered the “Word of God” by the Jews and were part of the open Jewish Canon that Jesus and the apostles studied from.

As I showed you above – they were removed largely for political reasons and nothing else by the false prophet Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph.

More skewed opinions, false statements and zero evidence. You are digging a deeper hole for yourself. Stop digging!!!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No, it's a FACT - and I gave you examples.

A thousand denials doesn't amount to a SINGLE fact . . .

It's irrelevant whether YOU believe or not.
That FACTS are there . . .

No matter how many times you say it, your OPINIONS are not FACTS.

So, when YOU interpret something that is total at odds with the Protestant church down the street – WHO is right?

Obviously, I would believe that I am right and they are wrong. Any other easy questions you'd like to ask me?

Do you believe t6hat the Holy Spirit is confusing people on purpose – or that ONE or BOTH of you may be wrong?

No, I don't believe the Holy Spirit would ever confuse people on purpose. It's always possible that one or both people may be wrong about something. So? Do you actually have a point here or did you just feel like saying things that are obvious?

When Matt. 18:15-18 tells you to go to the CHURCH to settle these matters – WHERE do you go? Your church or your neighbor’s church??

LOL. You truly are clueless. The church is not a building or a denomination. It is the body of Christ. I can go to others in the body of Christ/the church wherever they are.

Uhhhh, you SHOULD care.

Don't tell me what I should care about. That isn't up to you, a person who believes in many foolish doctrines, to decide.

Allow me to educate you . . .

You are not capable of educating me on anything. You have already proven that.

After the destruction of Jerusalem, a group of Rabbis established a rabbinical school in the Jewish city of at Jabneh (or Jamnia). It became center for Jewish political and religious political thought. Because the Temple had been destroyed in 70 AD – this school led by Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137) redefined certain aspects of Judaism until the Temple could be restored.

One of the things discussed was use of the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) by early Christians.

They decided to eject 7 Books (and portions of Esther and Daniel) that they felt were “uninspired”. They provided a new Greek translation because the early Christians were converting the Jews using the Septuagint, which was compiled about 200 years before the birth of Christ. According to historical sources, the rabbinical gathering at Jabneh was not even an "official" council with binding authority to make such a decision. It can be clearly shown that Jesus and the Apostles studied and quoted from these 7 Books. In the New Testament, we see almost 200 references to them.

The main advocate for removing the 7 Deuterocanonical Books was Rabbi Akiba, who was also known for proclaiming that a man named Simon Bar Kokhba was the “real” Messiah during the 2nd Jewish Revolt (circa 132 AD). It was during THIS time that the Jewish Canon had still been an OPEN Canon during the life of Christ was closed.

So, your Protestant Fathers chose to go with a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon of Scripture that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who proclaimed a FALSE “Christ” (Kokhba).

Once again – it doesn’t matter if YIU believe them to be Scripture.
JESUS considered the Scripture.

The 7 Deuterocanonical Books were one considered the “Word of God” by the Jews and were part of the open Jewish Canon that Jesus and the apostles studied from.

As I showed you above – they were removed largely for political reasons and nothing else by the false prophet Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph.

Yawn. There are things contained in those books that contradict true scripture. That is the reason I reject your fake Bible. I don't care about these other people. They happened to get it right in this case in terms of recognizing that those books are not scripture, but I don't put those people on a pedestal as if they were right about everything they did or believed.

So, what I'm telling you, if you're not getting the point here, is that I would reject those 7 books whether those people had removed them or not because they contain things that contradict true scripture. Understand? Because I don't need other people to tell me what is true or not in what was written. I only need the Holy Spirit to tell me that.

 

[St. SteVen]

Uhhhh, you SHOULD care.
Allow me to educate you . . .

After the destruction of Jerusalem, a group of Rabbis established a rabbinical school in the Jewish city of at Jabneh (or Jamnia). It became center for Jewish political and religious political thought. Because the Temple had been destroyed in 70 AD – this school led by Rabbi Akiba ben Joseph (A.D. 37-137) redefined certain aspects of Judaism until the Temple could be restored.

One of the things discussed was use of the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) by early Christians.

They decided to eject 7 Books (and portions of Esther and Daniel) that they felt were “uninspired”. They provided a new Greek translation because the early Christians were converting the Jews using the Septuagint, which was compiled about 200 years before the birth of Christ. According to historical sources, the rabbinical gathering at Jabneh was not even an "official" council with binding authority to make such a decision. It can be clearly shown that Jesus and the Apostles studied and quoted from these 7 Books. In the New Testament, we see almost 200 references to them.

The main advocate for removing the 7 Deuterocanonical Books was Rabbi Akiba, who was also known for proclaiming that a man named Simon Bar Kokhba was the “real” Messiah during the 2nd Jewish Revolt (circa 132 AD). It was during THIS time that the Jewish Canon had still been an OPEN Canon during the life of Christ was closed.

So, your Protestant Fathers chose to go with a POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon of Scripture that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who proclaimed a FALSE “Christ” (Kokhba).

That's very interesting, thanks.

Helps to explain why OT quotes in the NT are misquotes.
(they quote the Septuagint rather than our OT canon) ???

What impact has the "POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon of Scripture",
that you referenced in your last paragraph quoted above, had on the church?
Or, more specifically, the Protestant churches.

 

[St. SteVen]

One of the things discussed was use of the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint) by early Christians.

Sheds a different light on this verse. What was "all scripture" when this was written?

2 Timothy 3:16 NIV
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

 

[BreadOfLife]

That would be you. I was talking to you and telling you that you are judging. So, you must have very poor reading comprehension skills if you still can't figure out who's judging.

Your paranoia is getting the best of you . . .

How does them being in heaven make them more alive than us? That's silly. Also, they have not been made perfect yet in the sense of how scripture talks about us being made perfect. Being made perfect involves having their bodies resurrected and changed to be immortal and perfect. That hasn't happened yet. That will happen at the last trumpet when Christ returns in the future.

They’re perfect because their will is in perfect line with God’s and they are unable to sin.
YOU ain’t there yet . . .

It was a funny response because I turned your nonsense back around on you. LOL.

Yes, if er were six year-olds.

That’s why I likened it to a “Sesame Street” response, Einstein .

Show me where scripture teaches about this "Particular Judgement" that you are referencing. What does it entail exactly?

In the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man – Lazarus goes to the Bosom of Abraham while the Rich Man goes to a place of suffering. Heaven is not yet open at this time because Jesus had not yet died and resurrected.

This presupposes a particular Judgement because they one was rewarded and the other condemned.

The thief on the cross is yet another example of immediate judgement because he was told by Jesus that he would be in “Paradise” that very day.

Says the guy who believes in complete nonsense like purgatory and praying to and for the dead. LOL. The scales are clearly very thick on your eyes.

Can YOU tell me when those members of the Body of Christ in Heaven were kicked out of the Body of Christ??
I didn’t think so . . .

Rev. 5:8 shows the Elders in Heaven TAKING our prayers before God.

LOL. That is hilarious. You don't even know what Scripture is. That is clearly the case since you include what are very obviously not books of Scripture as Scripture.

THIS, coming from a guy who follows that same OT Canon of Scripture that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who declared a FALE Christ (Simon Kokhbar).

Good job, Einstein . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

After the Cross, many do not even have to taste death. Their appointment with death was eradicated on the Cross. The judgment was the judgment of the Cross. Just because God appoints one thing, does not rule out God's escape clause.

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

You forgot the next verse that is the escape clause.

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Those in Christ will never die and face the judgment. Physical death is moving from death into life everlasting. The only death those who are redeemed face is this dead corruptible flesh. The judgment was satisfied on the Cross.

There is only two places to go. Suffer loss does not mean to suffer. It means to have no reward to give back to the Lamb of God, who suffered in our place.

WRONG.
EVERYBODY must go through Judgement – even those in Christ.

Jesus illustrates what this will be like for them:
Matt. 25:34-40
Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

 

[WPM]

No matter how many times you say it, your OPINIONS are not FACTS.


Obviously, I would believe that I am right and they are wrong. Any other easy questions you'd like to ask me?


No, I don't believe the Holy Spirit would ever confuse people on purpose. It's always possible that one or both people may be wrong about something. So? Do you actually have a point here or did you just feel like saying things that are obvious?


LOL. You truly are clueless. The church is not a building or a denomination. It is the body of Christ. I can go to others in the body of Christ/the church wherever they are.


Don't tell me what I should care about. That isn't up to you, a person who believes in many foolish doctrines, to decide.


You are not capable of educating me on anything. You have already proven that.


Yawn. There are things contained in those books that contradict true scripture. That is the reason I reject your fake Bible. I don't care about these other people. They happened to get it right in this case in terms of recognizing that those books are not scripture, but I don't put those people on a pedestal as if they were right about everything they did or believed.

So, what I'm telling you, if you're not getting the point here, is that I would reject those 7 books whether those people had removed them or not because they contain things that contradict true scripture. Understand? Because I don't need other people to tell me what is true or not in what was written. I only need the Holy Spirit to tell me that.

Bro, he is totally winging it. He cannot even acknowledge the epidemic of priest child abuse sweeping his "church." All he can do is deflect: what-about-ery. He claims some unknown academic to support his cover-up. The Scriptures he gives are butchered to say something they do not. He also thinks if he voices a false opinion enough times it becomes a fact.

 

[WPM]

WRONG.
EVERYBODY must go through Judgement – even those in Christ.

Jesus illustrates what this will be like for them:
Matt. 25:34-40
Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

LOL. Where does this text mention Purgatory? You have presented nothing yet to support what the Pope has taught you. The papacy is teaching you false doctrine. You are being deceived by it!!!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your paranoia is getting the best of you . . .

LOL. No paranoia here, buddy. Just continue on with your ridiculous rhetoric if you want, but I'm getting bored with your nonsense.

They’re perfect because their will is in perfect line with God’s and they are unable to sin.
YOU ain’t there yet . . .

If that's the sense you want to talk about it, then, sure, I am not at that point yet since I'm obviously still alive. But, when scripture talks about being made perfect in Hebrews 11 it says it can't happen for the Old Testament believers apart from us, so it's talking about all of us having our bodies perfected and made immortal in the future at the last trumpet when Christ returns.

Yes, if er were six year-olds.

That’s why I likened it to a “Sesame Street” response, Einstein .

Look, pal, I've had about enough of your nonsense. This is a waste of time. Everyone here can see that you are full of hot air and have no clue as to what you are talking about. I don't need to spend time convincing anyone that there are many false doctrines in Catholicism. That is obvious. So, let's wrap this up, kid.

In the Parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man – Lazarus goes to the Bosom of Abraham while the Rich Man goes to a place of suffering. Heaven is not yet open at this time because Jesus had not yet died and resurrected.

This presupposes a particular Judgement because they one was rewarded and the other condemned.

The thief on the cross is yet another example of immediate judgement because he was told by Jesus that he would be in “Paradise” that very day.

If you want to call that a judgment, go ahead, but I have been talking in terms of the future judgment day at which time all people will be gathered before Christ to give an account of themselves and after which each person will either inherit "eternal life" in the kingdom prepared for believers from the foundation of the world or they will be cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels, as recorded in Matthew 25:31-46.

Can YOU tell me when those members of the Body of Christ in Heaven were kicked out of the Body of Christ??
I didn’t think so . . .

Why would I tell you something like that when it obviously isn't true? You waste so much time making straw man arguments. That's time that you can't get back.

Rev. 5:8 shows the Elders in Heaven TAKING our prayers before God.

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.

This is symbolic language. Do you actually think that God needs people in heaven to bring Him the prayers of people who are praying here on earth? How would that even work in a literal sense? That would be nonsense. We can pray to God directly and He hears us. Are you somehow not aware of that? In the Lord's prayer that Jesus gave the disciples when He told them how they should pray, who did He say to pray to? People in heaven? No, the Father. The Father hears our prayers. We don't need anyone to get our prayers and deliver them to the Father. You are taking that verse way too literally. Kind of like your ridiculous interpretation of literally eating Christ's body and literally drinking His blood.

THIS, coming from a guy who follows that same OT Canon of Scripture that was declared by a FALSE Prophet (Akiva) who declared a FALE Christ (Simon Kokhbar).

Good job, Einstein . . .

I don't follow any false prophet, I follow Christ. Do you understand....Einstein?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Sheds a different light on this verse. What was "all scripture" when this was written?

2 Timothy 3:16 NIV
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

It includes all of the Old Testament (we obviously don't all agree on what is included in that) and it included any of Paul's letters that he had written up to that point since Peter made it clear that even back then it was understood that Paul's letters were scripture.

2 Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That's very interesting, thanks.

Helps to explain why OT quotes in the NT are misquotes.
(they quote the Septuagint rather than our OT canon) ???

What impact has the "POST-Christ, POST-Temple Canon of Scripture",
that you referenced in your last paragraph quoted above, had on the church?
Or, more specifically, the Protestant churches.

Well, the mere fact that the very Books that Jesus Himself studied from and considered "Scripture" are being referred to as "Satanic Books" on this form speaks VOLUMES about the many renegade opinions within Protestantism.

I would NOT want to be in the position of telling God that His Books are "Satanic . . ."