22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

Errors in the Apocrypha​

by Matt Slick | Feb 17, 2018 | Roman Catholicism, World Religions
The Apocrypha (απόκρυφα means “hidden”) is a set of books written between approximately 400 B.C. and the time of Christ that is rejected by Protestants and officially accepted by the Roman Catholic Church in 1546 as being inspired. These books are Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (also known as Ecclesiasticus), and Baruch.
But if the Apocrypha is a Scripture, then it should not have any errors. But since it does have errors, as will be demonstrated below, this puts into question whether or not the Roman Catholic Church has properly used its self-proclaimed position as the teaching authority of the Christian Church. If it can error in such an important manner as what is Scripture, can it be trusted to properly teach the Christian Church? The following references can be verified at http://www.newadvent.org/bible.

Problems in the Apocrypha​

When we look into the Apocrypha itself, we find numerous problems. For example, we see it advocating magic where the smoke of a fish heart on a fire drives away devils.

Condones the use of magic​

Tobit 6:5-7, “Then the angel said to him: Take out the entrails of this fish, and lay up his heart, and his gall, and his liver for thee: for these are necessary for useful medicines. 6 And when he had done so, he roasted the flesh thereof, and they took it with them in the way: the rest they salted as much as might serve them, till they came to Rages the city of the Medes. 7 Then Tobias asked the angel, and said to him: I beseech thee, brother Azarias, tell me what remedies are these things good for, which thou hast bid me keep of the fish? 8 And the angel, answering, said to him: If thou put a little piece of its heart upon coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kind of devils, either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them.”
Is it true that the smoke from a fish’s heart, when burned, drives away evil spirits? Of course not. Such a superstitious teaching has no place in the word of God.

Teaches that forgiveness of sins is by human effort.​

Salvation by works:

• Tobit 4:11, “For alms deliver from all sin, and from death, and will not suffer the soul to go into darkness.”
• Tobit 12:9, “For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting.”

We know from Scripture that alms (money or food given to the poor or needy as charity) does not purge our sins. The blood of Christ is what cleanses us – not money or food given to poor people. “But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin,” (1 John 1:7).

Money as an offering for the sins of the dead:

2 Maccabbees 12:43, “And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection.”

Can anyone truly accept that money isn’t offering for the sins of dead people? Such a superstitious and unbiblical concept has no place in Scripture.

Historical Errors​

Wrong historical facts:

• Judith 1:5, “Now in the twelfth year of his reign, Nabuchodonosor, king of the Assyrians, who reigned in Ninive the great city, fought against Arphaxad and overcame him.”
• Baruch 6:2, “And when you are come into Babylon, you shall be there many years, and for a long time, even to seven generations: and after that I will bring you away from thence with peace.”

The book of Judith incorrectly says that Nebuchadnezzar was the king of the Assyrians when he was the king of the Babylonians.1

Baruch 6:2 says the Jews would serve in Babylon for seven generations where Jer. 25:11 says it was for 70 years. “And this whole land shall be a desolation and a horror, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”

Conclusion​

Obviously, the Apocrypha has serious problems. From magic to salvation by works, to money as an offering for the sins of the dead, and blatant incorrect historical facts – it is full of false and unbiblical teachings. It isn’t inspired by God. Likewise, neither is the Roman Catholic Church, which has stated the Apocrypha is inspired. This shows the Roman Catholic Church is not the means by which God is communicating his truth to his people, that the Magisterium has erred greatly, and that it is infested with man’s false tradition rather than God’s absolute truth.

Why did you post this to me? I'm not the one claiming those books are scripture. Or were you just trying to support what I had said about them?

 

[Truth7t7]

Why did you post this to me? I'm not the one claiming those books are scripture. Or were you just trying to support what I had said about them?

Supporting your argument that I agree with

 

[Timtofly]

Those who die during Satan's little season shall be all who are called Gog (antichrists) and Magog (antichristians). Satan will not be freed until TIME (a thousand years) shall be no longer. That is symbolically referring to the whole age of Gospel grace given the church to proclaim Christ unto all the nations of the world. Once the age of Gospel grace has ended, there will be no more alive on the earth to be saved. Then the Kingdom of God will be complete.

Some believers still alive when Christ comes again may physically die or be killed during Satan's little season, but they shall not be alive on this earth when God sends down fire from heaven to devour everything and everyone still alive upon the earth on that day. Believers shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the air before the wrath of God is poured out after Satan's little season.

The living martyred souls John says are alive, are the living souls of those who have been martyred for their faith. They were martyred during their lifetimes, that is symbolically written a thousand years. That's why John says, "they LIVED and REIGNED with Christ a thousand years." We know a thousand years symbolizes the age of Gospel grace because John writes of future believers or others who will also "reign with him a thousand years". John is depicting all the faithful who have lived and died with Christ and all who shall live with Christ during this time he writes "a thousand years."

John also shows the fate of "the rest of the dead", or those who never during their life live or reign with Christ. They shall not live again until time (a thousand years) may be finished. Then they shall be bodily resurrected from the graves to stand before God at the GWT and judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life. Then they will all be cast into the lake of fire that is the second death.

That is the problem, because they are beheaded in your "alleged little season". That is when the beast, the FP, and the image are on the earth. Those 42 months are when they died. They are not church members and never were. Church members don't chop their head off to avoid the mark. Church members don't chop off their head to be saved. These beheaded people did both. Church members don't stand in front of thrones (the church) and get judged. The church is the one doing the judging, not being judged. The church was judged in Christ on the Cross. Church members don't live and reign after this judgment. These beheaded do live and reign after this judgment. Church members have been in Paradise since the thief on the Cross entered Paradise that day.

Those beheaded never go to Paradise. All they get is their head back and a home near Jerusalem, to live and reign a thousand years on earth. The church is not on the earth during the Millennium. They remain in Paradise until they descend from heaven in the New Jerusalem. Those beheaded stay on the New Earth, outside of the New Jerusalem. The church gets to sit on thrones and judge over the earth. Those beheaded are some of the souls they do judge.

Yes, I agree! They are alive in heaven after they have died in Christ because during their lifetimes "they lived" and "reigned" with Christ, which means in life they have part in the resurrection life of Christ who is the "first resurrection", the first to resurrect from the dead to die no more. We MUST be born again to both know and enter the spiritual Kingdom of God. We have to be physically alive to partake of Christ through His Spirit in us when we are born again. That is when we who were spiritually dead in trespasses and sins were made spiritually alive through Christ's Spirit in us. And we have spiritual life through the resurrection life of Christ, who is the "first resurrection."

You have the wrong dead people. You are talking about those in the past. In Revelation 20:4, these people are alive today, and miss the church rapture at the Second Coming. They have to chop off their heads to avoid the second death. All who receive the mark are cast into the LOF sooner or later. These beheaded cut off their heads to avoid the mark.

"I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

The reason they no longer had a head was the same reason people are baptized today. As a witness to their testimony they accepted Jesus and for the Word of God. They refused to worship Satan's empire, and receive the mark. Their testimony was having their head chopped off. Then after Armageddon, they as bodiless souls, stood before the church, those thrones of judgement, and the ruling handed down was a physical resurrection and reigning with Christ on earth for a thousand years.

You have them reigning with Christ before they are beheaded and then still reigning after being beheaded, without a physical resurrection, until the thousand ( x number of years) are over. You don't even have them all as beheaded souls, but all who physically die whenever in the last 1993 years years.

No verse says, they make it to heaven, not even as souls. You do realize that souls in the OT never went to heaven upon physical death?

These beheaded are compared to the rest of the dead in those 3 verses. For all we know, they could have had to spend years, months, and days in sheol until those 42 months are over. At the least Abraham's bosom. We are never told they ever entered heaven. There have never been headless souls, ever in history, walking around Paradise waiting for judgment so they can even experience the first resurrection. You have them mixed in with the redeemed, as if you failed to read how they even died.

No one since the Cross entered Paradise without a physical body, and certainly not without a head. And no one in Paradise is waiting for a judgment to receive their head and physical body back. That judgment was covered by the Cross, and for the redeemed, the first resurrection is automatic and instantly without question or judgment immediately when the soul leaves Adam's dead corruptible flesh, and enters God's permanent incorruptible physical body.

The first resurrection was available for the thief on the Cross. He had a physical body in Paradise that day. No one living that day could prevent that first resurrection from happening. Many came out of their graves that day, and never physically died again, after that first resurrection. They are immune to the second death, and have reigned physically, seated together with Christ in heavenly places, Paradise. Not sure why so many living in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, want to prevent those already in Paradise, that first resurrection, that Paul clearly stated no one alive on earth could ever prevent.

Paul says they will rise first. It is over 1900 years later, and they did, still do, and will continue to rise first. Paul did, and can no longer be one of those alive and remain on the earth at the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you read your own posts? If so, do they make any sense to you? They certainly make no sense to me and I'm pretty sure they make no sense to anyone else. This is just pure nonsense. And you once again are misrepresenting what someone else believes. He does not have "7 accounts of creation, being handed back to God, in the book of Revelation". Where do you come up with nonsense like that?

You say it is the same event from the Cross to handing back creation to God viewed at 7 different camera angles.

 

[rwb]

That is the problem, because they are beheaded in your "alleged little season".

No silly, they are beheaded after they "have LIVED and REIGNED with Christ a thousand years." That's not during the "little season". It's during their lifetimes. They were martyred for their faith while physically alive in TIME, symbolized a thousand years! Satan will not have his "little season" until TIME, symbolized a thousand years have finished.

In Revelation 20:4, these people are alive today, and miss the church rapture at the Second Coming.

This too is silly! How can they be alive today since they had already been martyred when John wrote the Revelation? Now if you mean they are alive in heaven because they lived and reigned with Christ in TIME (a thousand years), then I agree they are today, as they were when John wrote, living (spiritual) souls. Their bodies will be physically resurrected to immortality and incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds, and they are physically caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That's when these martyred spiritual souls will be re-united with changed physical bodies to live with Christ forever on the new earth.

They have to chop off their heads to avoid the second death.

You really are cracking me up! They chop off their own heads??? More and more silliness with every new reply from you. To be martyred means they were beheaded by someone else, they did not chop off their own heads! Otherwise, it would be suicide, not martyrdom. And John plainly states to overcome the second death one must have part in the first resurrection, not beheading.

I really couldn't read any more of your reply, my ribs were aching to much from laughing...sorry!

 

[Timtofly]

Sooooo - YOU'RE saying that people goo to Heaven or Hell WITHOUT being judged??

PROVE that from Scripture . . .

After the Cross, many do not even have to taste death. Their appointment with death was eradicated on the Cross. The judgment was the judgment of the Cross. Just because God appoints one thing, does not rule out God's escape clause.

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

You forgot the next verse that is the escape clause.

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."

Those in Christ will never die and face the judgment. Physical death is moving from death into life everlasting. The only death those who are redeemed face is this dead corruptible flesh. The judgment was satisfied on the Cross.

There is only two places to go. Suffer loss does not mean to suffer. It means to have no reward to give back to the Lamb of God, who suffered in our place.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No silly, they are beheaded after they "have LIVED and REIGNED with Christ a thousand years." That's not during the "little season". It's during their lifetimes. They were martyred for their faith while physically alive in TIME, symbolized a thousand years! Satan will not have his "little season" until TIME, symbolized a thousand years have finished.

But his little season will be an actual period of time, so how can it occur after time is finished? That's something I can't understand about your particular understanding of the thousand years.

This too is silly! How can they be alive today since they had already been martyred when John wrote the Revelation? Now if you mean they are alive in heaven because they lived and reigned with Christ in TIME (a thousand years), then I agree they are today, as they were when John wrote, living (spiritual) souls. Their bodies will be physically resurrected to immortality and incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds, and they are physically caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That's when these martyred spiritual souls will be re-united with changed physical bodies to live with Christ forever on the new earth.

Agree.

You really are cracking me up! They chop off their own heads??? More and more silliness with every new reply from you.

That one cracks me up every time. He has said that before a few times in the past. I mean, where does he come up with this stuff? Just in his own mind, I guess. I've never seen anyone else say anything wacky like that.

To be martyred means they were beheaded by someone else, they did not chop off their own heads!

This is obvious to everyone except him. How can he think it's saying they chop their own heads off? LOL!

Otherwise, it would be suicide, not martyrdom.

Exactly. How can he miss something so obvious? Yet, he does often.

And John plainly states to overcome the second death one must have part in the first resurrection, not beheading.

I really couldn't read any more of your reply, my ribs were aching to much from laughing...sorry!

Very understandable. He has some beliefs like this that are just hilarious and you can only laugh at it. It can't be taken seriously at all.

 

[rwb]

But his little season will be an actual period of time, so how can it occur after time is finished? That's something I can't understand about your particular understanding of the thousand years.

Yes, Satan's little season is time, but it's not during the time God gives the church on earth to build His Kingdom as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth. After the thousand years of time is finished, then Satan is loosed and given a little season. Satan's little season comes after the spiritual Kingdom of God is complete.

The time that should be no longer when the seventh angel begins to sound is time from the first advent of Christ until the days when the seventh angel begins to sound that this particular time (a thousand years) shall be no longer. The seventh angel sounds for days, because after the thousand symbolic years of time is finished, Satan still has his time called a "little season" after the Kingdom of God is complete.

Revelation 10:6-7 (KJV) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[Timtofly]

According to the FBI and Insurance statistics outlined in the book Pedophiles and Priests by PROTESTANT author, Philip Jenkins - the problem is FAR WORSE in Protestant circles.

The Catholic Church got all of the lawsuits because every diocese is insured - and THAT'S what the lawyers went after. Conversely, MAY Protestant churches are smaller and there is no money to be had - so the lawyers stayed away.

READ the headlines I posted . . .

You think sin only belongs to one denomination? You said far worse. How can a small percentage be the norm?

Sin is not based on insurance companies. That mentality just means the catholic church can pay people off and cover up way more sin. You refuted your own point. The reason why we don't hear about the sins of the catholic church is because they are swept under the rug instead of publicized. That does not mean that sin does not happen.

I never said any denomination is perfect.

 

[Timtofly]

I've already explained this to you!!! If I continue to repeat myself again and again, will it make any difference to you? We both know it won't so stop asking me to repeat ad nauseum the same things over and over.

Yet you give no example of these repeated camera views where Revelation repeats the same thing over and over. You could at lest repeat the facts 7 times as proof.

But then again, I would show you that Revelation is a chronological systematic removal of humanity from the earth after the Second Coming. Matthew 13 calls it the final harvest.

In the Seals 25% are removed. In the Trumpets another 33% are removed. In the Thunders....... In the vials 100% are removed. If you start out with 8 billion people at each step 2 billion people are removed. The only part of the equation missing is the 50% in the Thunders, and we are not told anything about them. That would make your 8th camera view, but who is really counting, if they cannot even give 7 angles.

The point is, the book is in chronological order, and nothing anyone says can change that. The church is removed first. Then Israel. Then the nations. The only people left are those with the mark, and those no longer having their heads attached. That covers every last soul on earth. And it does not happen in a twinkling of an eye. That is why Amil need history repeated 7 times, instead of seeing the book of Revelation as the final harvest.

 

[covenantee]

So Scripture stole someone's interpretation and forced it on others?

The RCC uses Scripture just like you do. You both are wrong, so you can't use that as an excuse for bad theology.

So you conjured your own interpretations which are alien to historic orthodox Christianity.

Yours don't use Scripture, which is why you cannot demonstrate support from historic orthodox Christianity.

 

[covenantee]

The OT was fulfilled, and made obsolete.

True. What fulfilled it and made it obsolete?

 

[WPM]

That is the General Judgement - not the Particular Judgement, which happens immediately after death.

What are you talking about? Where does the Bible teach a "Particular Judgement"? That can only be found in the Pope's imagination.

 

[WPM]

Soooo – YOU believe that Jesus and the Apostles studied from “Satanic” books??
Is THAT what you’re saying??

As I stated earlier – there are almost 200 quotes and references to the 7 Deuterocanonical Books in the New Testament that were removed by your Protestant Fathers. They include Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Sirach, 1 &2 Maccabees, Wisdom.

Do you know WHY they removed them? Why were they okay for Jesus and the NT writers to study from – but NOT your Protestant Fathers??

Here are TWO examples from the NT that reference these Books:
Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

And YOU call this “Satanic”??

Instead of making your farfetched claims, quote the passages word for word, if you dare, and let us examine your claims. We are definitely not going to take the Pope's word for it.

 

[WPM]

According to the FBI and Insurance statistics outlined in the book Pedophiles and Priests by PROTESTANT author, Philip Jenkins - the problem is FAR WORSE in Protestant circles.

The Catholic Church got all of the lawsuits because every diocese is insured - and THAT'S what the lawyers went after. Conversely, MAY Protestant churches are smaller and there is no money to be had - so the lawyers stayed away.

READ the headlines I posted . . .

You may hear of the occasional Protestant sexual scandal within a denomination, but it is a perverted epidemic in the Romanist "church." Ask Catholics. They readily admit this. They are ashamed of it. Your fervent defense of institutional child abuse within the RCC is breathtaking. You are a defender of tens of thousands of pervert priests violating the innocence of tens of thousands of little children is so wicked. Check the news archives. It is rampant with these countless sodomite priests in every nation. You are living in denial, like your Pope.

We unreservedly denounce any Protestant failures. You defend the gross perversion eating Catholicism apart. Keep it up. This arrogant attitude is why millions are exiting the Catholic "church." Keep it up. You are doing us a favor by your justification of the corruption of your leaders.

 

[Timtofly]

No silly, they are beheaded after they "have LIVED and REIGNED with Christ a thousand years." That's not during the "little season". It's during their lifetimes. They were martyred for their faith while physically alive in TIME, symbolized a thousand years! Satan will not have his "little season" until TIME, symbolized a thousand years have finished.



This too is silly! How can they be alive today since they had already been martyred when John wrote the Revelation? Now if you mean they are alive in heaven because they lived and reigned with Christ in TIME (a thousand years), then I agree they are today, as they were when John wrote, living (spiritual) souls. Their bodies will be physically resurrected to immortality and incorruptible when the last trumpet sounds, and they are physically caught up to meet the Lord in the air. That's when these martyred spiritual souls will be re-united with changed physical bodies to live with Christ forever on the new earth.



You really are cracking me up! They chop off their own heads??? More and more silliness with every new reply from you. To be martyred means they were beheaded by someone else, they did not chop off their own heads! Otherwise, it would be suicide, not martyrdom. And John plainly states to overcome the second death one must have part in the first resurrection, not beheading.

I really couldn't read any more of your reply, my ribs were aching to much from laughing...sorry!

It would be hard for one to cut off their own head, but I am sure the local "John the Baptist" could perform that instead of baptizing them in water.

You don't seem to realize that in the first century it was repentance and baptism, but Jesus will baptize in fire at the Second Coming. During the 42 months of AoD it will be repentance and chopping one's head off. Baptism by fire. Did you think beheaded meant something else?

They were not beheaded when John sent the 7 letters to the 7 churches. But at least you are the first consistent Amil who sticks to their belief and claim they were beheaded in the first century. They were beheaded in the time the FP and the beast were in control of the throne in Jerusalem with Satan. The 42 months of AoD. Satan has 42 months prior to being bound. That is not the little season after he is unbound.

You say these beheaded souls reigned with Christ for a thousand years and then physically died. Did their bodies not have heads, or just their soul's. Because the verse states they were dead first and then they reigned with Christ, but since you claim the book is not chronological, that verse must not be chronological either. John must have wrote it in reverse order?

A soul that has been beheaded means the body already physically died, not that they died a thousand years after being beheaded. Or is this a prophecy that after living on earth for a thousand years they will be beheaded? Which part of this verse is so silly, you cannot see the order of progression?

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

 

[Timtofly]

So you conjured your own interpretations which are alien to historic orthodox Christianity.

Yours don't use Scripture, which is why you cannot demonstrate support from historic orthodox Christianity.

The RCC does claim to be orthodox Christianiy. I assume that is your point.

You can have human orthodoxy if it makes you feel better than having Scripture. You cannot have both though. It was orthodoxy that killed the church holding to the truth of God's Word.

You have yet to show my opinions are not Scripture.

You keep interjecting human orthodoxy.

 

[Timtofly]

True. What fulfilled it and made it obsolete?

Jesus being the 70th week, and only the Christ part is accomplished. The King part will be completed at the 7th Trumpet.

 

[covenantee]

The RCC does claim to be orthodox Christianiy.

The RCC is not orthodox Christianity, otherwise the Reformation would have been unnecessary; but you cannot even demonstrate support from the RCC, let alone from orthodox Christianity.

You're a one-man show frequently espousing your own flavor of cultic modernism.

 

[covenantee]

Jesus being the 70th week, and only the Christ part is accomplished. The King part will be completed at the 7th Trumpet.

Did the NT fulfill and make obsolete the OT?