22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Spiritual Israelite]

WRONG.

No, you're WRONG.

Jesus’s words to the Thief on the cross assure us that there is an immediate judgement after death:
Luke 23:43
“Today you will ne with me in paradise.”

Where does this say anything about anyone being judged? It doesn't. You are adding things to scripture that are not there. That's a bad thing to do.

There is NO “soul sleep”. That’s an SDA invention.

Who said anything about soul sleep? Not me. Any other straw man arguments you'd like to waste your time making?

We DIE – we are JUDGED. This is the Particular Judgement.

Scripture does not teach this anywhere. Our fates are sealed when we die, but judgment day has not yet occurred.

The General Judgement occurs AFTER the 2nd coming and the Resurrection of the Dead.

There is only one judgment day for all people. Any other judgment comes from your imagination (or should I say from the imaginations of the false teachers that you follow).

 

[WPM]

Soooo, YOU don’t believe in an immediate Judgement after death?

Heb. 9:27
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment.

Final Purification is PART of the Judgement -NOT a separate event.
As I explained to you in my LAST post with regard to 1 Cor. 3:10-15:

- This CANNOT be Heaven because there is NO suffering in Heaven - and the person suffers loss.

- This CANNOT be Hell because the person is eventually “Saved” – and nobody in Hell is saved.

- This is describing a THIRD state – that of final purification before entering Heaven.

This is final refinement by God because NOTHING unclean or impure can enter Heaven (Rev. 21:27).

I also presented the following verses as support for this doctrine:
In 2 Macc. 12:42-46, we see that Judas Maccabeus PRAYS for the men of his army, killed in battle.

Verse 44 says, “… for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.”

Matt. 5:25-26 tells us that unless we have settled our matters, we will be “handed over to the prison guard and will not be released until we have paid the last penny.”

I do not care what it says in Maccabees. I only care what it says in the Word of God.

Hebrews 9:27 is telling us that the judgment occurs after death, not before it. A very simple truth! This has nothing to do with purgatory. You add it into the sacred text.

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Jesus is using an earthly illustration of a living man being thrown into prison for not reconciling with his adversary. This is nothing to do with the after-life. This is nothing to do with purgatory. There is no such place. You are twisting the Book to support your false teaching. It is talking about reconciliation in life. Very smart!

Matt. 12:32

“whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come

Matt. 18:32-35, Luke 12:58-59 also support this doctrine.

Once again, this has nothing to do with purgatory. It is talking about eternal unforgiveness, not your second chance theology.

 

[WPM]

Sooooo - YOU'RE saying that people goo to Heaven or Hell WITHOUT being judged??

PROVE that from Scripture . . .

Check the thief on the cross that you just quoted. Hello! The judgment does not come to the second coming. Check God's Book instead of what the Pope thinks up.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, you're WRONG.


Where does this say anything about anyone being judged? It doesn't. You are adding things to scripture that are not there. That's a bad thing to do.

Who said anything about soul sleep? Not me. Any other straw man arguments you'd like to waste your time making?

Scripture does not teach this anywhere. Our fates are sealed when we die, but judgment day has not yet occurred.

There is only one judgment day for all people. Any other judgment comes from your imagination (or should I say from the imaginations of the false teachers that you follow).

So, YOU believe that we either go to Heaven or Hell – WITHOUT being judged??
You’ll have to prove that one from Scripture.

Chapter and Verse, please . . .

And my reference to Soul Sleep wasn’t a “Straw Man”. I’m trying to figure out where ALL of the souls are awaiting judgement until the end of the world. Where do YOU have them waiting??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Check the thief on the cross that you just quoted. Hello! The judgment does not come to the second coming. Check God's Book instead of what the Pope thinks up.

That is the General Judgement - not the Particular Judgement, which happens immediately after death.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is the General Judgement - not the Particular Judgement, which happens immediately after death.

There is no "Particular Judgement". Someone made that up long ago and you have fallen for that lie.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I do not care what it says in Maccabees. I only care what it says in the Word of God.

1 & 2 Maccabees are Books that YOUR Protestant Fathers removed, along with 5 other Books and portions of Daniel and Esther.

Luther and Calviin also wanted to remove The Epistles of James and Jude and Revelation from the New Testament. They were stopped by their contemporaries, men like Philip Melanchton. Otherwise, YOUR Protestant Bible would have been a LOR thinner . . .

Jesus and the NT writers studied from these 7 Books and wrote about them almost 200 times inthe NT.

Hebrews 9:27 is telling us that the judgment occurs after death, not before it. A very simple truth! This has nothing to do with purgatory. You add it into the sacred text.

Mat 5:21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Mat 5:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Jesus is using an earthly illustration of a living man being thrown into prison for not reconciling with his adversary. This is nothing to do with the after-life. This is nothing to do with purgatory. There is no such place. You are twisting the Book to support your false teaching. It is talking about reconciliation in life. Very smart!

Once again, this has nothing to do with purgatory. It is talking about eternal unforgiveness, not your second chance theology.

Purgatory isn't a "2nd change", my woefully-ignorant friend.
Everyone who undergoes Final Purification goes to Heaven.

Do your homework before making these kinds of idiotic remarks . . .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So, YOU believe that we either go to Heaven or Hell – WITHOUT being judged??
You’ll have to prove that one from Scripture.

I am talking about the judgment where people have to stand before Jesus to give an account of themselves. That has not yet occurred. Obviously, God determines where people go when they die, but nowhere in scripture is that referred to specifically as a judgment. And nowhere does scripture ever teach that someone's fate is not yet sealed the moment that they die.

Chapter and Verse, please . . .

And my reference to Soul Sleep wasn’t a “Straw Man”.

Do you not know what a straw man argument is? I do not believe in soul sleep. So, for you to argue against it when talking to me (as if I believed that) is what is called a straw man argument because you are arguing with something an imaginary straw man believes instead of what I (the person you're talking to) believe.

I’m trying to figure out where ALL of the souls are awaiting judgement until the end of the world. Where do YOU have them waiting??

The souls of believers are in heaven and the souls of unbelievers are in hell (Hades). Very simple.

 

[BreadOfLife]

There is no "Particular Judgement". Someone made that up long ago and you have fallen for that lie.

Explain to me how the Thief on the cross can be in Paradise on that very day without having been judged.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

1 & 2 Maccabees are Books that YOUR Protestant Fathers removed,

For good reason. They contain false teaching such as the idea that we shold pray for the dead (2 Maccabees 12:43-46) which is not something supported anywhere in scripture. Once someone dies their fate is sealed. Any doctrine that says otherwise is a doctrine of devils that originated from the pit of hell.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I am talking about the judgment where people have to stand before Jesus to give an account of themselves. That has not yet occurred. Obviously, God determines where people go when they die, but nowhere in scripture is that referred to specifically as a judgment. And nowhere does scripture ever teach that someone's fate is not yet sealed the moment that they die.


Do you not know what a straw man argument is? I do not believe in soul sleep. So, for you to argue against it when talking to me (as if I believed that) is what is called a straw man argument because you are arguing with something an ima

Nop- I didn't "suppose" anythig.
As I explained before - I was trying to figure out WHERE you have these people waiting - and the fairy tale of Soul Sleep was the ONLY viable option.
It was deductive reasoning.

The souls of believers are in heaven and the souls of unbelievers are in hell (Hades). Very simple.

Soooo - they ALL got there WITHOUT being judged??

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Explain to me how the Thief on the cross can be in Paradise on that very day without having been judged.

We are not on the same page here with what we are talking about. I am talking about the fact that in terms of people being judged and giving an account of themselves, there is only one judgment day and that has not yet taken place. It is at that point that each person will either inherit "eternal life" in "the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world" or they will be cast into "everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels", as Jesus talked about in Matthew 25:31-46.

If you want to see someone either going to heaven or hell upon death as a judgment, so be it. What scripture does not teach is that someone's eternal fate is not yet determined upon death. Yes, it is. Once a person dies, that's it. There's no second chance at salvation. To teach otherwise is a horrible contradiction of scripture. Satan would like nothing more than for people to believe they can get a second chance at salvation after death. Scripture teaches that TODAY is the day of salvation, so this false demonic teaching you believe in takes away the urgency for people to repent and put their faith in Christ while they have the chance before they die.

 

[BreadOfLife]

For good reason. They contain false teaching such as the idea that we shold pray for the dead (2 Maccabees 12:43-46) which is not something supported anywhere in scripture. Once someone dies their fate is sealed. Any doctrine that says otherwise is a doctrine of devils that originated from the pit of hell.

Jesus and the NT writers studied from and quotes or otherwise referenced these Book in the NT.

WHO told YOU that they were "False" and gave YOU the authority to delete them?
WHY were they referenced in the NT if they are "False"??

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Nop- I didn't "suppose" anythig.
As I explained before - I was trying to figure out WHERE you have these people waiting - and the fairy tale of Soul Sleep was the ONLY viable option.

That's a dumb thing for you to claim because it's clearly not true since I do not believe in soul sleep.

It was deductive reasoning.

Soooo - they ALL got there WITHOUT being judged??

Judged in what way? In terms of God determining whether they should go to heaven or hell? Sure, in that sense. But, when I think of people being judged I think of judgment day when people will have to give an account of themselves.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus and the NT writers studied from and quotes or otherwise referenced these Book in the NT.

WHO told YOU that they were "False" and gave YOU the authority to delete them?
WHY were they referenced in the NT if they are "False"??

Actual scripture tells me that. What other scripture can you reference that supports the idea of praying for the dead or the idea of purgatory? There is none. Those teachings contradict other scripture which teach that one must repent and believe in this lifetime in order to be saved or it is too late. So, those are doctrine that were clearly made up in those Satanic books that you trust in.

 

[BreadOfLife]

That's a dumb thing for you to claim because it's clearly not true since I do not believe in soul sleep.

I guess that entire point went completely OVER your head.
Whether YOU believe in it or not was not was not originally made known to me.

AS I have explained ad nauseam - it was deductive reasoning because your point that everybody is hanging around somewhere waiting for their judgement doesn’t make sent.

Judged in what way? In terms of God determining whether they should go to heaven or hell? Sure, in that sense. But, when I think of people being judged I think of judgment day when people will have to give an account of themselves.

And you don’t get to your destination – whether it’s Heaveb OR Hell- without being Judged.

 

[Timtofly]

LOL. Your millennium is eventually overrun by billions of wicked as the sand of the sea. The Amil understanding is biblical.

1. So, according to you, turning your back on Jesus is not sin?
2. Being deceived by the devil and becoming a follower of him is not sin?
3. Mobilizing in Satan's army to destroy "the camp of the saints" is not sin?

So according to you, Jesus does not destroy all the wicked at the Second Coming?

 

[Timtofly]

LOL. You're right. There is not one verse in Scripture that implies Amil eschatology, there are MANY verses in scripture which imply Amil eschatology.

Not a single one, or you would have put them in your post.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I guess that entire point went completely OVER your head.

Maybe because you are terrible at communicating? Could that be? Yes, I think so.

Whether YOU believe in it or not was not was not originally made known to me.

So, why did you make that assumption about what I believe? Because you like to make baseless assumptions? Yes, I think so.

AS I have explained ad nauseam - it was deductive reasoning

It looks like your deductive reasoning skills are lacking then.

because your point that everybody is hanging around somewhere waiting for their judgement doesn’t make sent.

When did I say they are just hanging around, whatever that even means? I don't know exactly what the souls of dead people do in heaven, but I don't think they just hang around and do nothing at all. As an Amil, I argue that they live and reign with Christ in heaven, according to Revelation 20.

And you don’t get to your destination – whether it’s Heaveb OR Hell- without being Judged.

Whatever. The point being made is that once that determination is made (heaven or hell) then nothing can change that. People don't get second chances at salvation after they die as you falsely believe.

 

[Timtofly]

Scripturally.

That's all that matters.

So Scripture stole someone's interpretation and forced it on others?

The RCC uses Scripture just like you do. You both are wrong, so you can't use that as an excuse for bad theology.