22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Timtofly]

Trying to read the Revelation in chronological order makes a complete mockery of the book.

This is the only way to read the book, and only a twisted mind would think reading a book equates to mockery.

Trying to read the book thinking only another person can reveal what happens because they were told it was way too symbolic and hard to understand, is the wrong approach.

Saying it is only the same event repeated over and over is just human imagination gone wild. How did you arrive at the conclusion the OT was a starting point?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Actual scripture tells me that. What other scripture can you reference that supports the idea of praying for the dead or the idea of purgatory? There is none. Those teachings contradict other scripture which teach that one must repent and believe in this lifetime in order to be saved or it is too late. So, those are doctrine that were clearly made up in those Satanic books that you trust in.

Soooo – YOU believe that Jesus and the Apostles studied from “Satanic” books??
Is THAT what you’re saying??

As I stated earlier – there are almost 200 quotes and references to the 7 Deuterocanonical Books in the New Testament that were removed by your Protestant Fathers. They include Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Sirach, 1 &2 Maccabees, Wisdom.

Do you know WHY they removed them? Why were they okay for Jesus and the NT writers to study from – but NOT your Protestant Fathers??

Here are TWO examples from the NT that reference these Books:
Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

And YOU call this “Satanic”??

 

[Timtofly]

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

So you believe that Hebrews 8:13 makes the new covenant null and void.

Have you informed the Holy Spirit of His error?

The OT was fulfilled, and made obsolete. It was not stoned to death. OT means Old Testament, not Dead Testament. The Law decayed, because it was for the dead decaying flesh. The Law is not all there is to the OT.

There was more to the old covenant than just the law.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Soooo – YOU believe that Jesus and the Apostles studied from “Satanic” books??
Is THAT what you’re saying??

Of course not. I was referring to books like 1 and 2 Maccabees, and you know it. Pretending to be dumb isn't a good look.

As I stated earlier – there are almost 200 quotes and references to the 7 Deuterocanonical Books in the New Testament that were removed by your Protestant Fathers. They include Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Sirach, 1 &2 Maccabees, Wisdom.

Do you know WHY they removed them? Why were they okay for Jesus and the NT writers to study from – but NOT your Protestant Fathers??

Are you playing dumb? They obviously were removed because those books teach things that contradict doctrines that are taught in the other books. Is this too hard for you to understand? Does this mean every word in those books contained false teaching? No, that isn't what anyone is saying. But, they do contain some false teaching and that obviously disqualifies them from being considered the word of God.

Here are TWO examples from the NT that reference these Books:
Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

And YOU call this “Satanic”??

Here you are making more straw man arguments. I am not saying every word in those books is false teaching, but some of them are. Let me know if you're still not getting the point.

 

[Timtofly]

And don’t fool yourself that this is a “Catholic” problem. The molestation problem is FAR WORSE in Protestant circles

Honesty?

Pretty sure Catholics outnumber Protestants 2 to 1 throughout history and listing even several dozen bad Protestants won't even come close to what has been attributed to the other side. Sin is a human problem, not a denominational problem.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Maybe because you are terrible at communicating? Could that be? Yes, I think so.

So, why did you make that assumption about what I believe? Because you like to make baseless assumptions? Yes, I think so.

WOW – it really DID go over your head . .

It looks like your deductive reasoning skills are lacking then.

Deductive reasoning is the attempt to whittle your way down to the truth by the clues given.

If you don’t want to be associated with stupid, false doctrines – don’t say stupid things . . .

When did I say they are just hanging around, whatever that even means? I don't know exactly what the souls of dead people do in heaven, but I don't think they just hang around and do nothing at all. As an Amil, I argue that they live and reign with Christ in heaven, according to Revelation 20.

And, as a Christian, you should know that they must be JUDGED before they can reside in Heaven OR Hell.

Whatever. The point being made is that once that determination is made (heaven or hell) then nothing can change that. People don't get second chances at salvation after they die as you falsely believe.

I never said ANYTHING about “2nd chances” – so why the strawman??

Purgatory is Final Purification before entering Heaven – NOT a “2nd chance”.

 

[Timtofly]

You are avoiding again. That is what you do.

When does the NHNE arrive in your opinion - before or after the millennium?

My opinion?

Scripture is clear the millennium is after the Second Coming and prior to Jesus handing back current creation to God on the GWT. Then only the GWT is seen with the LOF. That is the point when the NHNE begin. There is no mention of the GWT even being in the NHNE, because the New Jerusalem is now the residence of the Trinity.

"And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

Satan is bound after being tossed out of heaven and defeated on earth. That will last for the thousand years after the Second Coming.

 

[Timtofly]

When you have to praise your own posts - that's when you know you hit rock bottom . . .

They argue a lot as well, perhaps it is cathartic?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Of course not. I was referring to books like 1 and 2 Maccabees, and you know it. Pretending to be dumb isn't a good look.

JESUS and the APOSTLES studied from those Books that YOU refer to as "Satanic".

So, I will ask you AGAIN:
Did Jesus and the Apostles study from Satanic books or not??

Are you playing dumb? They obviously were removed because those books teach things that contradict doctrines that are taught in the other books. Is this too hard for you to understand? Does this mean every word in those books contained false teaching? No, that isn't what anyone is saying. But, they do contain some false teaching and that obviously disqualifies them from being considered the word of God.

Okay - do YOU believe that Jesus and the NT writers would have studied and taught from Books that were mostly LIES?

Also - can YOU tell me WHO deleted those 7 Books and under WHOSE Authority?

Here you are making more straw man arguments. I am not saying every word in those books is false teaching, but some of them are. Let me know if you're still not getting the point.

No strawman here.

I am merely holding you accountable for implying that Jesus studied from false Books that went on to be referenced on the pages of the New Testament.
Do you REALLY believe that the NT contains uninspired lessons from "false" books??

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

WOW – it really DID go over your head . .

WOW, you are really annoying me at this point with your nonsense.

Deductive reasoning is the attempt to whittle your way down to the truth by the clues given.

I know what it is, you silly person. I don't need you to teach me anything, including obvious things like this.

If you don’t want to be associated with stupid, false doctrines – don’t say stupid things . . .

I didn't. You are the one saying lots of stupid things here. You believe in purgatory. That's stupid. You believe in praying to the dead. That's really stupid. I could go on and on all night listing all the stupid doctrines that you believe in.

And, as a Christian, you should know that they must be JUDGED before they can reside in Heaven OR Hell.

They don't have to stand before the judgment seat to give an account of themselves before that and that is what I'm talking about. That will occur on judgment day in the future.

I never said ANYTHING about “2nd chances” – so why the strawman??

Purgatory is Final Purification before entering Heaven – NOT a “2nd chance”.

Oh, you don't like strawman arguments? Why do you make them then? Sorry for not being an expert on the stupid doctrine of purgatory which teaches that people can atone for their own sins, which is impossible since only the blood of Christ can accomplish that. I didn't realize that you had the stupid belief that it is automatic for someone who goes there to eventually end up in heaven.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Honesty?

Pretty sure Catholics outnumber Protestants 2 to 1 throughout history and listing even several dozen bad Protestants won't even come close to what has been attributed to the other side. Sin is a human problem, not a denominational problem.

According to the FBI and Insurance statistics outlined in the book Pedophiles and Priests by PROTESTANT author, Philip Jenkins - the problem is FAR WORSE in Protestant circles.

The Catholic Church got all of the lawsuits because every diocese is insured - and THAT'S what the lawyers went after. Conversely, MAY Protestant churches are smaller and there is no money to be had - so the lawyers stayed away.

READ the headlines I posted . . .

 

[rwb]

This is the only way to read the book, and only a twisted mind would think reading a book equates to mockery.

Trying to read the book thinking only another person can reveal what happens because they were told it was way too symbolic and hard to understand, is the wrong approach.

Saying it is only the same event repeated over and over is just human imagination gone wild. How did you arrive at the conclusion the OT was a starting point?

I've already explained this to you!!! If I continue to repeat myself again and again, will it make any difference to you? We both know it won't so stop asking me to repeat ad nauseum the same things over and over.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

JESUS and the APOSTLES studied from those Books that YOU refer to as "Satanic".

So, I will ask you AGAIN:
Did Jesus and the Apostles study from Satanic books or not??

Where did they indicate that those books are accurate from beginning to end and should be equated with scripture? Good luck answering this question.

Okay - do YOU believe that Jesus and the NT writers would have studied and taught from Books that were mostly LIES?

Who said they were MOSTLY lies? Not me. Yet another straw man argument from you.

Also - can YOU tell me WHO deleted those 7 Books and under WHOSE Authority?

I can't give you names, but they clearly knew what they were doing.

No strawman here.

I am merely holding you accountable for implying that Jesus studied from false Books that went on to be referenced on the pages of the New Testament.
Do you REALLY believe that the NT contains uninspired lessons from "false" books??

Again, I'm not saying everything in those books is false, but they do contain some false teachings that contradict actual scripture. I guess you don't care about that and have low standards for what you consider to be scripture.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I didn't. You are the one saying lots of stupid things here. You believe in purgatory. That's stupid. You believe in praying to the dead. That's really stupid. I could go on and on all night listing all the stupid doctrines that you believe in.

Those who are in the presence of Almighty God are MORE alive than YOU are.
The truth always seems "stupid" to those who don't have a CLUE . . .

They don't have to stand before the judgment seat to give an account of themselves before that and that is what I'm talking about. That will occur on judgment day in the future.

Then they can't get into Heaven - or Hell - until they are judged.

Oh, you don't like strawman arguments? Why do you make them then? Sorry for not being an expert on the stupid doctrine of purgatory which teaches that people can atone for their own sins, which is impossible since only the blood of Christ can accomplish that. I didn't realize that you had the stupid belief that it is automatic for someone who goes there to eventually end up in heaven.

Do your homework . . .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Those who are in the presence of Almighty God are MORE alive than YOU are.

Who made you Judge? Judge not or you will be judged with the same measure that you use to judge others. Jesus said that. You should listen to Him.

The truth always seems "stupid" to those who don't have a CLUE . . .

I agree. That's why the truth I'm sharing here seems stupid to you.

Then they can't get into Heaven - or Hell - until they are judged.

Are you playing dumb or are you just dumb? I'm genuinely curious. I've explained my understanding to you several times at this point. Of course I agree that God judges each person in terms of whether they should go to heaven or hell when they die. But, no one stands before the throne to give an account of themselves yet at that point. That will happen in the future on judgment day. Do you understand what I'm telling you or do I need to spell it out even further?

Do your homework . . .

I do my homework with the actual word of God. I'm not too concerned whether I have a perfect understanding of your stupid false doctrines based on extrabiblical sources or not.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Where did they indicate that those books are accurate from beginning to end and should be equated with scripture? Good luck answering this question.

They ARE Scripture. That’s why they are referenced in New Testament Scripture, Einstein.

I already gave TWQ perfect examples:

Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

Who said they were MOSTLY lies? Not me. Yet another straw man argument from you.

Okay - PARTIALLY lies.
Do YOU believe that Jesus and the NT writers would reference these Booka on the oages of the NT even if thet only PARTIALLY taught LIES??

I can't give you names, but they clearly knew what they were doing.

If you don't know - HOW can you blindly trust them??

Can you tell me which person or group deleted these Books??

Again, I'm not saying everything in those books is false, but they do contain some false teachings that contradict actual scripture. I guess you don't care about that and have low standards for what you consider to be scripture.

If this is true - this sgould SHAKE you to your foundation.

If it's true - you have NO reason for believeing in the New Testament, where these Books are referenced and quoted almost 200 times.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Who made you Judge? Judge not or you will be judged with the same measure that you use to judge others. Jesus said that. You should listen to Him.

WHO's judging??
I am stating a FACT - that those in Heaven are more allive than YOU and me because they ahave been made perfect.

YOU'RE still being worked on . . .

I agree. That's why the truth I'm sharing here seems stupid to you.

TRULY a "Sesame Street" response . . .

Are you playing dumb or are you just dumb? I'm genuinely curious. I've explained my understanding to you several times at this point. Of course I agree that God judges each person in terms of whether they should go to heaven or hell when they die. But, no one stands before the throne to give an account of themselves yet at that point. That will happen in the future on judgment day. Do you understand what I'm telling you or do I need to spell it out even further?

Non - there's NO need for you to regurgitate the same manure.
You reject the idea of the Particular Judgement. That was obvious from your original rant.

Can blame a guy for trying to remove the scales from your eyes . . .

I do my homework with the actual word of God. I'm not too concerned whether I have a perfect understanding of your stupid false doctrines based on extrabiblical sources or not.

Especially when I back them up with loads of Scripture, like I have . . .

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

They ARE Scripture. That’s why they are referenced in New Testament Scripture, Einstein.

Hey, genius, that is only your opinion that they are referenced in New Testament scripture.

I already gave TWQ perfect examples:

Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

I don't believe he was referencing those passages specifically and you have no evidence to prove that. It's just your assumption.

Okay - PARTIALLY lies.
Do YOU believe that Jesus and the NT writers would reference these Booka on the oages of the NT even if thet only PARTIALLY taught LIES??

If you don't know - HOW can you blindly trust them??

I know what is true or not by way of the Holy Spirit who lives in me. There is nothing blind about the trust I have in the word of God. There are things taught in your stupid extrabiblical books that contradict scripture. Such as the idea of someone atoning for their own sin. That contradicts a lot of scripture because NT scripture repeatedly teaches about how only the blood of Christ can atone for sin. All we can do is acknowledge that fact and put our faith and trust in Him. There is nothing tangible that we can do to atone for our sins. This doctrine shows a complete lack of understanding of God's grace and a lack of understanding that we are not saved by works. Why are you okay with believing in things that are taught in your extrabiblical books that contradict what is taught in the New Testament?

Can you tell me which person or group deleted these Books??

I honestly don't care. All I know is that they clearly did the right thing because it makes no sense to have books within the Bible that contradict what is taught in other books of the Bible.

If this is true - this sgould SHAKE you to your foundation.

LOL. You are VERY dramatic when you speak. I find THAT to be HILARIOUS.

If it's true - you have NO reason for believeing in the New Testament, where these Books are referenced and quoted almost 200 times.

That is a lie. They are not quoted 200 times. I don't believe they are quoted at all. But, even if they were quoted at all, there is nothing wrong with quoting something that is true even if something else contained within the same book is false. Truth is truth regardless.

Jude quoted from the book of Enoch.

Jude 14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Yet, the book of Enoch is not in your Bible and not considered Scripture by Catholics. So much for your idea that scripture can only quote other scripture.

 

[Truth7t7]

Of course not. I was referring to books like 1 and 2 Maccabees, and you know it. Pretending to be dumb isn't a good look.


Are you playing dumb? They obviously were removed because those books teach things that contradict doctrines that are taught in the other books. Is this too hard for you to understand? Does this mean every word in those books contained false teaching? No, that isn't what anyone is saying. But, they do contain some false teaching and that obviously disqualifies them from being considered the word of God.


Here you are making more straw man arguments. I am not saying every word in those books is false teaching, but some of them are. Let me know if you're still not getting the point.

Errors in the Apocrypha​

by Matt Slick | Feb 17, 2018 | Roman Catholicism, World Religions
The Apocrypha (απόκρυφα means “hidden”) is a set of books written between approximately 400 B.C. and the time of Christ that is rejected by Protestants and officially accepted by the Roman Catholic Church in 1546 as being inspired. These books are Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach (also known as Ecclesiasticus), and Baruch.
But if the Apocrypha is a Scripture, then it should not have any errors. But since it does have errors, as will be demonstrated below, this puts into question whether or not the Roman Catholic Church has properly used its self-proclaimed position as the teaching authority of the Christian Church. If it can error in such an important manner as what is Scripture, can it be trusted to properly teach the Christian Church? The following references can be verified at http://www.newadvent.org/bible.

Problems in the Apocrypha​

When we look into the Apocrypha itself, we find numerous problems. For example, we see it advocating magic where the smoke of a fish heart on a fire drives away devils.

Condones the use of magic​

Tobit 6:5-7, “Then the angel said to him: Take out the entrails of this fish, and lay up his heart, and his gall, and his liver for thee: for these are necessary for useful medicines. 6 And when he had done so, he roasted the flesh thereof, and they took it with them in the way: the rest they salted as much as might serve them, till they came to Rages the city of the Medes. 7 Then Tobias asked the angel, and said to him: I beseech thee, brother Azarias, tell me what remedies are these things good for, which thou hast bid me keep of the fish? 8 And the angel, answering, said to him: If thou put a little piece of its heart upon coals, the smoke thereof driveth away all kind of devils, either from man or from woman, so that they come no more to them.”
Is it true that the smoke from a fish’s heart, when burned, drives away evil spirits? Of course not. Such a superstitious teaching has no place in the word of God.

Teaches that forgiveness of sins is by human effort.​

Salvation by works:

• Tobit 4:11, “For alms deliver from all sin, and from death, and will not suffer the soul to go into darkness.”
• Tobit 12:9, “For alms delivereth from death, and the same is that which purgeth away sins, and maketh to find mercy and life everlasting.”

We know from Scripture that alms (money or food given to the poor or needy as charity) does not purge our sins. The blood of Christ is what cleanses us – not money or food given to poor people. “But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin,” (1 John 1:7).

Money as an offering for the sins of the dead:

2 Maccabbees 12:43, “And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection.”

Can anyone truly accept that money isn’t offering for the sins of dead people? Such a superstitious and unbiblical concept has no place in Scripture.

Historical Errors​

Wrong historical facts:

• Judith 1:5, “Now in the twelfth year of his reign, Nabuchodonosor, king of the Assyrians, who reigned in Ninive the great city, fought against Arphaxad and overcame him.”
• Baruch 6:2, “And when you are come into Babylon, you shall be there many years, and for a long time, even to seven generations: and after that I will bring you away from thence with peace.”

The book of Judith incorrectly says that Nebuchadnezzar was the king of the Assyrians when he was the king of the Babylonians.1

Baruch 6:2 says the Jews would serve in Babylon for seven generations where Jer. 25:11 says it was for 70 years. “And this whole land shall be a desolation and a horror, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”

Conclusion​

Obviously, the Apocrypha has serious problems. From magic to salvation by works, to money as an offering for the sins of the dead, and blatant incorrect historical facts – it is full of false and unbiblical teachings. It isn’t inspired by God. Likewise, neither is the Roman Catholic Church, which has stated the Apocrypha is inspired. This shows the Roman Catholic Church is not the means by which God is communicating his truth to his people, that the Magisterium has erred greatly, and that it is infested with man’s false tradition rather than God’s absolute truth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

WHO's judging??

That would be you. I was talking to you and telling you that you are judging. So, you must have very poor reading comprehension skills if you still can't figure out who's judging.

I am stating a FACT - that those in Heaven are more allive than YOU and me because they ahave been made perfect.

How does them being in heaven make them more alive than us? That's silly. Also, they have not been made perfect yet in the sense of how scripture talks about us being made perfect. Being made perfect involves having their bodies resurrected and changed to be immortal and perfect. That hasn't happened yet. That will happen at the last trumpet when Christ returns in the future.

TRULY a "Sesame Street" response . . .

It was a funny response because I turned your nonsense back around on you. LOL.

Non - there's NO need for you to regurgitate the same manure.
You reject the idea of the Particular Judgement. That was obvious from your original rant.

Show me where scripture teaches about this "Particular Judgement" that you are referencing. What does it entail exactly?

Can blame a guy for trying to remove the scales from your eyes . . .

Says the guy who believes in complete nonsense like purgatory and praying to and for the dead. LOL. The scales are clearly very thick on your eyes.

Especially when I back them up with loads of Scripture, like I have . . .

LOL. That is hilarious. You don't even know what Scripture is. That is clearly the case since you include what are very obviously not books of Scripture as Scripture.