22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[St. Joseph]

You tell me what your cult is called. I can't know unless you reveal that.

I would say those who teach against the pretrib rapture belong to the Arnold Murray cult.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here's the deal.

You only think a few Jews can or have been saved and voluntarily blind yourself to the greatest promise God has ever made to a human being since the world began.

The promise to the fathers.

You tweak it to mean a promise to YOU.

What a messed up belief system.

There is a promise keeper(God to the fathers).

And promise thieves(Amils and preterists).

You can protest the fulfillment of the promise all you want(as satan does to try to destroy Israel and the fulfillment of the promise in the tribulation), but you will never pull it off.

The promise is against you.

You are on the wrong team.

Read Zech 14....

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the Lord, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.




You lose.

Tell me, if that passage is talking about earthly Jerusalem, as you believe, then what do you make of this passage:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

I assume you believe that what is described in Zechariah 14:11 will occur before what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12? How can there "be no more utter destruction" in earthly Jerusalem if the entire earth is burned up after that? Oops. Looks like you lose.

 

[Biblethumper]

(19) Premil has an unhealthy obsessive focus on natural Israel, wrongly believing her to be God’s chosen people today under the new covenant. As a result, they have a mistaken fixation with natural Jerusalem in the Middle East, as if it is the epicenter of God’s workings with mankind on this earth and the place of His unconditional favor. This is wrong! They ignore much Scripture that shows that the fig tree has been cut down, the kingdom of God has been removed from Israel. Ancient Jerusalem and the temple therein were merely Old Testament imperfect shadows of the heavenly reality that was revealed at the first advent. The New Testament repeatedly teaches that we have become one with spiritual believing Israel in the OT. It makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one new man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time!

(20) General unqualified phrases like “all,” “all nations,” “the quick (or living) and the dead,” “every man,” “every eye,” “every one,” “men,” “man,” “all men everywhere,” “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great,” “all that dwell upon the earth … whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world ,” “they that dwell on the earth … whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,” “the world,” “the whole world” and “all the world,” that objective and impartial Bible students acknowledge embrace the whole human race (or the full amount of all the wicked) are redefined and explained away to let Premil fit. If one was to take a precise straightforward interpretation of these phrases, one could only come to conclusion that there are no exclusions here. This shows that the Premil boast that they are literalists is inaccurate.

(21) Premil takes common linguistic terms that are easily understood by the unindoctrinated observer in any language to mean the opposite to what they actually say. For example, Premil does not believe that "first" means first and "last" means last. The English words “first” and “last” are taken from the Greek words protos and eschatos and are widely accepted by all unbiased theologians to denote exactly what they say. The word protos means first, as in the foremost in time, place, order or importance. The word eschatos on the other hand means end, last, farthest and final. It is explicitly clear from their usage, meaning and context in the New Testament that these words are the exact antithesis of each other.

(22) Premil does not believe that “the end” refers to the end. The New Testament word from which we get our phrase “the end” is the Greek word telos which refers to the point aimed at as a limit, i.e. the conclusion of an act or state. It is the termination point of a thing. When Scripture simply talks about “the beginning” without any other additional words or contextual reason to identify it with a specific event, then most sane theologians agree it is talking about “the beginning” of creation. Whilst all sound theologians agree on this many are inconsistent when it comes to “the end.” The reason I believe is because it cuts across a lot of their end-time theology they have been taught. But I believe we should treat both sayings similarly. Unless Scripture specifically identifies “the end” with a particular event or matter like “the end of barley harvest” (Ruth 2:23) “the end of the sabbath” (Matt 28:1), “the end of the year” (2 Chron 24:23), “the end of the rod” (1 Sam 14:27), or “the end of the commandment” (1 Tim 1:5), etc, etc, then we should understand it as the end of the world (which is the end of the age).

Here is a link for a pretrib support also bible readers have to understand that the Rapture was a mystery through the whole Bible up until Paul received it from Jesus himself . The body of Christ (believers ) and the dispensation of grace which by the way is only in the KJV it was taken out in the modern translations was was kept hidden so satan would let Christ be crucified if he new Gods plan. Matthew 24 Jesus was only speaking to the Jews not gentiles cuz God did not reveal it yet. We as believers are not destined for Gods wrath we are a new creation in Christ there is absolutely no reason for us to be on earth at the tribulation. The tribulation is for Israel to turn to God and accept Jesus as the messiah. The two most likely Moses and Elijah will preach In Jerusalem and God will appoint the 144,000 to preach to the rest of the world and they will have the seal of God on their foreheads and be protected. Some say the church will be here and be protected but Revelations says the Satan will make war with them and kill them so how are they protected. Right off the start it says a third of the population will die , only the new believers will be on earth and be persecuted

Why I Believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Rapture Lamb and Lion Ministries.pdf

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[Spiritual Israelite]

I would say those who teach against the pretrib rapture belong to the Arnold Murray cult.

LOL. I don't know anything about him. I do know that the pretrib rapture theory is one of the weakest doctrines I've ever seen. But, I don't claim that someone believing in that means they are in a cult. That is not what I was saying at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The 3000 obeyed Peter, as they, murderers of Jesus, obeyed Acts 2:38.....


38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins...


They are better than you because you reject Peter.

This is completely out of line and illustrates how incredibly immature you are. He does not reject Peter. Judge not or you will be judged with the same measure that you judge others.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You guys teach replacement theology.

AKA...Promise theft.

Falser, you really need to stop lying. Did you know that lying is a sin? We don't teach that anyone is replaced, we teach that Gentile believers are joined with Jewish believers in the spiritual Israel of God and in one body (the body of Christ/church).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh, I see! So ALL Israel that shall be saved is only those who are lucky enough to live in the right age? To hell with the rest of them who lived and died in unbelief? How does this work for your doctrine which says all Israel saved are ethnic people? Too bad for those poor ethnic people called Israel who have already lived and died uh? Seems God is a Respecter of persons after all?

Great post. Scripture is very clear that God is not a respecter of persons, yet Falser teaches otherwise. He is making salvation dependent on being lucky enough to be born in the right place at the right time. Forget faith and repentance and all that stuff. Just be lucky enough to be born at the right place at the right time. That is what salvation is about...according to Falser.

 

[St. Joseph]

Falser, you really need to stop lying. Did you know that lying is a sin? We don't teach that anyone is replaced, we teach that Gentile believers are joined with Jewish believers in the spiritual Israel of God and in one body (the body of Christ/church).

I understand what you are saying. But a problem with it i have,is, when God made the promises to Israel in Old Testament, he said they would be forever. Now,how long is forever? If they arent forever,how can we be sure of everlasting(forever) life?

 

[Truther]

I know I did! In fact your whole doctrinal view has been resoundingly debunked throughout this thread! It's time for you to respond to arguments brought against your unbiblical doctrine. I do understand why you don't want to, because then you too would become Amil.

No, you debunked the literal words of the passage.

Good job.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul makes 3 overriding points in Romans 9–11:

• He establishes the great and lofty truth of divine election.
• He determines who true Israel is.
• He then shows how the Gentiles have been integrated into faithful Israel.

But the central (and overriding) theme that permeates Paul’s teaching in Romans 9–11 is his remnant theology. It is in these chapters that the teaching reaches its apex in regard to content and development. Paul brings much meat to the table and highlights the difference between national Israel and true remnant elect Israel. Paul also references various Old Testament Scriptures to show the continuity of the faithful remnant from the old economy to the new. He then shows on what grounds the Gentiles have been integrated into faithful Israel. He demonstrates how the New Testament congregation of God of all nations constitutes the covenant remnant of God today. He reveals how this elect company has grown to be a significant force on this earth. Paul lays all this out in a very structured, systematic and unambiguous way in these chapters.

There are many that deduce corporate salvation for natural Israel from this. But is Paul contradicting himself in his Romans 9-11 discourse? In one breath in Romans 9:27 he is saying “a remnant shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative), in the next, in Romans 11:26, he is saying “all Israel shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative).

Let us be absolutely assured: Paul is definitely not opposing himself, neither is the Holy Spirit, who inspired him to pen this, confused. He is in no way teaching corporate salvation in Romans 11:25-29, as some would suggest, or else he would be reversing everything he has just taught in the preceding verses and chapters of this book (and his other Epistles) in regard to an elect remnant. Salvation was never secured on the grounds of race; it was always by grace through faith. Moreover, the Gospel opportunity in the New Testament is always shown to be open to all nationalities equally; this includes natural Israel.

The first thing we need to realize here is that Paul opens up his teaching here by initially speaking about ethnic Israel. He then differentiates between the unbelieving element of Israel and the believing component.

In Romans 11:25-29, Paul is basically summing up everything he has just said previous in Romans 9–11, in regard to there being a chosen remnant within natural Israel that will be brought through in this intra-Advent period (while the Gentiles were being brought in). He saw a day when all that belonged to true Israel would finally be completed. That is why he uses the future tense. Greg L. Bahnsen submits: “God’s covenant promise never guaranteed salvation for all of ethnic Israel, says Paul, but it did provide for the inclusion of the Gentiles in salvation” (Gospel Prosperity and the Future of Israel).

Great post. One other thing worth noting is how it does not make sense for Paul to have said this:

11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Only to shortly later say that all of national Israel would be saved? Did he suddenly change his mind after verse 14 and conclude that they would ALL be saved right after saying he hoped that SOME of them would be saved? People who take Romans 11:26 to be talking about all people in national Israel one day being saved take the verse completely out of context and ignore the fact that their interpretation of that verse contradicts everything that Paul had been saying leading up to that verse.

 

[Truther]

Sounds like your involved in the cult of "Oneness Pentecostalism" in Jesus name only

Yes, the cult of the 3000 at Pentecost that had the gall to obey Acts 2:38(Peter).

What a cult!

 

[Truther]

No, you still don't get it. You have the wrong Israel in mind. And you noticeably won't even address the fact that there are two Israels. Why is that? Are you afraid of what you might discover by looking into the differences between the two Israels?

You think God hates the children of the fathers with an everlasting hatred?

You are better than they and deserve to take over their future fulfilled covenanted promise given to their fathers?

Are you a better sinner than they, especially as an Acts skipper?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I understand what you are saying. But a problem with it i have,is, when God made the promises to Israel in Old Testament, he said they would be forever. Now,how long is forever? If they arent forever,how can we be sure of everlasting(forever) life?

Here's the problem I have with those who insist the the promises to Israel in the Old Testament can only be applied to national Israel. You have to ignore verses like this in order to come to that conclusion:

Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.

Galatians 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The New Testament applies promises made to Israel in the Old Testament to Jesus Christ and those who belong to Him. That includes Gentile believers. The New Testament sheds light on God's plans that aren't made clear in the Old Testament. The New Testament makes it clear that "through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 3:6).

 

[St. Joseph]

No, you debunked the literal words of the passage.

Good job.

This is such an unnecessary squabble over nothing. It doesnt matter when Christ comes or if there will ever be a rapture. What matters is are we believing and trusting Christ and living our lives accordingly

 

[Truther]

Are you being dense on purpose or is it an act? All spiritual Israel shall be saved. I am not saying that "all" means some. Unlike you, I am properly understanding which Israel that is talking about.

Oh I get it now!!

All saved(present tense) shall be saved(future tense).

Just in case baptism in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins doesn't work...LOL.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You think God hates the children of the fathers with an everlasting hatred?

No, I never said that. Why do you continually misrepresent what others believe? You do it constantly. Something is seriously wrong with you.

You are better than they and deserve to take over their future fulfilled covenanted promise given to their fathers?

Which promise exactly are you talking about?

Are you a better sinner than they, especially as an Acts skipper?

An "Acts skipper"? What in the world are you talking about? You are coming across as unhinged here with your nonsense.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Oh I get it now!!

All saved(present tense) shall be saved(future tense).

It's talking about being saved under the new covenant which was established long ago by the blood of Christ, so it's talking about all current believers being saved and all future believers being saved. Then all Spiritual Israel together (all believers from all-time) will be saved.

Just in case baptism in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins doesn't work...LOL.

What are you talking about?

 

[Truther]

Tell me, if that passage is talking about earthly Jerusalem, as you believe, then what do you make of this passage:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

I assume you believe that what is described in Zechariah 14:11 will occur before what is described in 2 Peter 3:10-12? How can there "be no more utter destruction" in earthly Jerusalem if the entire earth is burned up after that? Oops. Looks like you lose.

Here is what the preterists teach....

This...

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Really means this...

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the TEMPLE shall pass away with a great noise, and the LAW shall melt with fervent heat, the JEWS also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Do you teach that also?


Now, Zech 14 depicts Rev 19-20.

Same event.

Jerusalem is saved as it is being overrun and spends 1000 years in peace.

Jerusalem is destroyed with the old heaven and earth at Rev 20:14....

The New Jerusalem city is introduced for the capital of the new heaven and earth.

Easy peasy.

 

[Truther]

This is completely out of line and illustrates how incredibly immature you are. He does not reject Peter. Judge not or you will be judged with the same measure that you judge others.

Is it judging others to call them out for disobeying Peter per Acts 2:38, as they point fingers at other unsaved people?

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, the RCC is the mother of all Acts skippers.
They introduced Acts 2:38 skipping to the world.

They forbid this....

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,.....

It was all downhill since......

WRONG.
water Baptism is a requirement for the forgiveness of sins and for entry into the church (Catechism of the Catholic church, paragraphs 1213 - 1293,

As for your "Whore of Babylon" manure - you couldn't actually refute ANY of the evidence I presented - could you?
That's what I thought . . .