22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

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rwb

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You really don't want all Israel to be saved, do you?...

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Oh. boy!

Please explain how "all Israel shall be saved" equates to one ethnic people since "all Israel" that shall be saved include Gentiles of faith as well as Jews of faith?

You refuse to acknowledge this truth because to do so would mean that you have not properly understood the Scriptures. It appears you would rather think yourself right, then to accept biblical truth?

Why do you refuse to answer the question regarding who belongs to the seed of Jacob? Is it because ALL (whether Jew or Gentile) the seed of Jacob are ALL people of faith! That means that both Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith are "all Israel that shall be saved", those who "shall ALL know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

I believe the greatest enemy of the ethnic people called national Israel are Christian Zionists, like yourself. Rather than pointing unbelieving Jews to Christ for eternal life today, you leave them in darkness and unbelief telling them they need have no fear for they are the chosen people of God and ALL without exception of them shall be saved. This of course assures that every Jew heeding your doctrine shall be damned. So really it is you and Zionism that show no love for unbelieving ethnic Israel, isn't it?
 
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WPM

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Amils and preterists have banned all national Israel and Judah from the future promise to the fathers and claimed(stolen) their inheritance from the fathers.

They think every prophetic promise only applies to them now.

It is called replacement theology.

Stop avoiding please. Stop talking on behalf of others. You not only avoid every query put to you, you also cannot help misrepresenting what others believe. This is a very weak tactic and shows you have nothing on Amil. You also cannot biblically support what you believe.

Who do you think that we think we have replaced?
 

rwb

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You still don't get it.

That was 2000 years ago.

Future national Israel will be saved, whether you Amils and preterists like it or not.

Now take this....


After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Oh, I see! So ALL Israel that shall be saved is only those who are lucky enough to live in the right age? To hell with the rest of them who lived and died in unbelief? How does this work for your doctrine which says all Israel saved are ethnic people? Too bad for those poor ethnic people called Israel who have already lived and died uh? Seems God is a Respecter of persons after all?
 

Truther

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Water Baptism plays no part in salvation, none!

Belief and Confession Equals Salvation

Roman's 10:9-10KJV
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ...

Good to know we are saved without remission of our sins, huh?

Who taught you that stuff???

Acts skippers?

They taught you to skip Acts and go straight to the epistles(letters to the Acts 2:38 adherers) and find an alternate plan?

Did you know that Romans 10:9 was written to post salvation saints to edify and confirm their faith?

Did you know that for nearly 44 years now, I have practiced Romans 10:9 to reaffirm my faith in the power of the Acts 2:38 experience I had in 1979?

If you have not been baptized in the name of Jesus, no epistle(Rom through Rev) applies to you.
 

WPM

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Not all, but some?...


26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Now repeat after me...

All.

Paul makes 3 overriding points in Romans 9–11:
  • He establishes the great and lofty truth of divine election.
  • He determines who true Israel is.
  • He then shows how the Gentiles have been integrated into faithful Israel.
But the central (and overriding) theme that permeates Paul’s teaching in Romans 9–11 is his remnant theology. It is in these chapters that the teaching reaches its apex in regard to content and development. Paul brings much meat to the table and highlights the difference between national Israel and true remnant elect Israel. Paul also references various Old Testament Scriptures to show the continuity of the faithful remnant from the old economy to the new. He then shows on what grounds the Gentiles have been integrated into faithful Israel. He demonstrates how the New Testament congregation of God of all nations constitutes the covenant remnant of God today. He reveals how this elect company has grown to be a significant force on this earth. Paul lays all this out in a very structured, systematic and unambiguous way in these chapters.

There are many that deduce corporate salvation for natural Israel from this. But is Paul contradicting himself in his Romans 9-11 discourse? In one breath in Romans 9:27 he is saying “a remnant shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative), in the next, in Romans 11:26, he is saying “all Israel shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative).

Let us be absolutely assured: Paul is definitely not opposing himself, neither is the Holy Spirit, who inspired him to pen this, confused. He is in no way teaching corporate salvation in Romans 11:25-29, as some would suggest, or else he would be reversing everything he has just taught in the preceding verses and chapters of this book (and his other Epistles) in regard to an elect remnant. Salvation was never secured on the grounds of race; it was always by grace through faith. Moreover, the Gospel opportunity in the New Testament is always shown to be open to all nationalities equally; this includes natural Israel.

The first thing we need to realize here is that Paul opens up his teaching here by initially speaking about ethnic Israel. He then differentiates between the unbelieving element of Israel and the believing component.

In Romans 11:25-29, Paul is basically summing up everything he has just said previous in Romans 9–11, in regard to there being a chosen remnant within natural Israel that will be brought through in this intra-Advent period (while the Gentiles were being brought in). He saw a day when all that belonged to true Israel would finally be completed. That is why he uses the future tense. Greg L. Bahnsen submits: “God’s covenant promise never guaranteed salvation for all of ethnic Israel, says Paul, but it did provide for the inclusion of the Gentiles in salvation” (Gospel Prosperity and the Future of Israel).
 
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rwb

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Not all, but some?...


26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Now repeat after me...

All.

Why do you continue to refuse to acknowledge that "all Israel" is only saved when Gentiles are grafted into the same good olive tree with them? It is as plain as the nose on our face that since Gentiles of faith and Jews of faith are together in ONE good olive tree called "all Israel" then "all Israel" CANNOT be an ethnic people, but all ALL PEOPLE OF FAITH IN CHRIST! All Israel that shall be saved, ONCE MORE is "Israel of God" which matters not what nation one is born.
 
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Truther

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Please explain how "all Israel shall be saved" equates to one ethnic people since "all Israel" that shall be saved include Gentiles of faith as well as Jews of faith?

You refuse to acknowledge this truth because to do so would mean that you have not properly understood the Scriptures. It appears you would rather think yourself right, then to accept biblical truth?

Why do you refuse to answer the question regarding who belongs to the seed of Jacob? Is it because ALL (whether Jew or Gentile) the seed of Jacob are ALL people of faith! That means that both Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith are "all Israel that shall be saved", those who "shall ALL know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

I believe the greatest enemy of the ethnic people called national Israel are Christian Zionists, like yourself. Rather than pointing unbelieving Jews to Christ for eternal life today, you leave them in darkness and unbelief telling them they need have no fear for they are the chosen people of God and ALL without exception of them shall be saved. This of course assures that every Jew heeding your doctrine shall be damned. So really it is you and Zionism that show no love for unbelieving ethnic Israel, isn't it?
Easy...

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.

Trust God's word for once in your life.
 

Truther

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Stop avoiding please. Stop talking on behalf of others. You not only avoid every query put to you, you also cannot help misrepresenting what others believe. This is a very weak tactic and shows you have nothing on Amil. You also cannot biblically support what you believe.

Who do you think that we think we have replaced?
In your mind, national Israel via their promise to the fathers.
 

Truther

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Oh, I see! So ALL Israel that shall be saved is only those who are lucky enough to live in the right age? To hell with the rest of them who lived and died in unbelief? How does this work for your doctrine which says all Israel saved are ethnic people? Too bad for those poor ethnic people called Israel who have already lived and died uh? Seems God is a Respecter of persons after all?
You really don't understand the promise to the fathers.

The entire Bible is pointing to that.
 

rwb

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Amils and preterists have banned all national Israel and Judah from the future promise to the fathers and claimed(stolen) their inheritance from the fathers.

They think every prophetic promise only applies to them now.

It is called replacement theology.

You are so heavily consumed by Zionism that you are blinded from seeing truth. Believing both Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith together make up "all Israel that shall be saved" is not replacement theology! If you weren't so blinded by your doctrine you could see, far from replacing her, Israel of God is being expanded exponentially becoming an innumerable multitude of peoples from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue. But foolish Zionists want to label truth "replacement theology" trying to justify their ignorance of truth!
 

Truther

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Paul makes 3 overriding points in Romans 9–11:
  • He establishes the great and lofty truth of divine election.
  • He determines who true Israel is.
  • He then shows how the Gentiles have been integrated into faithful Israel.
But the central (and overriding) theme that permeates Paul’s teaching in Romans 9–11 is his remnant theology. It is in these chapters that the teaching reaches its apex in regard to content and development. Paul brings much meat to the table and highlights the difference between national Israel and true remnant elect Israel. Paul also references various Old Testament Scriptures to show the continuity of the faithful remnant from the old economy to the new. He then shows on what grounds the Gentiles have been integrated into faithful Israel. He demonstrates how the New Testament congregation of God of all nations constitutes the covenant remnant of God today. He reveals how this elect company has grown to be a significant force on this earth. Paul lays all this out in a very structured, systematic and unambiguous way in these chapters.

There are many that deduce corporate salvation for natural Israel from this. But is Paul contradicting himself in his Romans 9-11 discourse? In one breath in Romans 9:27 he is saying “a remnant shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative), in the next, in Romans 11:26, he is saying “all Israel shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative).

Let us be absolutely assured: Paul is definitely not opposing himself, neither is the Holy Spirit, who inspired him to pen this, confused. He is in no way teaching corporate salvation in Romans 11:25-29, as some would suggest, or else he would be reversing everything he has just taught in the preceding verses and chapters of this book (and his other Epistles) in regard to an elect remnant. Salvation was never secured on the grounds of race; it was always by grace through faith. Moreover, the Gospel opportunity in the New Testament is always shown to be open to all nationalities equally; this includes natural Israel.

The first thing we need to realize here is that Paul opens up his teaching here by initially speaking about ethnic Israel. He then differentiates between the unbelieving element of Israel and the believing component.

In Romans 11:25-29, Paul is basically summing up everything he has just said previous in Romans 9–11, in regard to there being a chosen remnant within natural Israel that will be brought through in this intra-Advent period (while the Gentiles were being brought in). He saw a day when all that belonged to true Israel would finally be completed. That is why he uses the future tense. Greg L. Bahnsen submits: “God’s covenant promise never guaranteed salvation for all of ethnic Israel, says Paul, but it did provide for the inclusion of the Gentiles in salvation” (Gospel Prosperity and the Future of Israel).
I am part of true Israel, also.

But I am in future saved national Israel's promise(covenant).

All of them will be simultaneously saved.

It is the pattern for me, as I was included in their future fulfilled promise....


21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.


Do you think this is about you or them?
 

rwb

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Stop avoiding please. Stop talking on behalf of others. You not only avoid every query put to you, you also cannot help misrepresenting what others believe. This is a very weak tactic and shows you have nothing on Amil. You also cannot biblically support what you believe.

Who do you think that we think we have replaced?

His foolish doctrine believes expanding actually means replacing! Go figure.
 

Truther

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Why do you continue to refuse to acknowledge that "all Israel" is only saved when Gentiles are grafted into the same good olive tree with them? It is as plain as the nose on our face that since Gentiles of faith and Jews of faith are together in ONE good olive tree called "all Israel" then "all Israel" CANNOT be an ethnic people, but all ALL PEOPLE OF FAITH IN CHRIST! All Israel that shall be saved, ONCE MORE is "Israel of God" which matters not what nation one is born.
The good tree is God.

We are grafted into the same tree as they will be.

This is why we are partaker in their future fulfilled promise to the fathers.
 

WPM

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I am part of true Israel, also.

But I am in future saved national Israel's promise(covenant).

All of them will be simultaneously saved.

It is the pattern for me, as I was included in their future fulfilled promise....


21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all.


Do you think this is about you or them?

This happened when Christ came 2000 years ago. He is Israel's only king. He united these two divided peoples with the truth of the Gospel. This is already fulfilled.
 
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Truther

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You are so heavily consumed by Zionism that you are blinded from seeing truth. Believing both Jews of faith and Gentiles of faith together make up "all Israel that shall be saved" is not replacement theology! If you weren't so blinded by your doctrine you could see, far from replacing her, Israel of God is being expanded exponentially becoming an innumerable multitude of peoples from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue. But foolish Zionists want to label truth "replacement theology" trying to justify their ignorance of truth!
Nope, I am heavily consumned by God's promise to the fathers.

Hey, check this out that you overlooked....


6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


Jesus said it is none of the Apostles business when God will restore the kingdom to Israel.

You guys need to start over with your Bible studies.
 

rwb

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You really don't understand the promise to the fathers.

The entire Bible is pointing to that.

You are the one who doesn't understand the promise of God to ALL people! The promise that He would send a Savior to mankind and be born a human. Fully God, and fully human. The line that leads to Christ is what Paul is very clear about. The Seed (Christ) would come through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, not an ethnic Seed, but supernatural, and He would be a blessing for the whole world. That WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall be saved eternally. They, according to Paul, are "Israel of God", a people of faith!
 
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