22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[No Pre-TB]

Premillennialism must ignore Revelation 3:11-12, which, whilst speaking of the coming of Christ, describes the accompanying descent of the heavenly abode.

I think you look to argue with others instead of engaging with them about the word of God. Maybe I'm wrong and I constantly misinterpret your writing.

Did I make an argument to Spiritual Israelite or did I agree and make a statement? I agreed with him and made a statement. Please don't try to cause trouble between believers, working to get them to confess something on a reply which you want to use to attack them with. If you're not, that's wonderful.

 

[Christian Gedge]

In Revelation 3:11-12, Christ promises His people, while speaking of His glorious all-consummating Second Advent, “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem,

Excellent! I had never noticed this about Revelation 3:11-12 before. It definitely places the timing of the coming of the New Jerusalem at Christ's second coming and not 1,000+ years later as Premils imagine.

Is this something you recently noticed? I hadn't seen you post about this before.

Yeah, I felt the same way. Keep them coming.

No. Believed it for years.

And you kept it from us all that time.

I'm kidding. Not sure how I didn't see it before. It's always fun to discover something new.

You’ll have to publish bro. This is good!

 

[WPM]

I think you look to argue with others instead of engaging with them about the word of God. Maybe I'm wrong and I constantly misinterpret your writing.

Did I make an argument to Spiritual Israelite or did I agree and make a statement? I agreed with him and made a statement. Please don't try to cause trouble between believers, working to get them to confess something on a reply which you want to use to attack them with. If you're not, that's wonderful.

Sorry? What are you talking about?

If the NJ comes down at the second coming then that obviously negates the Premil thesis. It's that simple!

 

[No Pre-TB]

Sorry? What are you talking about?

If the NJ comes down at the second coming then that obviously negates the Premil thesis. It's that simple!

You don't know what you did? Ok, I'll repost it.

You replied to me from my reply to Spiritual Israelite,
Premillennialism must ignore Revelation 3:11-12, which, whilst speaking of the coming of Christ, describes the accompanying descent of the heavenly abode.

There was no reason to reply to me with that comment unless you are trying to incite. Do not try to spread discord among believers.

My reply to S.I. in post#6,279 was,
There are many pre-millennials that believe that just as there are many that believe it’s after a thousand year reign.

I agreed with him and added "there are many pre-millennials that (also) believe that" in ref. to timing Christ 2nd coming with the New Jerusalem.

There was no reason to make your divisive comment towards me unless you were trying to bait me.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are many pre-millennials that believe that just as there are many that believe it’s after a thousand year reign.

How are you coming to this conclusion? Where are you getting that idea from? I do not believe that there are many premils who believe the following will occur when Christ returns:

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

I believe a vast majority of premils believe that this will occur 1,000+ years after Christ returns. And it's not hard to see why. Once the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven then "There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain", yet the Premil view demands that there will be more death, mourning, crying and pain after He returns. So, I can't even fathom why any Premil would believe that the New Jerusalem will come down when Christ returns.

 

[WPM]

You don't know what you did? Ok, I'll repost it.

You replied to me from my reply to Spiritual Israelite,
Premillennialism must ignore Revelation 3:11-12, which, whilst speaking of the coming of Christ, describes the accompanying descent of the heavenly abode.

There was no reason to reply to me with that comment unless you are trying to incite. Do not try to spread discord among believers.

My reply to S.I. in post#6,279 was,
There are many pre-millennials that believe that just as there are many that believe it’s after a thousand year reign.

I agreed with him and added "there are many pre-millennials that (also) believe that" in ref. to timing Christ 2nd coming with the New Jerusalem.

There was no reason to make your divisive comment towards me unless you were trying to bait me.

No, I was not trying to bait. Sorry it felt like that.

Ok, so which Premils see the the New Jerusalem coming down at Christ's second coming and not 1,000+ years later? Are you saying this occurs twice - once before and once after the millennium? Or are you saying that some Premils only see it coming before?

 

[No Pre-TB]

How are you coming to this conclusion? Where are you getting that idea from? I do not believe that there are many premils who believe the following will occur when Christ returns:

I come to that conclusion because I speak to other Christians in Christian circles face to face. The idea that no Pre-Millennials believe that is false. Is it the dominant belief? Only God knows. If I had to guess, I'd say it wasn't.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I come to that conclusion because I speak to other Christians in Christian circles face to face. The idea that no Pre-Millennials believe that is false.

I did not say that, of course. What I'm saying is that I don't see how it makes any sense for a Premil to believe that because Revelation 21:1-4 indicates that there will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain once that occurs. How can that be reconciled with the Premil view when Premils believe that death, mourning, crying and pain will continue after Christ returns?

Is it the dominant belief? Only God knows. If I had to guess, I'd say it wasn't.

Is what the dominant belief and for who? Are you asking if believing that the New Jerusalem will come down when Christ returns is the dominant belief of Premils?

 

[No Pre-TB]

No, I was not trying to bait. Sorry it felt like that.

Ok, so which Premils see the the New Jerusalem coming down at Christ's second coming and not 1,000+ years later? Are you saying this occurs twice - once before and once after the millennium? Or are you saying that some Premils only see it coming before?

No problem WPM.

Which premils? I don't understand that question.
Some Premils see Christ 2nd coming happening with the New Jerusalem. Example: They dont believe that the New Jerusalem comes after his 1,000 year reign. It comes with his 2nd advent when the bride makes herself ready.

 

[WPM]

No problem WPM.

Which premils? I don't understand that question.
Some Premils see Christ 2nd coming happening with the New Jerusalem. Example: They dont believe that the New Jerusalem comes after his 1,000 year reign. It comes with his 2nd advent when the bride makes herself ready.

Thanks!

So, what do you believe?

 

[WPM]

It is disingenuous to begin an argument against an others belief, when you are the one erroneously establishing an others belief.

So, where else in the New Testament does it teach a future second millennium after the second coming?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No problem WPM.

Which premils? I don't understand that question.
Some Premils see Christ 2nd coming happening with the New Jerusalem. Example: They dont believe that the New Jerusalem comes after his 1,000 year reign. It comes with his 2nd advent when the bride makes herself ready.

Is that your belief as well? How do you and/or those who see it that way reconcile that belief with it saying that there will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain at that point (Rev 21:1-4)?

 

[No Pre-TB]

I don't see how it makes any sense for a Premil to believe that because Revelation 21:1-4 indicates that there will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain once that occurs.

I don't understand your question. How does that not make sense? What does the belief that Christ will come back and rule on earth for 1k years have to do with understanding his return will coincide with the New Jerusalem?

 

[No Pre-TB]

Is that your belief as well? How do you and/or those who see it that way reconcile that belief with it saying that there will be no more death, mourning, crying or pain at that point (Rev 21:1-4)?

I'd say there is no more death, mourning or pain because those in Christ at his coming will be changed from our terrestrial into celestial bodies. 1 Cor 15:40

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'm don't understand your question. How does that not make sense? What does the belief that Christ will come back and rule on earth for 1k years have to do with understanding his return will coincide with the New Jerusalem?

Please read the following passage that talks about the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven.

Revelation 21:1Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Can you see here that the New Jerusalem will come down from heaven when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in? At that point John indicated that "there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain". So, if this happens when Christ returns then how could Premil be true? Premil believes that death, mourning crying and pain will continue after He returns. Do you see my point now?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I'd say there is no more death, mourning or pain because those in Christ at his coming will be changed from our terrestrial into celestial bodies. 1 Cor 15:40

How are you coming to the conclusion that it's only talking about "those in Christ at his coming" there rather than making a statement that there will literally be no more death, mourning or pain for anyone ever again at that point? It says "the old order of things" will have "passed away" at that point, so it implies that there will literally be no more death for anyone after that.

 

[Taken]

So, where else in the New Testament does it teach a future second millennium after the second coming?

Don’t know of any place in Scripture that teaches a SECOND MILLENNIUM, nor know of anyone who has made that claim.

 

[WPM]

Don’t know of any place in Scripture that teaches a SECOND MILLENNIUM, nor know of anyone who has made that claim.

Where is your corroboration for your opinion of Revelation 20 - that teaches a future thousand years?

 

[Taken]

Where is your corroboration for your opinion of Revelation 20 - that teaches a future thousand years?

Rev 1:
[1] The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
[2] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

 

[No Pre-TB]

How are you coming to the conclusion that it's only talking about "those in Christ at his coming" there rather than making a statement that there will literally be no more death, mourning or pain for anyone ever again at that point? It says "the old order of things" will have "passed away" at that point, so it implies that there will literally be no more death for anyone after that.

Because the New Jerusalem descending is the Church, not all mankind. I suppose you may not understand it from your point of view if you think Rev 20 is a crux. Regardless, I suppose this is something that would require more time to talk to you about. I am limited today though due to family issues.