22 major reasons to abandon the Premil doctrine

[Timtofly]

Yes, the day of the Lord comes in fire and that is the second coming lol.
The day of the Lord comes suddenly like a thief to wipe out the wicked.


1thess 5

The Day of the Lord​

1 Now as to the times and dates, brothers and sisters, you have no need for anything to be written to you.

2 For you yourselves know perfectly well that the day of the [return of the] Lord is coming just as a thief [comes unexpectedly and suddenly] in the night.

3 While they are saying, “Peace and safety [all is well and secure!]” then [in a moment unforeseen] destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains on a woman with child, and they will absolutely not escape [for there will be no way to escape the judgment of the Lord].



You should know this perfectly well having no need for me to write it to you.

You should know that the final harvest happens after the Second Coming. The AoD happens after the final harvest. The 1,000 years happens after the AoD.

The Day of the Lord is the 1,000 year reign.

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

 

[jeffweeder]

You should know that the final harvest happens after the Second Coming. The AoD happens after the final harvest.

How can the AOD happen after the final harvest of wheat and tares?


Matt 13
The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and [as for] the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the weeds are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

40 So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend [those things by which people are led into sin], and all who practice evil [leading others into sin], 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping [over sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [over distress and anger].

43 Then the righteous [those who seek the will of God] will shine forth [radiating the new life] like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears [to hear], let him hear and heed My words.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How can they be sinless if they are not glorified and taken to heaven? Who is this imaginary group? Where did they come from?

From another galaxy maybe? Certainly not from earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In Revelation 3:11-12, Christ promises His people, while speaking of His glorious all-consummating Second Advent, “Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.”

This second coming passage confirms our notion. The heavenly city comes down from heaven with Christ when He returns.

This reading informs us that this “place,” which Christ spoke of has a name; being described as the New Jerusalem and that it “cometh down out of heaven” at His appearing. This truth should help those who struggle with the meaning and timing of Revelation 20, because Revelation 21:1-2 (which all commentators agree) appears immediately after the happenings of Revelation 20. Therefore, it places its appearing, which we have already established coincides with the second coming of the Lord, at the end of the millennium thus revealing a postmillennial appearing of Christ. Christ connects the appearance of the New Jerusalem at His Coming, declaring, “Behold, I come quickly.” It is at this all-consummating event that the New Jerusalem comes “down out of heaven from my God.”

Note that the exact detail described as occurring at the second coming – namely:

The “new Jerusalem” appears.
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven.”
The “new Jerusalem … cometh down out of heaven … from God.”

Further evidence that the prepared New Jerusalem is coming down to the new earth is found in Revelation 21:1-4. It declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

The New Jerusalem does not stay in heaven. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the second coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His Coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.

Excellent! I had never noticed this about Revelation 3:11-12 before. It definitely places the timing of the coming of the New Jerusalem at Christ's second coming and not 1,000+ years later as Premils imagine.

Is this something you recently noticed? I hadn't seen you post about this before.

 

[jeffweeder]

Excellent! I had never noticed this about Revelation 3:11-12 before. It definitely places the timing of the coming of the New Jerusalem at Christ's second coming and not 1,000+ years later as Premils imagine.

Is this something you recently noticed? I hadn't seen you post about this before.

Yeah, I felt the same way. Keep them coming.

 

[WPM]

Excellent! I had never noticed this about Revelation 3:11-12 before. It definitely places the timing of the coming of the New Jerusalem at Christ's second coming and not 1,000+ years later as Premils imagine.

Is this something you recently noticed? I hadn't seen you post about this before.

No. Believed it for years.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yeah, I felt the same way. Keep them coming.

Second coming, final judgment, eternal kingdom

2 Timothy 2:1KJV
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

 

[jeffweeder]

Second coming, final judgment, eternal kingdom

2 Timothy 2:1KJV
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

yep.
2Tim 4

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:
2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
5 But you, be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry
6 For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.
7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith;
8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.


1Pet 4
4 In all this, they are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you; 5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are judged in the flesh as men, they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.
7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer. 8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. 9 Be hospitable to one another without complaint.

 

[Truth7t7]

You should know that the final harvest happens after the Second Coming. The AoD happens after the final harvest. The 1,000 years happens after the AoD.

The Day of the Lord is the 1,000 year reign.

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet."

Chaos and Confusion

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. Believed it for years.

And you kept it from us all that time.

I'm kidding. Not sure how I didn't see it before. It's always fun to discover something new.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Rev 3.11 I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

This does not say that New Jerusalem is coming down at the 2nd Coming of Christ. It is saying that the name of God and of New Jerusalem will be written on the overcoming saints when they overcome. And it is simply described as something that will descend from heaven--nothing about when this will take place.

If you want to know *when* it will take place, you only have to go to Rev 20, where it is described as coming down *after* the 2nd Coming and the Millennial Age.

Rev 20.15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. 21.Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

So the sequence seems pretty clear to me. As we overcome the pressures of Satan to conform to this wicked world, God writes His name on us and the name of the city where we will dwell, the New Jerusalem. And it is after the people judged at the end of the Millennium that this will take place--New Jerusalem will descend out of heaven as a dwelling place for the saints forever.

 

[Timtofly]

How can the AOD happen after the final harvest of wheat and tares?


Matt 13
The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and [as for] the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the weeds are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.

40 So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend [those things by which people are led into sin], and all who practice evil [leading others into sin], 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping [over sorrow and pain] and grinding of teeth [over distress and anger].

43 Then the righteous [those who seek the will of God] will shine forth [radiating the new life] like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears [to hear], let him hear and heed My words.

Because the 7th Trumpet happens after the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders.

The 7th Trumpet is not first and in reverse order.

Those verses have Jesus and the angels on the earth. That happened at the 6th Seal. John presented every event in the order they will happen.

Seals, the harvest of church.

Trumpets, the harvest of the sheep and goats.

Thunders, the harvest of the wheat and tares.

Then the 7th Trumpet is the closing ceremony declaring the harvest over.

 

[Truth7t7]

Because the 7th Trumpet happens after the first 6 Trumpets and the 7 Thunders.

The 7th Trumpet is not first and in reverse order.

Those verses have Jesus and the angels on the earth. That happened at the 6th Seal. John presented every event in the order they will happen.

Seals, the harvest of church.

Trumpets, the harvest of the sheep and goats.

Thunders, the harvest of the wheat and tares.

Then the 7th Trumpet is the closing ceremony declaring the harvest over.

Confusion

 

[WPM]

And you kept it from us all that time.

I'm kidding. Not sure how I didn't see it before. It's always fun to discover something new.

Agreed bro. Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[Taken]

(1) Premil is totally preoccupied with, and dependent upon, one chapter in the Bible – Revelation 20.

It is disingenuous to begin an argument against an others belief, when you are the one erroneously establishing an others belief.

 

[Truth7t7]

It is disingenuous to begin an argument against an others belief, when you are the one erroneously establishing an others belief.

He has stated the truth, pre-millennialism finds their foundations in false claims in interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6 "Fact"

 

[Taken]

He has stated the truth, pre-millennialism finds their foundations in false claims in interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6 "Fact"

Hogwash.

Making a long list of any entire groups supposed beliefs and then disagreeing with those beliefs is A Disingenuous TACTIC.

Individuals are quite capable of stating their own Beliefs and an other individual can respond in agreement or disagreement.

Jesus offered all men opportunity to become according To God, MADE whole, Before a mans Physical Death, and the favorable consequence, of escaping being appointed to Wrath, Which Shall occur during the Tribulations Sent down from Heaven.

You have not shown ONE scripture of any man having been MADE Whole, (body, soul, spirit) (by, through, of Christ the Lord Jesus) ON the face of the earth During any Phase of the Tribulations (7 Seals, 7 Trumps, The 3 Woes during the Trumps, or the 7 vials).

Yet Scripture itself reveals Exactly WHERE those having been MADE Whole for the last 2,000 years ARE, during the Tribulations Sent Down from Heaven.

 

[CadyandZoe]

He has stated the truth, pre-millennialism finds their foundations in false claims in interpretation of Revelation 20:1-6 "Fact"

Where does the word "amillennialism" originate if not Revelation 20:1-6?

 

[No Pre-TB]

Excellent! I had never noticed this about Revelation 3:11-12 before. It definitely places the timing of the coming of the New Jerusalem at Christ's second coming and not 1,000+ years later as Premils imagine.

Is this something you recently noticed? I hadn't seen you post about this before.

There are many pre-millennials that believe that just as there are many that believe it’s after a thousand year reign.

 

[WPM]

There are many pre-millennials that believe that just as there are many that believe it’s after a thousand year reign.

This exposes the Premil thesis.

Revelation 21:1-4. It declares, “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.”

Premillennialism must ignore Revelation 3:11-12, which, whilst speaking of the coming of Christ, describes the accompanying descent of the heavenly abode. This corresponds with the end of the millennium. It descends to the new earth then. This forbids the Premil thesis. We should not overlook: the detail described elsewhere in Scripture as occurring at the second coming of the Lord carefully matches that which takes place at the end of the millennium (definitely not the beginning). It is the “holy city, new Jerusalem” that is figuratively “prepared as a bride adorned for her husband” and which corresponds with the Lord’s teaching in John 14. This city is the only “prepared place” alluded to in the whole of the New Testament. This city, which appears with Christ at His coming, is undoubtedly a heavenly “place” and is the single focus of every true saint of God – the place of eternal peace and rest from sin, the effects of sin (including death), and all sinners forever.

Knitting all these passages together reinforces the Amillennial and Postmillennial positions that Revelation 20 is speaking about a current period of time. It is clear Premillennialism has a major problem here. First, John 14:1-3 ties Christ to the heavenly city and presents that city, which is being prepared, as the eternal hope of the saints. If that city does not appear until after the millennium as a Premillennial reading of Revelation 20 would require then the saints will not experience that prepared city for over 1,000 years.