Why Antiochus Epiphanes IV Is Not The Little Horn - Part 2: "exceeding great"

[3 Resurrections]

Actually, the Hebrew word selection for the context of Dan. 9:24-27 is "decreed" and NOT "cut off" or "designate".
H2850
חתך
châthak
khaw-thak'
A primitive root; properly to cut off, that is, (figuratively) to decree
KJV Usage: determine.

Just some thoughts on this "cutting" reference...

In the OT, the manner in which a serious covenant or an agreement between two parties was made was done by cutting an animal or animals in half. God did this with Abraham in Genesis 15:8-21 to confirm the absolute certainty of His promises to him when He told Abraham to cut all those chosen beasts in half. Then God as a smoking furnace and a burning lamp passed between those pieces. This cutting of animals in half was a well-known ancient practice of confirming a covenant promise between two parties. (The idea being that the one who broke that covenant would suffer the same fate of being cut in half should they prove to be unfaithful to their promised covenant.)

We today actually use something of the same language when we "cut a deal" with someone. In Daniel, those 70 weeks of years were "determined" (or "cut") for Daniel's people in order to accomplish those 6 promised things that would most certainly come to pass during that period of time. The coming "Messiah the Prince" would "confirm the covenant with many" during that last 70th "week" of years.

To "cut", in OT terms, is to make a covenant.

 

[Earburner]

The context of the words "for thy people and for thy holy city" demands "cut off" aka "cut off a portion which will pertain only to Jews and Jerusalem" refers to cutting off the 490 from the 2300.

Sorry, I don't see how the words "cut off" can be applied to cutting off 490 years from 2300 DAYS, unless of course one fabricates and rearranges the Hebrew scripture for "days" to "years", to suit their own form of doctrine.
Dan. 8[14] And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days [dusks]; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

H6153
ערב
‛ereb
eh'-reb
From H6150; dusk
KJV Usage: + day, even (-ing, tide), night.

God counts time for a day and/or days, to be from evening (dusk) to morning:
Gen.1[5] And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening [H6153] and the morning were the first day.

Orthodox Israel still follows the same ordinance set by God, for their recording of time.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You should be saying your sorry for misleading others.
Thankfully you not able to mislead me because I understand the first beast of revelation is not the man of sin in 2 thes.

I rejoice in what I teach for it exalts and glorified the Lord Jesus.

You err greatly in that you forget :

Dan. 7:

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

So tell us who is the fourth beast that the ten kingdoms of which you demand Syria, Egypt and Jordan arise. What are the other 7?

Israel existed long before the 67 war. Unless yoou are allegorizing and saying Israel from 1948.

Also Rev. 17:

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Egypt and syria already were kingdoms in teh days of jesus! And those ten kings have one mind- according to you it is to give power (authority) to Israel!!!!!!!!

Sorry but your reinterpreted eschatology does not pass Scriptural muster.

 

[tailgator]

Yes,those ten kings de

I rejoice in what I teach for it exalts and glorified the Lord Jesus.

You err greatly in that you forget :

Dan. 7:

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

So tell us who is the fourth beast that the ten kingdoms of which you demand Syria, Egypt and Jordan arise. What are the other 7?

Israel existed long before the 67 war. Unless yoou are allegorizing and saying Israel from 1948.

Also Rev. 17:

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Egypt and syria already were kingdoms in teh days of jesus! And those ten kings have one mind- according to you it is to give power (authority) to Israel!!!!!!!!

Sorry but your reinterpreted eschatology does not pass Scriptural muster.

Those ten kings definitely have one mind.

Revelation 17:13
These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Psalms 83
With one mind they plot together;
they form an alliance against you—
6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,
of Moab and the Hagrites,
7 Byblos, Ammon and Amalek,
Philistia, with the people of Tyre.
8 Even Assyria has joined them
to reinforce Lot’s descendants.[b]
9 Do to them as you did to Midian,
as you did to Sisera and Jabin at the river Kishon,
10 who perished at Endor
and became like dung on the ground.
11 Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb,
all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna,
12 who said, “Let us take possession
of the pasturelands of God.”


Could you name one of them who doesn't think they do Allah's will?They are told to take back the land which was taken from them in the Hadith.

 

[tailgator]

I rejoice in what I teach for it exalts and glorified the Lord Jesus.

You err greatly in that you forget :

Dan. 7:

19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.

21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

So tell us who is the fourth beast that the ten kingdoms of which you demand Syria, Egypt and Jordan arise. What are the other 7?

Israel existed long before the 67 war. Unless yoou are allegorizing and saying Israel from 1948.

Also Rev. 17:

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Egypt and syria already were kingdoms in teh days of jesus! And those ten kings have one mind- according to you it is to give power (authority) to Israel!!!!!!!!

Sorry but your reinterpreted eschatology does not pass Scriptural muster.

Oh wait.You don't believe Muslims fight against the lamb.You believe christians in Europe do.

 

[Earburner]

From what I've read,the christians in Israel are persecuted by the antichrist Jews in Israel.That is the tribulation the church suffers in Israel for 42 months.
Then God causes many nations to rise up against the apostate Israel which worships the beast and destroys them.
Then Christ comes and resurrects the christians who were killed in Israel who did not worship Israel or it's image nor recieve it's mark.They will reign with Christ and will be God's chosen people above all.nations.That is the covenant God made with the children of Israel.

The unbelievers in Israel are not God's chosen people.

When one looks at the symbolism of king Neb's image/statue, your concept of understanding is not all that hard to be believed.
Dan. 2:31-35.
[33] His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
Focussing on the 4th beast, the Roman Empire, being symbolized as Iron, we see that it devolves into a lesser state of it's manifestation, in that of being two feet of ten toes, being Iron, mixed with clay ,of being "partly strong and partly broken".

However, before we get to that, we see that earlier in that symbolizm, there is the division into two legs of Iron, being that of the Eastern empire and the Western empire.
Now, what's interesting to contemplate is, both feet, each having five toes come from the two Iron legs of the divided fourth beast.

Could it be, that Five are from the Eastern empire, and five are from the Western empire??

[34] Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands [Jesus], which smote the image upon his FEET that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
[35] Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

 

[tailgator]

When one looks at the symbolism of king Neb's image/statue, your concept of understanding is not all that hard to be believed.
Dan. 2:31-35.
[33] His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay.
Focussing on the 4th beast, the Roman Empire, being symbolized as Iron, we see that it devolves into a lesser state of it's manifestation, in that of being two feet of ten toes, being Iron, mixed with clay ,of being "partly strong and partly broken".

However, before we get to that, we see that earlier in that symbolizm, there is the division into two legs of Iron, being that of the Eastern empire and the Western empire.
Now, what's interesting to contemplate is, both feet, each having five toes come from the two Iron legs of the divided fourth beast.

Could it be, that Five are from the Eastern empire, and five are from the Western empire??

[34] Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands [Jesus], which smote the image upon his FEET that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
[35] Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

The kingdom im seeing as a divided kingdom isn't Rome.Its the promised land where Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom was .I suppose not many people realize Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom was part of the promised land but it is.The kingdom stretches from the Euphrates to the Nile.

The kingdom in which the beast dwells is the same kingdom spoken of below.After the beast is destroyed of ofcorse.

Isaiah 19
18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the Lord of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.

19 In that day shall there be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the Lord.

20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the Lord because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.

21 And the Lord shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the Lord in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the Lord, and perform it.

22 And the Lord shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the Lord, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.

23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:

25 Whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance



Europe will still be Europe as it is today.Its this kingdom Isaiah is speaking of that is given to the saints

 

[Earburner]

The kingdom im seeing as a divided kingdom isn't Rome.Its the promised land where Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom was .I suppose not many people realize Nebuchadnezzar's kingdom was part of the promised land but it is.The kingdom stretches from the Euphrates to the Nile.

I am thinking that you do not understand Dan. 7:1-14 all that well, in regards to the timeline of succession for each of the four world ruling beasts. The fourth beast was the Roman Empire, as shown also in king Neb's dream. Dan. 2:31-35

Which modern day countries did the Roman Empire cover? [Map] | The Roman Empire

Above is the map of the fullest possible extent of the empire, including eventually abandoned German territories up to the Elbe river, the temporary Dacian,

roman-empire.net

 

[tailgator]

I am thinking that you do not understand Dan. 7:1-14 all that well, in regards to the timeline of succession for each of the four world ruling beasts. The fourth beast was the Roman Empire, as shown also in king Neb's dream. Dan. 2:31-35

Daniel 7 has nothing to do with Rome.

Rome was never promised to Abrahams seed.


Daniel 7 is Abrahams seed receiving the promised land.It takes place at the coming of Christ when the beast is destroyed.

Why do you believe Abrahams seed would inherit Rome after God had promised the land of Canaan for an everlasting possssion ?


Daniel 7

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.



Here the same saints are reigning with Christ in the promised land.

Revelation 20

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Exodus 19:6
you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’ These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites.”



This holy people and kingdom of priests are not in Rome.This is the children of Israel who have kept the covenant with God.And God gives them the land of Canaan for an everlasting possession.
How you get the kingdom of God mixed up with Rome is beyond me.Maybe you were looking in the wrong direction to begin with.You should have been paying attention to the promised land instead of Rome.

 

[tailgator]

Revelation 20
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.




Do people honestly believe the beloved city where the saints are in verse 9 above is Rome?

What are people thinking?

 

[Earburner]

Daniel 7 has nothing to do with Rome.

Rome was never promised to Abrahams seed.

Then maybe, from your point of view, you will have to tell who the four beasts were.

 

[tailgator]

Then maybe, from your point of view, you will have to tell who the four beasts were.

They would all have to be from the promised land.
And guess what,Persia was not an inferior kingdom to Babylon.It was about ten times larger and lasted far longer.It whipped Babylon in one night .
How was Persia inferior to Babylon?
Answer-It wasn't .

Daniel 2:39
After you, another kingdom will arise, inferior to yours. Next, a third kingdom, one of bronze, will rule over the whole earth.


There is no possibly way Persia was inferior to Babylon.Everything Babylon had ,Persia had and ten times more.Persia even owned Babylon itself.
.Look.at the size difference in this video.

Also pay close attention to what happens to the kingdom at the very end of the video.It is divided just as toes are divided.
After the ten horns come up,the little horn comes up Last.

 

[tailgator]

Then maybe, from your point of view, you will have to tell who the four beasts were.

Daniel 7
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;


Jesus told us all.along who will persecute the saints.


Luke 11:49
Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute:




Its not Rome that is going to kill it's christians.
It's Israel.Any of it's christians that would speak up against it like Jesus did.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Yes,those ten kings de

Those ten kings definitely have one mind.

Revelation 17:13
These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Psalms 83
With one mind they plot together;
they form an alliance against you—
6 the tents of Edom and the Ishmaelites,
of Moab and the Hagrites,
7 Byblos, Ammon and Amalek,
Philistia, with the people of Tyre.
8 Even Assyria has joined them
to reinforce Lot’s descendants.[b]
9 Do to them as you did to Midian,
as you did to Sisera and Jabin at the river Kishon,
10 who perished at Endor
and became like dung on the ground.
11 Make their nobles like Oreb and Zeeb,
all their princes like Zebah and Zalmunna,
12 who said, “Let us take possession
of the pasturelands of God.”


Could you name one of them who doesn't think they do Allah's will?They are told to take back the land which was taken from them in the Hadith.

Your problem is that the one mind the ten kings have is to give their authority to the beast (antichrist) They will definitely not do that as they cry death to Israel.

And you called Egypt one of the ten and they are not mentioned here!!!!!!!!!!

You prove the point that when one has been indoctrinated in an allegorical reinterpretation of SCripture, one verse may support them, but the whole counsel of Scripture on that subject makes that reinterpretation fall apart.

But give a sound biblical argument why we should accept your allegorical interpretation and not one of the many many others who also claim theirs is the correct inteprpretation.

 

[tailgator]

Your problem is that the one mind the ten kings have is to give their authority to the beast (antichrist) They will definitely not do that as they cry death to Israel.

And you called Egypt one of the ten and they are not mentioned here!!!!!!!!!!

You prove the point that when one has been indoctrinated in an allegorical reinterpretation of SCripture, one verse may support them, but the whole counsel of Scripture on that subject makes that reinterpretation fall apart.

But give a sound biblical argument why we should accept your allegorical interpretation and not one of the many many others who also claim theirs is the correct inteprpretation.

You are mistaken.

Egypt is mentioned as receiving the plague God brings upon the nations that attack Jerusalem
Europe and Rome are not mentioned at all.


Your problem is,you don't know the word of God.
You should study more before making such a ridiculous argument.Anyone who believes these are Europeans attacking Israel are complete ......

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 20
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.




Do people honestly believe the beloved city where the saints are in verse 9 above is Rome?

What are people thinking?

The holy city in the book of Revelation is New Jerusalem (Rev 11:2, Rev 21:2), so that is the identity of the beloved city in that verse as well. For we have not come to the mount that can be touched, but rather to the heavenly Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:18-22). Revelation 20:9 is about persecution against the church worldwide.

 

[tailgator]

The holy city in the book of Revelation is New Jerusalem (Rev 11:2, Rev 21:2), so that is the identity of the beloved city in that verse as well. For we have not come to the mount that can be touched, but rather to the heavenly Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:18-22). Revelation 20:9 is about persecution against the church worldwide.

First.Gog and the great multitude with Gog is on earth ,not in heaven when they surround the beloved city.Then fire comes down from heaven and consumes them.

Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.




Scripture plainly says they are on earth and compass the beloved city.

went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:



This takes place before New Jerusalem comes down from.heaven in the next chapter.

 

[tailgator]

The holy city in the book of Revelation is New Jerusalem (Rev 11:2, Rev 21:2), so that is the identity of the beloved city in that verse as well. For we have not come to the mount that can be touched, but rather to the heavenly Mount Zion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Hebrews 12:18-22). Revelation 20:9 is about persecution against the church worldwide.

PS
Ezekiel 38 as also shows the resurected saints dwelling in the land of Israel when Gog comes against them. They are not in the sky.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

First.Gog and the great multitude with Gog is on earth ,not in heaven when they surround the beloved city.

Where did I say otherwise? I didn't. Did you miss my reference to Hebrews 12:18-22?

Hebrews 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake). 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Can you see here that this is talking about a present reality for us? We are now part of the new heavenly Jerusalem. It is the holy city (Rev 21:2). What other city could be considered the "beloved city"? Again, Revelation 20:9 is symbolically portraying the worldwide persecution of the church. Of the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, that we are spiritually part of even now.

As Paul said:

Ephesians 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved). 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Then fire comes down from heaven and consumes them.

Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Right. This lines up with 2 Peter 3:10-12 because it involves people from throughout the earth who number "as the sand of the sea".

Scripture plainly says they are on earth and compass the beloved city.

went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:

I didn't say otherwise. Please read what I actually say.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

PS
Ezekiel 38 as also shows the resurected saints dwelling in the land of Israel when Gog comes against them. They are not in the sky.

Tell that to your straw man. I never said in any way, shape or form that Revelation 20:9 isn't talking about things happening on earth.