Why Antiochus Epiphanes IV Is Not The Little Horn - Part 2: "exceeding great"

[Phoneman777]

Maybe now you are made ready by His Holy Spirit to understand how Jesus used "typology". Not in regards of WHAT the building Temple/sanctuary was, but rather WHO.
John 2
[18] Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What SIGN shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy [desolate] THIS temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Now you're saying the "temple" that was to be cleansed after 2300 days is Jesus Who is "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners"? Wow!

I am not here to berate anyone's system of belief, but I am here to show that ALL of such are mixed with the wisdom of men, and have not understood that we all individually know, that we only know in part.
Therefore, I safely conclude and say: "NONE of the churches have ALL of His Truth, but all of the churches have SOME of His Truth." 1 Cor. 2:5

If you're going to criticize and reject Miller on the basis of his having wrongly understood prophetic passages, then you'll have to reject the word of the disciples because they, too, wrongly understood the prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah.

Ahh yes, the "Great Awakening" happened to all the churches, whereby many ignored it, others entertained it, but few embraced it.
Even the unsaved turned towards it, but went entirely off course into "spiritism".

Since when has truth ever been popular? The crowd has never been right!

In Noah's day the crowd drowned.
In Moses' day the crowd refused to enter the promised land.
In Jesus' day, the crowd cried, "Crucify Him!".

The Great Religious Awakening was due to fulfilled prophecies in Joel and Revelation 6.

However, do not get high and mighty in your own "doctrines of men", for the truth of Jesus is now being dispersed to individuals, who are NOT attending "CHURCH-ianity, including yours.

I don't preach doctrines of men - I preach Protestant Historicism borne out of the God-ordained Protestant Reformation.

You preach Jesuit eschatology, especially the Jesuit Preterist view that Antiochus Epiphanes IV is the Little Horn.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The beast which received the deadly wound which was healed calls itself by the name Israel
It is described as being a little horn by Daniel.

The other ten horns are the predominately Muslim nations which dwell in the kingdom.The kingdom is the land from the Euphrates to the Nile .The promised land.



It's like you believe Europe is antichrist and the middle east is full of holy people.You don't expect those Muslims to dwell in the kingdom through the millinium do you.

YOu rlast line is simply a lie.

I am still waiting for you to name the ten Muslim nations.

Your not a faithful follower of Mohammed are you?

No I am a faithful follower of Jesus for over 60 years now! Still waiting for you to name these ten muslim nations you daid will attack Jerusalem

Now you need to prove that Isrtael is th eantichrist despite the bible clearly calling it a person and not a nation.

Please also answer what Scriptures means when it says the antichrist will suffer a mortal wound a recovers from it!

How does Israel as a nation do all sorts of signs and wonders in fron of Satan so that the whole world will wonder after Israel?

 

[tailgator]

YOu rlast line is simply a lie.

I am still waiting for you to name the ten Muslim nations.

No I am a faithful follower of Jesus for over 60 years now! Still waiting for you to name these ten muslim nations you daid will attack Jerusalem

Now you need to prove that Isrtael is th eantichrist despite the bible clearly calling it a person and not a nation.

Please also answer what Scriptures means when it says the antichrist will suffer a mortal wound a recovers from it!

How does Israel as a nation do all sorts of signs and wonders in fron of Satan so that the whole world will wonder after Israel?

I've already answered the first question. The same nations that share the promised land with Israel.
Do you not have a map?

You need to study more before asking another question.
The first beast isnt the one doing the signs and wonders in revelation 13. The second beast is.

The least you could do before attempting to teach others is memorize what you are trying to teach.If you can't do that then you have no business attempting to teach others what you yourself don't know or understand.
You just made yourself look like an

Revelation 13

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

 

[Earburner]

Now you're saying the "temple" that was to be cleansed after 2300 days is Jesus Who is "holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners"? Wow!

1. "Jonah and the whale" was a fulfilled event.
Jesus used it in typology to point to Himself:
Mat. 12
[40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

2. "The 2300 DAYS" was a fulfilled event,
as it happened to the Jewish Temple/sanctuary by AE-lV
Jesus used it in typology to point to Himself:
Mark 13
[14] But when YE [Israel] shall SEE the abomination of desolation [destruction- the shedding of innocent blood Prov. 6:17], spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains:

3. Jerusalem and the temple building had been in restoration since the going forth of the commandment, in the days of Artexerxes (Dan. 9:25). It was a fulfilled event upon the end of the 69th week.

The beginning of the 70th week was when Jesus was baptized by John, of which between the two, was a joint ministry of "the Two Witnesses". Zech. 4:14.

Jesus used the temple building in typology, to point to Himself, saying: "Destroy [desolate] this temple [meaning His mortal body], and I will raise [resurrect] it in three days". John 2:19-21.

If you're going to criticize and reject Miller on the basis of his having wrongly understood prophetic passages, then you'll have to reject the word of the disciples because they, too, wrongly understood the prophecies concerning the coming of the Messiah.

Since when has truth ever been popular? The crowd has never been right!

In Noah's day the crowd drowned.
In Moses' day the crowd refused to enter the promised land.
In Jesus' day, the crowd cried, "Crucify Him!".

The Great Religious Awakening was due to fulfilled prophecies in Joel and Revelation 6.

I don't preach doctrines of men - I preach Protestant Historicism borne out of the God-ordained Protestant Reformation.

You preach Jesuit eschatology, especially the Jesuit Preterist view that Antiochus Epiphanes IV is the Little Horn.

Yes, I agree. The truth is NOT popular among the crowd.
I am not here to up end anyone's present understanding, but rather to reveal how Jesus used past FULFILLED events through typology.

The 2300 Day prophecy has been fulfilled.

The 70 Weeks prophecy, being the 70th week, was also literally fulfilled, by John the Baptist (6 mos.) and Jesus (3 years), being that of the two anointed ones, as shown in Zech. 4:14.
Yes! Even that of Rev 3:3 has been fulfilled!!
Rev. 3
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore [1260] days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

[Phoneman777]

1. "Jonah and the whale" was a fulfilled event.
Jesus used it in typology to point to Himself:
Mat. 12
[40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

2. "The 2300 DAYS" was a fulfilled event,
as it happened to the Jewish Temple/sanctuary by AE-lV
Jesus used it in typology to point to Himself:
Mark 13
[14] But when YE [Israel] shall SEE the abomination of desolation [destruction- the shedding of innocent blood Prov. 6:17], spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains:

3. Jerusalem and the temple building had been in restoration since the going forth of the commandment, in the days of Artexerxes (Dan. 9:25). It was a fulfilled event upon the end of the 69th week.

The beginning of the 70th week was when Jesus was baptized by John, of which between the two, was a joint ministry of "the Two Witnesses". Zech. 4:14.

Jesus used the temple building in typology, to point to Himself, saying: "Destroy [desolate] this temple [meaning His mortal body], and I will raise [resurrect] it in three days". John 2:19-21.


Yes, I agree. The truth is NOT popular among the crowd.
I am not here to up end anyone's present understanding, but rather to reveal how Jesus used past FULFILLED events through typology.

The 2300 Day prophecy has been fulfilled.

The 70 Weeks prophecy, being the 70th week, was also literally fulfilled, by John the Baptist (6 mos.) and Jesus (3 years), being that of the two anointed ones, as shown in Zech. 4:14.
Yes! Even that of Rev 3:3 has been fulfilled!!
Rev. 3
[3] And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore [1260] days, clothed in sackcloth.

Look, you're a victim of a flawed foundation - you insist on interpreting the 70 Weeks as symbolic, but the 2300 Days from which the 70 are cut off, as literal.

You refuse to concede that Antiochus arose at the midpoint of the reign of the four kingdoms so that he can be the Little Horn which arises at the end of those kingdoms.

You refuse to concede that Antiochus' suspension of temple sacrifices was neither 1150 or 2300 literal days.

And, you insist on treating the lying books of Maccabees as being on par with Scripture.

 

[Earburner]

Look, you're a victim of a flawed foundation - you insist on interpreting the 70 Weeks as symbolic, but the 2300 Days from which the 70 are cut off, as literal.

Wrong! I am extremely Blessed.
Wrong! The 70 week prophecy is separate and literal.
The 2300 days prophecy is also separately literal, each having nothing to do with the other in prophecy.

You want to skip AE-lV, and insert Titus of 70AD as being the person who took away the daily sacrifice. Unfortunately in your view, that is an absolute misinterpretation of Dan. 9:27.
The sacrificial death of Jesus, by His shed blood, is what actually eclipsed and "took away" the Jewish "daily sacrifice" of animals.
Jesus' shed blood literally spoke ("cried from the ground") of better things than that of Abel. Mat. 23:35; Heb. 12:24.
Therefore, there is no future "little horn" to come. AE-lV is the ONLY "little horn" that shall ever be, and is without a doubt completely fulfilled.
However, Jesus used it through typology to point to Himself, of Him being the one who would permantly take away the daily sacrifice, whereby the crucifixion/murder of God's only begotten Son, was indeed the worst abomination unto God, being that of the shedding of His Son's innocent blood.

You refuse to concede that Antiochus arose at the midpoint of the reign of the four kingdoms so that he can be the Little Horn which arises at the end of those kingdoms.

Again, it's about "the latter time of their kingdom", which was STILL the 3rd Beast, aka the Grecian Empire. Dan. 8 is very much in detail about it.

You refuse to concede that Antiochus' suspension of temple sacrifices was neither 1150 or 2300 literal days.

Absolutely.
All of it, the "taking away" of the daily sacrifice, and the "setting up" of the abomination, took place in 1290 days, being within the 2300 days.
2300 minus 1290= 1010 days, of which is time consumed by the "troddening down" of both the sanctuary, and the people of Israel.

And, you insist on treating the lying books of Maccabees as being on par with Scripture.

False!! Everyone knows that the books of Maccabees is a historical Jewish account of what actually happened to Israel for 2300 literal days, during "the latter time of the Grecian empire, the "3rd Beast".

 

[Phoneman777]

Wrong! I am extremely Blessed.
Wrong! The 70 week prophecy is separate and literal.
The 2300 days prophecy is also separately literal, each having nothing to do with the other in prophecy.

This statement is to me incredible. A blind man can see the two prophecies are linked, as shown below:

Gabriel came to explain Daniel's 2300 Days confusion and the words he used were the 70 Weeks.
Gabriel said "consider the mareh" which Hebrew word exclusively refers to the 2300 Days "vision".
Gabriel said the 70 Weeks are "cut off" and the only time period within a mile of the 70 is the 2300.

Three irrefutable, undeniable facts proving the intrinsic tie between the 70 and the 2300, and yet you flippantly ignore them in order to establish the false idea that Antiochus suspended temple services for 1150 or 2300 literal days though I've shown you several times that Josephus says 1260 days and others say 1090 days, neither of which equal your 1150 or 2300.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I've already answered the first question. The same nations that share the promised land with Israel.
Do you not have a map?

I asked you to name them. There are not ten Muslim nations that are in the promised land given to Israel.

You need to study more before asking another question.
The first beast isnt the one doing the signs and wonders in revelation 13. The second beast is.

Sorry but you are so wrong!

Revelation 13

King James Version

​

13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

2 Thessalonians 2

King James Version

​

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

So unless you believe Satan cannot do false miracles, then you are right, otherwise you are wrong.

The least you could do before attempting to teach others is memorize what you are trying to teach.If you can't do that then you have no business attempting to teach others what you yourself don't know or understand.
You just made yourself look like an

Revelation 13

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Well I shall let my pastors and mentors decide if I am qualified to teach or not. and they have highly approved. thank you very much.

YOu need to read all of the SAcriptures concerning the antichrist!

There is no doubt that the false prophet does miracles, but the AC does them as well.

2 Thessalonians 2:7-9

King James Version

​

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

 

[tailgator]

I asked you to name them. There are not ten Muslim nations that are in the promised land given to Israel.

Sorry but you are so wrong!

Revelation 13​

​

King James Version​

​

​

13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

2 Thessalonians 2​

​

King James Version​

​

​

2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

So unless you believe Satan cannot do false miracles, then you are right, otherwise you are wrong.

Well I shall let my pastors and mentors decide if I am qualified to teach or not. and they have highly approved. thank you very much.

YOu need to read all of the SAcriptures concerning the antichrist!

There is no doubt that the false prophet does miracles, but the AC does them as well.

2 Thessalonians 2:7-9​

​

King James Version​

​

​

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

You should be saying your sorry for misleading others.
Thankfully you not able to mislead me because I understand the first beast of revelation is not the man of sin in 2 thes.

The man of sin is actually the king of the north who gives the second beast to the first.

Here is a video of the ten horns rising before the little horn.The little horn comes up last.The promised land stretches from the Euphrates river to the Nile.

The three horns which were humbled by the little horn were the kings of Egypt,Syria and Jordan.That was the 6 day war of 1967.

 

[Earburner]

This statement is to me incredible. A blind man can see the two prophecies are linked, as shown below:

Gabriel came to explain Daniel's 2300 Days confusion and the words he used were the 70 Weeks.
Gabriel said "consider the mareh" which Hebrew word exclusively refers to the 2300 Days "vision".
Gabriel said the 70 Weeks are "cut off" and the only time period within a mile of the 70 is the 2300.

Three irrefutable, undeniable facts proving the intrinsic tie between the 70 and the 2300, and yet you flippantly ignore them in order to establish the false idea that Antiochus suspended temple services for 1150 or 2300 literal days though I've shown you several times that Josephus says 1260 days and others say 1090 days, neither of which equal your 1150 or 2300.

Dan. 9
[21] Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer**, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
[22] And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
[23] At the beginning** of thy supplications the commandment came forth [to me], and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

(The 70 weeks of years is an overview) :
[24] Seventy weeks are determined [decreed, not cut off] upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
** Q. What beginning?
A. The beginning of Daniel's supplications of seeking for meaning in Dan. 8
Dan. 8
[15] And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
[16] And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called ["commanded"], and said, Gabriel,  MAKE this man to understand the vision.
In Dan. 8:16 is when "the commandment was given [to Gabriel]", and so Gabriel, after providing the overview of the 70 weeks [in Dan. 9:24-28], began to interpret the vision that Daniel HAD received in Dan. 7:1-28

The vision of the 2300 days, interpreted by Gabriel:
Dan. 8[19] And he [Gabriel] said, Behold, I will  MAKE thee know what shall be in the last end of THE indignation: for at the time appointed the end [of the "Age of Indignation"] shall be.
[20] The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
[21] And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
[22] Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation [the 3rd beast] but not in his power.
>>[23] And in the latter time of their kingdom [of the 3rd beast], when the transgressors are come to the full, a king [Antiochus Epiphanes lV] of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up [during the 2300 days].
[24] And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people [Israel].
[25] And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
[26] And the vision OF the EVENING and the MORNING which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. [from 555 BC., when Daniel received the vision- Dan. 7:1, to the first appearance of the Messiah-Jesus, beginning the 70th week, with John the Baptist- the "two annointed ones".]

 

[Earburner]

This statement is to me incredible. A blind man can see the two prophecies are linked, as shown below:

Gabriel came to explain Daniel's 2300 Days confusion and the words he used were the 70 Weeks.

What???
You are the one saying that the 2300 days is actually 2300 years, being "cut off" from the 70 weeks, and then you fabricate that "cut off" to show up in 1844 AD, attempting to show that being the "cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary".
And you think that I'm on the wild side???
I am more of a historicist with my writing and scriptural time lines, than you'll ever be.

 

[Phoneman777]

Dan. 9
[21] Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer**, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
[22] And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
[23] At the beginning** of thy supplications the commandment came forth [to me], and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

(The 70 weeks of years is an overview) :
[24] Seventy weeks are determined [decreed, not cut off] upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
** Q. What beginning?
A. The beginning of Daniel's supplications of seeking for meaning in Dan. 8
Dan. 8
[15] And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, and sought for the meaning, then, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man.
[16] And I heard a man's voice between the banks of Ulai, which called ["commanded"], and said, Gabriel,  MAKE this man to understand the vision.
In Dan. 8:16 is when "the commandment was given [to Gabriel]", and so Gabriel, after providing the overview of the 70 weeks [in Dan. 9:24-28], began to interpret the vision that Daniel HAD received in Dan. 7:1-28

The vision of the 2300 days, interpreted by Gabriel:
Dan. 8[19] And he [Gabriel] said, Behold, I will  MAKE thee know what shall be in the last end of THE indignation: for at the time appointed the end [of the "Age of Indignation"] shall be.
[20] The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
[21] And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
[22] Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation [the 3rd beast] but not in his power.
>>[23] And in the latter time of their kingdom [of the 3rd beast], when the transgressors are come to the full, a king [Antiochus Epiphanes lV] of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up [during the 2300 days].
[24] And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people [Israel].
[25] And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
[26] And the vision OF the EVENING and the MORNING which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days. [from 555 BC., when Daniel received the vision- Dan. 7:1, to the first appearance of the Messiah-Jesus, beginning the 70th week, with John the Baptist- the "two annointed ones".]

I know what the text says, which is where I got the three undeniable textual facts for why the 70 and the 2300 are intrinsically tied, making the 2300 days to be as much a literal 2300 years as the 70 Weeks are 490 years.

 

[Phoneman777]

What???
You are the one saying that the 2300 days is actually 2300 years, being "cut off" from the 70 weeks, and then you fabricate that "cut off" to show up in 1844 AD, attempting to show that being the "cleansing of the Heavenly Sanctuary".
And you think that I'm on the wild side???
I am more of a historicist with my writing and scriptural time lines, than you'll ever be.

No, the prophecy says the 490 years are "cut off" from the 2300 years and designate that portion of the 2300 years as pertaining only to the Jews and Jerusalem.

The two prophecies are intrinsically tied together for the three reasons I gave you, and therefore both begin at Artaxerxes' 457 B.C. decree, the only decree that is comprehensive enough to satisfy Gabriel's criteria.

 

[Earburner]

I know what the text says, which is where I got the three undeniable textual facts for why the 70 and the 2300 are intrinsically tied, making the 2300 days to be as much a literal 2300 years as the 70 Weeks are 490 years.

Whether you realize it or not, you have followed after the same error of interpretation as that of most all of "church-ianity", except that the SDAs have put a different "spin on it".

Yes, the 70 weeks are 490 years, and were "determined"/decreed upon Israel. However, the 2300 days are literal 24 hour DAYS within the 490 years, which was ALL completed by the end of the 69th week (483 years).

The 70th week of 7 years, is concerning the first appearance of Jesus. (483+7=490 years).

It was Jesus Himself who was "cut off" [crucified], "but not for Himself", in the midst of that 70th week of 7 years , whereby He was confirming the NEW Covenant to His disciples for 7 years, on both sides of His cross.
Jesus confirmed the NC for 3.5 years (1260 days) while He was mortal, and then for the remaining 3.5 years (1260 days), He continued confirming the NC, while He was BOTH Immortal and Spirit, with the early church.

There is no such thing of the 70th week being "cut off", and then attached to the futuristic end of time, whether it be with the secular world, or the religious world.
All of that misunderstanding is due to NOT understanding the "Six works of God", that HE gave Jesus to do and "Finish". Dan. 9:24.
Please see that fulfillment, in the past tense:
John 17:4,
John 19:30 (Psalm 69:21)

 

[Earburner]

No, the prophecy says the 490 years are "cut off" from the 2300 years and designate that portion of the 2300 years as pertaining only to the Jews and Jerusalem.

The two prophecies are intrinsically tied together for the three reasons I gave you, and therefore both begin at Artaxerxes' 457 B.C. decree, the only decree that is comprehensive enough to satisfy Gabriel's criteria.

Yes, I agree with you, that you understood the time of 457 BC., but in time, what are you doing with the years that you did not account for (490 minus 457=33 years)??
Jesus mortally died when He was 33 yrs. old.
I say that during those 33 years, it was the earthly "joint ministry" of both John the Baptist (6 mos.) and Jesus (3 yrs.), totalling to 3.5 yrs. (1260 days). See Zech. 4:14.

Though you may not be able to grasp this at the moment, John the Baptist and Jesus together, as a joint ministry,  WERE "the two witnesses" in Rev.

 

[Phoneman777]

Whether you realize it or not, you have followed after the same error of interpretation as that of most all of "church-ianity", except that the SDAs have put a different "spin on it".

Whether you realize it or not, you have follwed after the same Jesuit errors that most of all Christianity has. As an SDA, we don't have to spin anything.

Yes, the 70 weeks are 490 years, and were "determined"/decreed upon Israel. However, the 2300 days are literal 24 hour DAYS within the 490 years, which was ALL completed by the end of the 69th week (483 years).

They can't be literal because you can't "cut off" 490 years from 2300 literal days.

It was Jesus Himself who was "cut off" [crucified],

I'm not talking about the "karat" of verse 25 ------- I'm talking about the "chatak" in verse 24 where it says the 70 Weeks are "chatak" or "cut off".

There is no such thing of the 70th week being "cut off", and then attached to the futuristic end of time, whether it be with the secular world, or the religious world.

Gabriel didn't mean "cut off" the 70 Weeks from the 2300 Days like some silly fools cut the 70th Week off and send it down to the end of time as the "7 years of tribulation".

It means "designate" the first 490 years of the 2300 years for Jews and Jerusalem.

All of that misunderstanding is due to NOT understanding the "Six works of God", that HE gave Jesus to do and "Finish". Dan. 9:24.
Please see that fulfillment, in the past tense:
John 17:4,
John 19:30 (Psalm 69:21)

Have you read how commentators prove that the "six works of God" were fulfilled by the end of the 70 Weeks?

For instance, Jesus "finished the transgression" which refers hermeneutically to the stubborn rebellion of the Jews which refused to cooperate with God in preparing the world for the coming Savior.

He also "made and end of sins" in the lives of those who who are pardoned by His grace and empowered to obey by the same.

 

[Phoneman777]

I say that during those 33 years, it was the earthly "joint ministry" of both John the Baptist (6 mos.) and Jesus (3 yrs.), totalling to 3.5 yrs. (1260 days). See Zech. 4:14.

Though you may not be able to grasp this at the moment, John the Baptist and Jesus together, as a joint ministry,  WERE "the two witnesses" in Rev.

The "two witnesses" are "the sons of oil". What is it that the "oil of the Spirit" gives life to? That which is "given by inspiration of God" - the Word of God.

A comparison of Revelation 11 and Zechariah 4 shows that these "Two Witnesses" are the OT and NT. It's referring to the French Revolution.

 

[Earburner]

The "two witnesses" are "the sons of oil". What is it that the "oil of the Spirit" gives life to? That which is "given by inspiration of God" - the Word of God.

A comparison of Revelation 11 and Zechariah 4 shows that these "Two Witnesses" are the OT and NT. It's referring to the French Revolution.

Simply put, under the OC, "oil" was used for "anointing" the things of the Temple, as well as people who were chosen by God for His use and service, showing the anointing by "oil" to be that which was made holy (set apart).

However, they at that time (of Israel) never had the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit of God, until AFTER the shedding of Christ's blood, for the removal of sin, and not just temporary forgiveness for one year.

Today, under the NC, "oil" is symbolized as being the literal Holy Spirit of God.
In the NT scriptures, to be "anointed" by God, is to have the Holy Spirit of God, aka the Spirit of Christ, permanently, and therefore, for all who do, they are the True servants and people of God, no matter what their church affiliation is, if any!
Rom. 8:8-9.

By the way, did you know that the only two people in all the world who ever had the permanency of God's Holy Spirit at birth, was John the Baptist and Jesus.
John received Him upon birth, and Jesus was conceived by Him.

 

[Earburner]

Whether you realize it or not, you have follwed after the same Jesuit errors that most of all Christianity has. As an SDA, we don't have to spin anything.

They can't be literal because you can't "cut off" 490 years from 2300 literal days.

I'm not talking about the "karat" of verse 25 ------- I'm talking about the "chatak" in verse 24 where it says the 70 Weeks are "chatak" or "cut off".

Gabriel didn't mean "cut off" the 70 Weeks from the 2300 Days like some silly fools cut the 70th Week off and send it down to the end of time as the "7 years of tribulation".

It means "designate" the first 490 years of the 2300 years for Jews and Jerusalem.

Actually, the Hebrew word selection for the context of Dan. 9:24-27 is "decreed" and NOT "cut off" or "designate".
H2850
חתך
châthak
khaw-thak'
A primitive root; properly to cut off, that is, (figuratively) to decree
KJV Usage: determine.

Excluding "the wisdom of men", I am very certain that I completely understand the 7 years (3.5+3.5) of the Two Witnesses, being the joint ministry of John (6 mos.) and Jesus confirming the New covenant (3.0 years during His mortal life, and then 3.5 more years during His Resurrected Life, all totalling to 7.0 years.

God the Father gave witness through John of who Jesus was: "The Lamb OF God, who taketh away the sin of the world".

Jesus Himself gave witness of who God the Father was, by allowing HIM to speak and do the good works of God through Him.

 

[Phoneman777]

Actually, the Hebrew word selection for the context of Dan. 9:24-27 is "decreed" and NOT "cut off" or "designate".

The context of the words "for thy people and for thy holy city" demands "cut off" aka "cut off a portion which will pertain only to Jews and Jerusalem" refers to cutting off the 490 from the 2300.