Which Millennium is better? Amil's or Premil's proposed millennium?

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let's do some comparing of both. If you think of something else to add, be sure to mention it and I will add it to the OP unless it causes the OP to increase in size to the point it makes it too lengthy to add it to it. The OP is already somewhat lengthy to begin with. Or if you see something that doesn't fit your proposed Millennium, be sure to mention it and I will remove it from the OP if you convincingly argue why it doesn't.

Amil's proposed Millennium first.

People can be saved throughout their proposed Millennium.

People are still being deceived throughout their proposed Millennium. Billions and billions of people, the fact not everyone manages to get saved during their proposed Millennium.

Righteousness is not dwelling throughout the earth during their proposed Millennium. There are crooked courts, crooked judges, crooked lawyers, so on and so on, throughout their proposed Millennium

satan, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour(1 Peter 5:8), during their proposed Millennium.

satan can fill one's heart to lie to the Holy Ghost(Acts 5:3), during their proposed Millennium

satan can take advantage of some since some can be ignorant of his devices(2 Corinthians 2:11), during their proposed Millennium.

satan is transformed into an angel of light(2 Corinthians 11:14), during their proposed Millennium.

satan can hinder someone(1 Thessalonians 2:18), during their proposed Millennium.

That's enough for now. Next Premil's proposed Millennium.

Not one single person on the entire planet is still being deceived during their proposed Millennium. And the reasons why are obvious. There is no one to deceive them during the Millennium. Christ and His bodily immortal saints are ruling and governing the entire planet. satan is the pit, the beast and false prophet are in the LOF.

Righteousness is dwelling throughout the earth during their proposed Millennium. There are no more crooked courts, no more crooked judges, no more crooked lawyers, so on and so on, throughout their proposed Millennium

satan, as a roaring lion, is not walking about, seeking whom he may devour, during their proposed Millennium. satan is actually in the pit during their proposed Millennium.

satan can't fill anyone's heart to lie to the Holy Ghost during their proposed Millennium. satan is actually in the pit during their proposed Millennium.

satan can't take advantage of anyone since no one can be ignorant of his devices, during their proposed Millennium, the fact satan is actually in the pit during their proposed Millennium.

satan is not transformed into an angel of light, during their proposed Millennium. satan is actually in the pit during their proposed Millennium.

satan can't hinder anyone, during their proposed Millennium. satan is actually in the pit during their proposed Millennium.

Thus far, based on the above, which Millennium seems to be the better one? The only thing I can see being better about Amil's proposed Millennium is that people can be saved during it. Is that alone enough to make their Millennium the better one? Maybe, maybe not.

LOL. Is this how we are supposed to determine the truth about Revelation 20? If you think premil makes more sense by looking at the thousand years from the perspective you're describing, then do you also think premil makes more sense when you consider that you believe that a number of people "as the sand of the sea" will decide to rebel despite having just experienced a thousand years of peace on the earth without Satan's influence? Somehow, Satan will be able to convince a number of people "as the sand of the sea" in that short amount of time that his way is better than the thousand years of peace on earth with Jesus Christ Himself on the earth in all His glory that they just experienced?

We have to factor in that Not once saved always saved, that this is Biblical, regardless that some deny it. How many might fall away over all? Millions, billions perhaps? If so, their proposed Millennium didn't manage to keep everyone still saved in the end, obviously. If Amil views Premil's proposed Millennium as a failure based on satan's little season that follows, why don't they view their proposed Millennium equally as a failure?

It talks about a number of people "as the sand of the sea" opposing "the camp of the saints" after the thousand years ends. Amil would not try to say that all of those people fell away from the faith. Instead, we would say that includes all unbelievers who oppose the church during Satan's little season. It's your premil view that has all of those who number "as the sand of the sea" having fallen away from the faith and rebelled against Christ. Does it really make sense to think that many people would fall away after having just experienced a thousand years of bliss on the earth with Jesus Christ Himself in all His glory being with them? Doesn't it make more sense than a majority of them would want to continue experiencing that bliss instead of rebelling and turning away from it?

Could the real reason be that most of them likely deny that NOSAS is Biblical? Thus no failure whatsoever since no one saved ever loses their salvation, right? Only if NOSAS is not Biblical, though. Except it is Biblical, 100% Biblical.

NOSAS has nothing to do with this. You keep trying to make it about that, but no one ever agrees with you on that. You're in your own world with trying to make the amil vs. premil debate relate directly to the OSAS vs. NOSAS debate. It's ridiculous.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

How do you have an Amil millennium? Amil means no millennium.

Amil does not deny that the thousand years is an actual period of time with a beginning and ending if that's what you mean. It denies that it's a literal one thousand years and is instead symbolic of the New Testament era. The word "thousand" is used figuratively elsewhere in scripture such as when it refers to God's promises being given to "a thousand generations" (Deut 7:9) or when it refers to the cattle on "a thousand hills" (Psalm 50:10) that belong to the Lord.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Verse 9 uses a future tense verb indicating that the punishment of everlasting destruction does not happen at the second coming.

It is future tense as of the time it was written, not future tense as of the time of the second coming. If you read it without bias, it's clearly something that will happen at the second coming. And, it lines up with Matthew 25:31-46 which also has unbelievers experiencing "everlasting punishment" at the time of His second coming and not 1,000+ years later.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In the event Amil is the correct position, regardless, only one thing makes sense to me in that case. That being the following. Except I have never noted any Amils making this connection.

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

These in verse 8 are meaning the following I have underlined in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 below.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Per Amil wouldn't all of the following I have underlined basically be involving satan's little season after the thousand years expire?

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God
2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed , whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders

I have said that I believe that passage relates to Satan's little season many times, as have other amils.

If yes, then where do Amils think these that fall away(2 Thessalonians 2:3) are identified during satan's little season if not Revelation 20:8?

They are among those described in Revelation 20:8, but it isn't just them being described there. The ones described there number "as the sand of the sea". That certainly includes more than just those who fall away during that time. It includes all unbelievers who oppose Christ and His church throughout the world.

Who else can these that fall away be meaning in Revelation 20:7-9, assuming Amil is the correct position? Couldn't possibly be meaning the camp of the saints, right?

Also, if this--except there come a falling away first--doesn't undeniably prove that NOSAS is Biblical, then nothing does. This is the more clearer proof. After all, it is nonsensical to fall away from something you were never part of to begin with. Obviously then, you can only fall away from something you had part in. What did they have part in intially if not salvation? Anyone that can still deny that NOSAS is Biblical in light of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 are being false teachers purposesly rather than out of ignorance. They know exactly what they are doing.

They are teaching NOSAS is not Biblical though 2 Thessalonians 2:3 undeniably proves otherwise. Very arrogant of them, as if they will never have to answer for this, as if God is just going to give them a free pass even though this false doctrine that only OSAS is Biblical, NOSAS isn't, literally sends some to hell, because instead of repenting after beginning to fall away, they think they have nothing to repent of since no one saved can lose their salvation no matter what to begin with.

If you want to debate OSAS vs. NOSAS, start a separate thread about that. It has nothing to do with Revelation 20:8.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL, "probably".

That happens DURING Amill's Millennium when Jesus and the saints are supposedly ruling the world!

Do you believe that God, since the beginning of time, has never ruled the world? Or, at least, never ruled the world at any time after Adam and Eve sinned?

Not so in Premill's Mill, where none perish or are lost or even get deceived by satan. Any rebellion happens after the Mill ends, not during it! Amill has rebellion DURING and after their MIll but they don't like to admit that fact.

LOL. I fully acknowledge (nothing to "admit") that fact. So what? The thousand years isn't about removing all rebellion from the earth, it's about giving everyone in the world the opportunity to be saved without Satan any longer holding people in slavery to the fear of death (Hebrews 2:14-15) without having any hope of eternal life.

Premill's Millennium is clearly the better, safer, more Christian version of the Mill, hands down. It is also the only one that matches scripture.

LOL. Wrong. And, most importantly, you've done absolutely nothing to back that up with scripture. Your understanding of the thousand years is completely flawed and that's the only reason you think your version of it is better. If you were correct about the intended purpose of the thousand years then you would be correct in what you said here, but you're not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your Premil millennium is a figment of your imagination. It will never happen. It is delusional.

• You have zero corroboration for all the main tenets you foist upon Revelation 20.
• Your opinion contradicts numerous climactic Scriptures that shows the second coming as the end. Although, that means little to you. Words mean nothing to you. You redefine them to suit what you have been taught.
• You invent 2 last days periods and 2 NHNEs because you enjoy no corroboration for your invented future millennium. Talk about manipulating Scripture.

The reality is, you are in love with a doctrine not the biblical text. You shamefacedly continue to promote this error despite it being refuted repeatedly for years. You are without excuse.

Agree. Also, I'm still waiting for a premil to explain to me the logistics of a number of people "as the sand of the sea" from around the world ("the four quarters of the earth") all traveling to Jerusalem at the same time to attack the people in the earthly city of Jerusalem. How could that possibly even happen? No one ever wants to address that. It makes no sense whatsoever to think that ever would, or even could, happen. I guess that would explain why they never want to address it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You must have reading comprehension or something. Nowhere did I say I reject OSAS. I'm not the one rejecting anything, you are. You are rejecting that NOSAS is also Biblical.

They can't both be biblical. How are you coming up with that nonsense? That's like saying premil and amil are both biblical.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LOL. What a lame analogy. But you didn't come up with it though, therefore, you shouldn't take it personally. IOW, this is not the first time I have heard an Amil use that same exact analogy. Must be one long chain satan is bound with if he can devour someone in the USA and also devour someone in China, for instance.

If a dog was tied to a chain in it's yard in Dallas, Tx, it certainly wouldn't be able to bite anyone in China, or even anyone outside the yard it is tied in.

That dog on a chain analogy doesn't cut it because satan can roam the entire planet, a dog tied to a chain in it's yard can't roam the entire planet but can only roam the yard it is tied up in.

Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

It isn't that the chain restricts Satan's movement. That's not how Amils look at it. It restricts his ability to "deceive the nations". Premils and amils disagree on what that means exactly, but it has nothing to do with his ability to move around, as you imagine. It has to do with his ability to prevent God's word, the gospel, from spreading throughout the world and giving people the hope of eternal life which the people of the world before Christ came (people in OT times) did not have (Ephesians 2:11-13).

So, from the amil perspective, the dog on a chain analogy is quite valid based on our understanding of Satan's binding. It's not valid from the premil perspective, but why should amils care about that? You're always trying to force amils to look at things from your premil perspective instead of you trying to look at things from our perspective.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And they always leave out the whole locked in the pit part and focus only on the chain. They also rarely admit they believe the pit is the whole world, that Jesus and the saints all are born into the pit with satan which makes no sense.

This is completely false. Amils do not say that the bottomless pit "is the whole world". You're the one who takes the pit literally, not amils. You obviously don't even understand amil, so you should never comment on it because it just makes you look ignorant. I know I don't try to comment on things I don't understand, so just let amils talk about what we believe instead of constantly misrepresenting what we believe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And if the pit is the entire world, what is it supposed to mean when satan is no longer in the pit? That he is no longer in the world? But if he still in the world the logic per this scenario would have to be that he is still bound in the pit, right? Per Amil logic I guess we are all bound in this pit with satan until we die or that we are able to leave this planet entirely and live on another planet instead?

Why did you assume that he had any idea of what he was talking about while he was misrepresenting what amils believe? Do you just take everything he says as truth? Have you ever once seen an amil equate the bottomless pit with the whole world. I know you haven't. So, why would you think he was correctly representing amil by saying that?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Can you explain the following if a real place is not meant by the pit?

Luke 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep(abussos).

This verse uses the very same Greek word that the book of Revelation uses for the pit, abussos.

What is it about the deep that they were afraid of and dreaded being cast into if it was not a literal place? They didn't seem to fear being cast into the nearby lake, but feared being cast into the deep. There has to be a logical reason why. That logical reason being that the deep was a literal place, would be my guess. Do some of you seriously think that spirits, demons, etc, can't be imprisoned? Have you ever ventured into the realm they exist in to know for a fact they can't be imprisoned in that realm?

Is it not possible for a word to be used literally in one verse and symbolically in another? For example, Revelation makes several mentions of Babylon. In the Old Testament, Babylon referred to an ancient city that ruled over the world long ago. Does that mean the Babylon of Revelation is that same ancient earthly city referenced in the Old Testament that no longer exists?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you mean that long chain that is long as the world is round or maybe even longer? If satan can walk about and devour someone in the USA and also walk about and devour someone in Japan, I would say that's a pretty long chain tied to that dog.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

After all, it's pretty silly to think that satan can only walk about in someone's backyard in the USA, for example, but can't also walk about in someone's backyard in Japan, seeking whom he may devour. Which already doesn't make sense, since he can walk around in more than just someone's backyard.

The point is, 1 Peter 5:8 proves that satan is not bound since he is free to roam any place on this planet he desires to roam and then devour someone. He is not like a dog tied to a chain in someone's backyard, where as long as you stay away from that back yard the dog can't reach and attack you. satan is not limited in that manner if he can walk about and devour someone in the USA and can also do the same to someone in Japan, or Russia, or China, or any place on the planet.

All you ever do is prove that Amil can't be true from the Premil perspective. Well, no kidding. That really proves nothing, though. Amils do not claim that the binding of Satan is a literal binding that restricts his movement, so proving that his movement isn't restricted does NOTHING to disprove Amil.

You waste so much time proving something that is obvious and does nothing to disprove Amil. It only proves that Amil would be false if Satan's binding related to the restriction of his movement, but Amil does not claim that his binding restricts his movement. It restricts him from doing certain things in NT times that he was able to do unrestrained in OT times. Such as having the power of death and keeping a vast majority of the world in slavery to the fear of death without any hope of eternal life. Christ's death took that power away from Satan (Hebrews 2:14-15) and brought hope to a world that previously had none (Ephesians 2:11-13).

 

[grafted branch]

We have overcome that spirit of wickedness. Satan is not an infinite being like God is, so how does he indwell all the unbelievers in the world at the same time? It is because he is NOT a being, he is a spirit, the spirit to disobey. It is this spirit that was defeated and bound by Christ.

Mark 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

In Mark 4:13-20 the parable of the sower is explained and in verse 15 “Satan” really has to be interpreted as our Adamic nature or else Satan would be omnipresent if he was a single entity. I think you would agree with this.

However there are other verses such as Romans 16:20 where that concept doesn’t seem to work if Satan is bound at the cross.

Romans 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

If Satan (Adamic nature) was bound at the cross then how could Paul claim in 57AD that Satan would be bruised or shattered, broken in pieces by the God of peace, shortly in the future when Satan was already bound at the cross for the elect?

Keep in mind that Paul claims they have mutual faith in Romans 1:12.

Do you see Satan being bound as one thing and Satan being bruised as an additional thing that can happen to the elect?

 

[WPM]

Agree. Also, I'm still waiting for a premil to explain to me the logistics of a number of people "as the sand of the sea" from around the world ("the four quarters of the earth") all traveling to Jerusalem at the same time to attack the people in the earthly city of Jerusalem. How could that possibly even happen? No one ever wants to address that. It makes no sense whatsoever to think that ever would, or even could, happen. I guess that would explain why they never want to address it.

Exactly. The doctrine is a fabricated illusion. It totally negates their imaginary portrayal.

 

[Davidpt]

The debate is over, when one understands that for all who shall (supposedly) live in their mortality, after Jesus returns in His Glorious Immortality, as King of kings, they do NOT have a "sin bearer".

Heb. 9[28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

In KJV-2 Thes. 1:7-10, please notice the word "WHEN" that is written two times within those verses, then ask yourself: "when is when"??
Hopefully, as the Holy Spirit guides you, and not "the wisdom of men" through church-ianity, you will understand that in THAT DAY, it will be a simultaneous event.
See also Luke 17:28-30 and all of 2 Peter 3.

In your mind only, is the debate already over.

In my view, assuming there is a future millennium, it won't be about salvation since everyone that it to be eternally saved will already be so before the millennium begins. What then is the point of a future millennium, right? One point can maybe be that God fully gets His way for 1000 years. That He has everyone on the planet worshiping Him, and not just some like today where only the saved worship Him.

What do we do with the following which is apparently involving the final days of this age?

Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.


Some need to quit ignoring passages like this. The text says--for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. How is that fulfilled if we are in the end of this age per these judgments, yet the text is saying all nations shall come and worship before thee? The issue is not with any nations already doing that, coming and worshiping before Him, the issue is with the nations that are not doing that. When do they start doing that? During the future millennium, obviously.

This in Revelation 15:4---for all nations shall come and worship before thee--sounds like this in Zechariah 14:16 to me---And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Not to mention, the following.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

If that is not involving any of the judgments pertaining to what Revelation 15:4 indicated, then I give up, Zechariah 14 shouldn't even be in the Bible because it's supposedly not connected to anything in the NT. We have to remember, in spite of these judgments there has to be people still remaining to fulfill this part recorded in Revelation 15:4---for all nations shall come and worship before thee.

Therefore, Revelation 15:4 and Zechariah 14:16 agree with each other, not contradict each other.

 

[Davidpt]

Agree. Also, I'm still waiting for a premil to explain to me the logistics of a number of people "as the sand of the sea" from around the world ("the four quarters of the earth") all traveling to Jerusalem at the same time to attack the people in the earthly city of Jerusalem. How could that possibly even happen? No one ever wants to address that. It makes no sense whatsoever to think that ever would, or even could, happen. I guess that would explain why they never want to address it.

There is such a thing as delegates that can do that for each nation involved. But let's just pretend it is literally meaning every single person on the planet, that way the absurdity of such a thing as that alone disproves Premil. When is the last time you ever heard of, for example, the USA sending every single American to another country to discuss things with them rather than sending a few delegates that represent the USA in order to discuss things with them?

IOW, it is not a valid argument to argue that everyone on the planet must go to Jerusalem from year to year, assuming a future millennium. Therefore, a future millennium is impossible based on this alone. That is a straw man argument, just like your argument that if some of Zechariah 14 is meaning post the 2nd coming, that means it involves animal sacrificing in that case, therefore, none of it can be meaning post the 2nd coming. Except some of us disagree that there will be any animal sacrificing going on during a future millennium. IOW, you are purposely misrepresenting our view by insisting animal sacrificing takes place in the future millennium if any of Zechariah 14 is meaning post the 2nd coming even after some of us already plainly told you we don't interpret it to mean that.

 

[TribulationSigns]

In your mind only, is the debate already over.

In my view, assuming there is a future millennium, it won't be about salvation since everyone that it to be eternally saved will already be so before the millennium begins. What then is the point of a future millennium, right?

There will not be a future millennial kingdom! Haven't you read the Scripture we have quoted many times? Satan will not be released until after all the Elect are secured, which is the purpose of the millennial kingdom since the Cross. This is not a future event! Once all the Elect are secured, there will be no need for a future 1,000-year millennial kingdom, as we will transition directly into the Eternal Kingdom when Christ returns.

 

[WPM]

There is such a thing as delegates that can do that for each nation involved. But let's just pretend it is literally meaning every single person on the planet, that way the absurdity of such a thing as that alone disproves Premil. When is the last time you ever heard of, for example, the USA sending every single American to another country to discuss things with them rather than sending a few delegates that represent the USA in order to discuss things with them?

IOW, it is not a valid argument to argue that everyone on the planet must go to Jerusalem from year to year, assuming a future millennium. Therefore, a future millennium is impossible based on this alone. That is a straw man argument, just like your argument that if some of Zechariah 14 is meaning post the 2nd coming, that means it involves animal sacrificing in that case, therefore, none of it can be meaning post the 2nd coming. Except some of us disagree that there will be any animal sacrificing going on during a future millennium. IOW, you are purposely misrepresenting our view by insisting animal sacrificing takes place in the future millennium if any of Zechariah 14 is meaning post the 2nd coming even after some of us already plainly told you we don't interpret it to mean that.

Could you please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20? I see no likeness.

 

[Davidpt]

There will not be a future millennial kingdom! Haven't you read the Scripture we have quoted many times? Satan will not be released until after all the Elect are secured, which is the purpose of the millennial kingdom since the Cross. This is not a future event! Once all the Elect are secured, there will be no need for a future 1,000-year millennial kingdom, as we will transition directly into the Eternal Kingdom when Christ returns.

If you insist on having it your way, for starters then, convincingly explain Revelation 15:4 and show how that fits Amil not Premil. In particular, what I have underlined below. Keeping in mind that these judgments are not against any nations already doing that, these judgments are against any nations not doing that, and that the text says-- for all nations shall come and worship before thee. And here it is almost 2025 AD and have I yet to see this fulfilled. Before it can be fulfilled, these judgments in question have to be fulfilled first. Except after these judgments, Amil has everyone in the LOF except for the saved. How then does Amil propose this part gets fulfilled following these judgments---for all nations shall come and worship before thee?

Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest

We need to keep in mind here, one cant divorce---for all nations shall come and worship before thee--from this part---for thy judgments are made manifest. The text doesn't say--- for all nations shall come and worship before thee. The text says---Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest

 

[Davidpt]

Is it not possible for a word to be used literally in one verse and symbolically in another? For example, Revelation makes several mentions of Babylon. In the Old Testament, Babylon referred to an ancient city that ruled over the world long ago. Does that mean the Babylon of Revelation is that same ancient earthly city referenced in the Old Testament that no longer exists?

Sure, that is possible. But is that the case in this case? Maybe, maybe not. What about these locusts in Revelation 9? Aren't they in the same pit satan finds himself cast into? Why is it that it is as if they don't even exist while in the pit? What explains that? Until they are released from the pit they are not even relevant in the meantime. It comes across as if they are literally confined some place real where they can't esacpe until the pit is opened first. In the meantime they are a zero problem in the earth, while satan is a continual problem in the earth. That seems strange to me if both are supposed to be in this same pit at the same time, why these locusts aren't a problem but satan still is?