The Root question of Amillenial vs Premillenial

[Rich R]

If you cannot prove what you allege why would anyone believe anything you say?

You shouldn't believer anything I say. In fact, it's a good idea not to believe what anybody says (including the ECFs) about the Bible. Sure, see what they have to say, but don't just blindly believe every word. The only 100% reliable source of truth are the scriptures. Whatever anybody says should be verified with the source document.

 

[rwb]

You shouldn't believer anything I say. In fact, it's a good idea not to believe what anybody says (including the ECFs) about the Bible. Sure, see what they have to say, but don't just blindly believe every word. The only 100% reliable source of truth are the scriptures. Whatever anybody says should be verified with the source document.

I think you should embrace your own good advice, Rich! Because it is you who continues to give opinions about what you think or what you have been taught to believe as biblical truths! I don't do this, especially if I find what I believe is truth forces contradictions into the Word of God. If I accepted what you have brought to the forum, I would be compelled to throw away my Bible! What good is this Book if it contains contradictions? You need to think about what you have been taught, because I've shown you how your doctrine cannot be harmonized with the Word of God.

 

[Zao is life]

I think you should embrace your own good advice, Rich! Because it is you who continues to give opinions about what you think or what you have been taught to believe as biblical truths! I don't do this

Oh yes you do - A LOT. In fact, you do it all the time. And almost every single one of your posts in these forums is an example.

 

[rwb]

Oh yes you do - A LOT. In fact, you do it all the time. And almost every single one of your posts in these forums is an example.

Now you've gone and hurt my feelings! You're a bad girl???

 

[Zao is life]

You shouldn't believer anything I say. In fact, it's a good idea not to believe what anybody says (including the ECFs) about the Bible. Sure, see what they have to say, but don't just blindly believe every word. The only 100% reliable source of truth are the scriptures. Whatever anybody says should be verified with the source document.

The M.O of the team on the opposite side of the field has been very obvious again in all the topics and responses to you by those who disagree with you:

1. Team up against the opponent, and continue to work as a team.
2. Falsely accuse him of saying things he did not say.
3. Repeatedly tell him he does not know what he's talking about regarding things he did in fact say.
4. Begin with mild ad hominem arrogance and rudeness against him, and steadily increase it until hopefully he eventually lashes back - then tell him how bad HE is.

Sometimes I do suspect that some are here just to troll. Just to attempt to cause any topic or discussion they disagree with to unravel into a degraded unedifying mess. The tactics used are always very subtle but always the same.

Maybe they see the Word of God as a football to be sported with. Their M.O certainly treats God's Word that way.

 

[Zao is life]

Now you've gone and hurt my feelings! You're a bad girl???

I won't correct you. I think you know perfectly well you're talking to a man - an adult and perfectly normal man.

It's just makes me me wonder even more about you.

 

[Rich R]

The M.O of the team on the opposite side of the field has been very obvious again in all the topics and responses to you by those who disagree with you:

1. Team up against the opponent, and continue to work as a team.
2. Falsely accuse him of saying things he did not say.
3. Repeatedly tell him he does not know what he's talking about regarding things he did in fact say.
4. Begin with mild ad hominem arrogance and rudeness against him, and steadily increase it until hopefully he eventually lashes back - then tell him how bad HE is.

Sometimes I do suspect that some are here just to troll. Just to attempt to cause any topic or discussion they disagree with to unravel into a degraded unedifying mess. The tactics used are always very subtle but always the same.

Maybe they see the Word of God as a football to be sported with. Their M.O certainly treats God's Word that way.

I think you are right, especially about the trolls. But on the other hand, they may be seekers of truth. I don't know. But if they are I figure it can't hurt to give them ideas they may never have entertained. I probably should have disengaged a while ago, but like I told someone here it wasn't wasted. I had to dig into things to see if maybe, perhaps, some things they said might be true. In the process of doing that, I learned a few things I hadn't seen before. Not necessarily what they said, but what the scriptures said. There's something in Psalms about iron sharpening iron.

Anyway, thanks for your input.

 

[Zao is life]

@Rich R “God is not the God of the dead but of the living [záō]!" -- Matthew 22:32b

IMO anyone who quotes that scripture in support of his own false doctrine regarding spiritual "bodies" in heaven only continues showing that he has a lack of understanding of scripture.

During the earthly ministry of Jesus, the Sadducees approached Him once to challenge Him about the resurrection of the body from the dead (which they did not believe in).

By their reaction to Jesus' reply to them, the Sadducees made it clear that they understood that He had refuted any argument they may have had about the resurrection of the body from the dead by telling them that of necessity what God told Moses about being "the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob" meant that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would rise again from the dead (and hence be seen alive in their bodies) because the ever-living God is not the God of the dead, but of the living [záō].

The context of what Jesus said is the Sadducees' challenge regarding the resurrection of the body from the dead.

The Sadducees did not try to argue the point with Him anymore after that.

When Jesus' friend, Lazarus, had died, his sisters called for Jesus, and when Jesus arrived, Lazarus' sister Martha said about her brother:

-- "I know that he shall rise from the dead [anístēmi] in the resurrection [anástasis] at the last day.

Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection [anástasis] and the the Life [zōḗ]! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live [zōḗ]. And whoever is alive [zōḗ] AND believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" -- John 11:24-26.

In the long list of verses where they appear, the words zoe and zao are always linked to living in the human body in the New Testament - without exception.

 

[Zao is life]

I think you are right, especially about the trolls. But on the other hand, they may be seekers of truth. I don't know. But if they are I figure it can't hurt to give them ideas they may never have entertained. I probably should have disengaged a while ago, but like I told someone here it wasn't wasted. I had to dig into things to see if maybe, perhaps, some things they said might be true. In the process of doing that, I learned a few things I hadn't seen before. Not necessarily what they said, but what the scriptures said. There's something in Psalms about iron sharpening iron.

Anyway, thanks for your input.

I'm also glad you did not disengage because it reminded me of a thought I had regarding the real meaning of "heavenly promised land" in Hebrews, which did not take root at the time, probably because I got side-tracked. So thanks.

We may not agree on all points, but at least we know what Christians biblical discussion is (or should be and could be) when it comes to differences in understanding of a Word which is not our own but which we received by grace alone.

I never managed to read this whole thread. Time.

 

[Rich R]

I'm interested in what you say about this because I believe it was in the OT - from the time of God's very first promise to Abraham - but it was a mystery to the Jews because no way could they understand it before Christ came.

Genesis 17:3-6
"And Abram fell on his face. And God talked with him, saying, As for Me, behold! My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of a multitude of gôyim (Gentiles/Gentile nations).

Neither shall your name any more be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham. For I have made you a father of a multitude of gôyim (Gentiles/Gentile nations).

And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, greatly so, and I will make gôyim (Gentiles/Gentile nations) of you, and kings shall come out of you."

In God's very first promise to Abraham, He used the word gôy (plural gôyim) three times, i.e He was not speaking of only one ethnic nation.

Therefore I believe that God's purpose for choosing Abraham was to make him the father of many (Gentile) nations, and through Abraham's seed (Jesus), to bless all families of the earth - and this could not have come to pass if Abraham did not have a son called Isaac, who did not have a son called Jacob/Israel, who did not become the father of twelve sons,

one of whom (Judah) became the patriarch of the tribe of Judah (the Jews),

through whom God chose to bring the seed promised to Abraham (Jesus) into the world,

through Whom all the families of the earth are blessed (Jesus was born a Jew).

So Abraham became the father of a multitude of Gentile nations, just as God had promised.

Besides this:

"Ephraim shall be broken so that it shall not be a people." -- Isaiah 7:8

Circa 722 B.C - over 700 years before the time of Christ - when God judged the house of Israel (a.k.a Ephraim) for its idolatry (at the hand of the Assyrian king), the overwhelming majority of the ten northern tribes of Israel were exiled, but God continued, at the time, to have mercy upon the southern kingdom, a.k.a the house of Judah.

From circa 722 BC (following their exile after the invasion of the Northern kingdom by the king of Assyria, which resulted in the ending of the Northern kingdom), the house of Israel became scattered among the nations.

It ceased being a nation before God; and the descendants of the 10 tribes of the house of Israel intermarried with the Gentiles in the nations after their dispersion, to the point where over time "the lost ten tribes" are untraceable today.

The New Covenant was promised to the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Hosea and Ezekiel and other prophets mentioned them being reunited into one nation under the Son of David.

So I believe the mystery was in the OT - from the time of God's very first promise to Abraham - but it was a mystery to God's elect remnant among each generation of the elect nation, as well as to the rest of the Jews because no way could any of them understand it before Christ came.

There is a hint of this in Romans 11 in the difference between the "you" and "they" not receiving mercy.​

As you say, it was certainly no secret that all the nations would be blessed in Abraham, but there is something that was kept secret until God revealed it to Paul.

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

​

First of all, the word "mystery" in the KJV and other English translations is the Greek work "musterion" which Strong's Concordance defines as: "a secret or 'mystery'"

Abbott-Smith's Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament says: "that which is known to the μύστης (initiated), a mystery or secret doctrine"

I think secret better communicates. A mystery may never be known, but a secret can be known once revealed. Romans 16:25 says that it was kept secret since the world began and wasn't known until it was revealed by Paul (there are other verses that say so also, which I'll get to).

The phrase, "my (Paul) Gospel" is interesting. Usually we think of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John's gospel, but here we see that Paul had a gospel, or some good news. Paul's gospel was very different than the other four. For one thing, the four gospels all deal with Israel. Jesus said as much a few times. In Matthew 15 there is an account of a Canaanite woman who wanted Jesus to cast devil spirits out of her daughter. Jesus said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." In Matthew 10 Jesus told his apostles to go to the lost sheep of the tribe of Israel.

Paul described the state of Gentiles during the entire OT including the four gospels.

Eph 2:11-12,

11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;​

​

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:​

​

That must of hurt! But things did get better:

Eph 3:3-6,

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,​

​

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)​

​

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;​

​

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:​

​

Abraham did not know that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, of the same body, and partakers of the promise. He knew they'd be blessed in Israel because they could ride on their coat tails so to speak, but that everyone in the whole world could be God's chosen people was not known. The devil had a hard enough time keeping a few people (Israel) from getting God's promises, but now he had to deal with the whole world.

Along those lines, there is another interesting verse about the devil and the secret.

1 Cor 2:7-8,

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:​

​

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

Now I know their is some debate on who are the princes of the world are. I don't want to get into that unless you really want me to. For now, suffice it to say the there is little doubt the Jew of the first century would have understood it to mean a spiritual being, in this case, the devil. While the upshot of the mystery would have totally neutered the power of the devil, it wouldn't have meant much to earthly rulers. They probably would have crucified him anyway, whereas the devil most definitely would not have killed him. You'll see why I say that in a minute.

Col 1:25-27,

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;​

​

26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:​

​

27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

Again, from verse 26, you can see that the mystery was kept secret until it was revealed to Paul. The "now" is when Paul was alive. Prior to the "now" of Paul's time nobody knew the mystery. But real kicker, and the reason the devil would not have killed Jesus had he know the mystery is in verse 27, namely that it is Christ in each and every born again believer. The devil had a hard enough time dealing with Jesus. But Jesus could only be in one place at a time doing one part of God's will. Now wherever their is a Christian, their is Jesus. In the Gospels Jesus said he'd be wherever there was two people. But that was before Pentecost. Now it only take one born again believer, filled with all the fullness of God (Eph 3:9) to destroy the works of the devil! Ha, take that Satan, you old bird!

Of course, if the devil could keep Christians from knowing the secret, it's minimize the effects and he'd have more power. That's why the mystery is so important for all Christians to know.

 

[rwb]

I won't correct you. I think you know perfectly well you're talking to a man - an adult and perfectly normal man.

It's just makes me me wonder even more about you.

I couldn't resist! You tend to be rather emotional in discussions, irrational seemingly feminine at times. Sorry didn't mean to challenge your manhood!

 

[Rich R]

@Rich R “God is not the God of the dead but of the living [záō]!" -- Matthew 22:32b

IMO anyone who quotes that scripture in support of his own false doctrine regarding spiritual "bodies" in heaven only continues showing that he has a lack of understanding of scripture.

During the earthly ministry of Jesus, the Sadducees approached Him once to challenge Him about the resurrection of the body from the dead (which they did not believe in).

By their reaction to Jesus' reply to them, the Sadducees made it clear that they understood that He had refuted any argument they may have had about the resurrection of the body from the dead by telling them that of necessity what God told Moses about being "the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob" meant that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would rise again from the dead (and hence be seen alive in their bodies) because the ever-living God is not the God of the dead, but of the living [záō].

The context of what Jesus said is the Sadducees' challenge regarding the resurrection of the body from the dead.

The Sadducees did not try to argue the point with Him anymore after that.

When Jesus' friend, Lazarus, had died, his sisters called for Jesus, and when Jesus arrived, Lazarus' sister Martha said about her brother:

-- "I know that he shall rise from the dead [anístēmi] in the resurrection [anástasis] at the last day.

Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection [anástasis] and the the Life [zōḗ]! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live [zōḗ]. And whoever is alive [zōḗ] AND believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" -- John 11:24-26.

In the long list of verses where they appear, the words zoe and zao are always linked to living in the human body in the New Testament - without exception.

Good stuf. I nevere saw that about zoe/zao.

I just read somewhere else about why Jesus said, "God is not the God of the dead..." which said what you said. Considering all the scriptures that say dead people are dead and will remain so until Jesus returns, that makes way more sense.

The dead not really being dead doctrine has a long history. It began with Egypt, adopted by the Greeks, and eventually and unfortunately by the orthodox church. What particularly gets me is when I hear a Pasor or Priest say something like, "God wanted another flower in heaven so He took little 2 month old Johnie." What's the difference between that and sayig, "God murdered little 2 month old Johnie becasue He had an empty flower vase!" No wonder so many loath Chrisianity and want nothing to do with God.

 

[WPM]

@Rich R “God is not the God of the dead but of the living [záō]!" -- Matthew 22:32b

IMO anyone who quotes that scripture in support of his own false doctrine regarding spiritual "bodies" in heaven only continues showing that he has a lack of understanding of scripture.

During the earthly ministry of Jesus, the Sadducees approached Him once to challenge Him about the resurrection of the body from the dead (which they did not believe in).

By their reaction to Jesus' reply to them, the Sadducees made it clear that they understood that He had refuted any argument they may have had about the resurrection of the body from the dead by telling them that of necessity what God told Moses about being "the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob" meant that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob would rise again from the dead (and hence be seen alive in their bodies) because the ever-living God is not the God of the dead, but of the living [záō].

The context of what Jesus said is the Sadducees' challenge regarding the resurrection of the body from the dead.

The Sadducees did not try to argue the point with Him anymore after that.

When Jesus' friend, Lazarus, had died, his sisters called for Jesus, and when Jesus arrived, Lazarus' sister Martha said about her brother:

-- "I know that he shall rise from the dead [anístēmi] in the resurrection [anástasis] at the last day.

Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection [anástasis] and the the Life [zōḗ]! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live [zōḗ]. And whoever is alive [zōḗ] AND believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" -- John 11:24-26.

In the long list of verses where they appear, the words zoe and zao are always linked to living in the human body in the New Testament - without exception.

This has been refuted many times. But you have to avoided this because it exposes your teaching.

 

[Rich R]

This has been refuted many times. But you have to avoided this because it exposes your teaching.

Interesting Zao pointing out that the Sadducees stopped arguing after Jesus gave them scriptures.

 

[WPM]

Interesting Zao pointing out that the Sadducees stopped arguing after Jesus gave them scriptures.

I gave him Scripture but he kept on arguing! Interesting!

 

[Zao is life]

As you say, it was certainly no secret that all the nations would be blessed in Abraham, but there is something that was kept secret until God revealed it to Paul.

Rom 16:25,

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,​

​

First of all, the word "mystery" in the KJV and other English translations is the Greek work "musterion" which Strong's Concordance defines as: "a secret of 'mystery'"

Abbott-Smith's Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament says: "that which is known to the μύστης (initiated), a mystery or secret doctrine"

I think secret better communicates. A mystery may never be known, but a secret can be known once revealed. Romans 16:25 says that it was kept secret since the world began and wasn't known until it was revealed by Paul (there are other verses that say so also, which I'll get to).

The phrase, "my (Paul) Gospel" is interesting. Usually we think of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John's gospel, but here we see that Paul had a gospel, or some good news. Paul's gospel was very different than the other four. For one thing, the four gospels all deal with Israel. Jesus said as much a few times. In Matthew 15 there is an account of a Canaanite woman who wanted Jesus to cast devil spirits out of her daughter. Jesus said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." In Matthew 10 Jesus told his apostles to go to the lost sheep of the tribe of Israel.

Paul described the state of Gentiles during the entire OT including the four gospels.

Eph 2:11-12,

11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;​

​

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:​

​

That must of hurt! But things did get better:

Eph 3:3-6,

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,​

​

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)​

​

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;​

​

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:​

​

Abraham did not know that the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, of the same body, and partakers of the promise. He knew they'd be blessed in Israel because they could ride on their coat tails so to speak, but that everyone in the whole world could be God's chosen people was not known. The devil had a hard enough time keeping a few people (Israel) from getting God's promises, but now he had to deal with the whole world.

Along those lines, there is another interesting verse about the devil and the secret.

1 Cor 2:7-8,

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:​

​

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.​

Now I know their is some debate on who are the princes of the world are. I don't want to get into that unless you really want me to. For now, suffice it to say the there is little doubt the Jew of the first century would have understood it to mean a spiritual being, in this case, the devil. While the upshot of the mystery would have totally neutered the power of the devil, it wouldn't have meant much to earthly rulers. They probably would have crucified him anyway, whereas the devil most definitely would not have killed him. You'll see why I say that in a minute.

Col 1:25-27,

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;​

​

26 [Even] the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:​

​

27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:​

Again, from verse 26, you can see that the mysery was kept secret until it was revealed to Paul. The "now" is when Paul was alive. Prior to the "now" of Paul's time the nobody knew the mystery. But reall kicker, and the reason the devil would not have killed Jesus had he know the mystery is in verse 27, namely that it is Christ in each and every born again believer. The devil had a hard enough time dealing with Jesus. But Jesus could only be in one place at a time doing one part of God's will. Now wherever their is a Christian, their is Jesus. In the Gospels Jesus said he'd be wherever there was two people. But that was before Pentecost. Now it only take one born again believer, filled with all the fullness of God (Eph 3:9) to destroy the works of the devil! Ha, take that Satan, you old bird!

Of course, if the devil could keep Christians from knowing the secret, it's minimize the effects and he'd have more power. That's why the mystery is so important for all Christians to know.

Thanks for that.

Yes. 2,000 years later we tend not to appreciate it nearly, nearly as much as we should because it's not "new" good news anymore.

But I think the mystery is contained in Genesis 3:15, and I believe it's possible that ancient peoples had some sort of knowledge of it, though it was a mystery to them, because the seed (zera) of the woman (Ishshah) seems to have given rise to a lot of false religion surrounding the seed of the woman (zera Ishshah), such as the seed of Ishtar (Ishshah | Ishtar), the seed (zara) of thushtra (zara thushtra i.e Zoroaster), etc etc.

- unless we regard such linguistic coincidences as just that - coincidence.

So I agree that it was a mystery from very ancient times, and (IMO anyway) not surprisingly a lot of mystery religions seem to have sprung up around what had been told Eve in Genesis 3:15.

That mystery - or the full understanding of it - was indeed revealed to Paul. I agree.

There is another reason why that serpent would not have done everything in his ability that was allowed him by God to have Christ killed - he would not have wanted Christ killed had he known that Christ's death and subsequent resurrection would turn out to be his eternal defeat!! Revelation 12:12 indicates his reaction when he realized it.

But also, (not that I have seen you saying anything different about this, but just to make it clear what my belief is regarding Jews who do not believe in Jesus),

I believe that the natural seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who do not believe in Jesus are yet still (and have always been) beloved of God - though they are not partakers of the New Covenant in Christ (and therefore not saved by Christ):

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as concerning the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes."
-- Romans 11:28.

The fathers are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and ".. they are beloved for the father's sakes" means what it says and is undervalued, IMO

I believe that "for your sakes" is just a way of saying "and this is to your benefit" (I do not believe their salvation has been "sacrificed" for the sake of anyone - and this is proved by the fact that Paul also said),

"Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy."; and

"They also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again." -- Romans 11:23 & 28.

So I think God has made sure that we maintain a proper balance in our understanding, but .. a lot of unbalanced stuff gets taught.

 

[Zao is life]

I couldn't resist! You tend to be rather emotional in discussions, irrational seemingly feminine at times. Sorry didn't mean to challenge your manhood!

LOL. I'm sure you didn't mean to.

But I have no doubts about my manhood and so it makes me wonder about you. Maybe this is why your posts are as full of "clean" thoughts as the above one is.

I've learned about guys who falsely accuse other guys in my time. There's normally something hidden in the accuser causing them to accuse someone else - and many of your posts are an example of the things you are talking about.

PS: I do have sympathy for you. I'm not one of those guys who are filled with hatred for people with issues.

 

[Zao is life]

Good stuf. I nevere saw that about zoe/zao.

I just read somewhere else about why Jesus said, "God is not the God of the dead..." which said what you said. Considering all the scriptures that say dead people are dead and will remain so until Jesus returns, that makes way more sense.

The dead not really being dead doctrine has a long history. It began with Egypt, adopted by the Greeks, and eventually and unfortunately by the orthodox church. What particularly gets me is when I hear a Pasor or Priest say something like, "God wanted another flower in heaven so He took little 2 month old Johnie." What's the difference between that and sayig, "God murdered little 2 month old Johnie becasue He had an empty flower vase!" No wonder so many loath Chrisianity and want nothing to do with God.

I do believe that we have a soul & spirit that will go to be with Christ once it becomes detached from the body (because what I've read Paul saying certainly does imply or even state that, IMO) - but we will find ourselves limbless until the resurrection because God created Adam to live in the created earth in his created body. One human with one body, and with one soul which is the mind and the life of the person, and with one spirit which is either born of God or does not exist because death is not the opposite of eternal life. Death is the absence of life.

 

[Zao is life]

I gave him Scripture but he kept on arguing! Interesting!

You always only give scripture interpreted by yourself in such a way as to comply with your own doctrines and misinterpretation of other scriptures - and that shows that you do not believe scripture.

That's why I disengage from arguing with you. Otherwise we end up just swimming in the whirlpool of your polluted water.

 

[Zao is life]

This has been refuted many times. But you have to avoided this because it exposes your teaching.

You have never refuted anything in scripture. You cannot refute scripture. Your many failed attempts only expose your false doctrines.