The Root question of Amillenial vs Premillenial

[Spiritual Israelite]

Well, if your saying it's all "signified" then I can say that "signified" in Rev 1:1 really means it's all literal. Why not?

LOL! Why not? Because that's not what the word means. Hello? My goodness. Can you please start being more honest?

signified (noun): the meaning or idea expressed by a sign, as distinct from the physical form in which it is expressed.

To be signified means it was symbolized with signs and symbols that were not meant to be taken literally. Not that literally everything in the book is symbolized, but a lot more of it is than you apparently think.

What's your method to determine what's literal and what is allegorical in any book of the Bible?

Why do I have to answer your questions over and over again? Do you never remember my answers? I've already answered this question from you, or at least variations of this question, multiple times. For one thing, I don't make any assumptions one way or another about any given verse, as I've told you several times before already. I look at what type of text is being used in any given passage. I look at the context. I keep other scripture in mind to be careful not to cause a contradiction. And, most importantly, I try to rely on the Holy Spirit to help me understand what any given verse or passage means. This is especially important when interpreting highly symbolic books like Daniel, Isaiah or Revelation.

 

[rwb]

I agree with almost all of that, but what about the 2 resurrections mentioned in Rev 20 that occur after Satan is chained for 1,000 years? I don't see Rev 20:15 saying that everybody not born again before Christ returns gets thrown into the fire. If that's the case why bother with the judgment in verse 13? Verse 15 just says those not found in the book of life get thrown into the fire. It doesn't say all those who stand at the judgment of verse 13 share the same fate.

What two resurrections mentioned in Rev 20 are you referring to? I find only that which John writes as the "first resurrection" and a physical bodily resurrection of the dead after this period of time John writes "a thousand years" has ended.

 

[IndianaRob]

What two resurrections mentioned in Rev 20 are you referring to? I find only that which John writes as the "first resurrection" and a physical bodily resurrection of the dead after this period of time John writes "a thousand years" has ended.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection is separated by the thousand years.

 

[rwb]

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection is separated by the thousand years.

Yes the first resurrection is separated by a/the thousand years. Notice this does not say ONE thousand years? That's because a/the thousand years symbolizes TIME that began with the first advent of Christ and will not end until this symbolic time is finished.

 

[IndianaRob]

Yes the first resurrection is separated by a/the thousand years. Notice this does not say ONE thousand years? That's because a/the thousand years symbolizes TIME that began with the first advent of Christ and will not end until this symbolic time is finished.

I agree the 1000 years is a symbol but we’re given the definition of the thousand years here:

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

A thousand years is one day.

 

[Rich R]

LOL! Why not? Because that's not what the word means. Hello? My goodness. Can you please start being more honest?

signified (noun): the meaning or idea expressed by a sign, as distinct from the physical form in which it is expressed.

To be signified means it was symbolized with signs and symbols that were not meant to be taken literally. Not that literally everything in the book is symbolized, but a lot more of it is than you apparently think.

Says who? What it the yardstick?

Why do I have to answer your questions over and over again? Do you never remember my answers? I've already answered this question from you, or at least variations of this question, multiple times. For one thing, I don't make any assumptions one way or another about any given verse, as I've told you several times before already. I look at what type of text is being used in any given passage. I look at the context. I keep other scripture in mind to be careful not to cause a contradiction. And, most importantly, I try to rely on the Holy Spirit to help me understand what any given verse or passage means. This is especially important when interpreting highly symbolic books like Daniel, Isaiah or Revelation.

I understand that there is symbols as well as literal verses. What makes all the promises of land (earth) symbolic and not literal? If you've already answered that, sorry but I am guilty of not seeing it. All you need to do is refer me to the post where you answered it and I'll look at it with fresh eyes. Again, my question is what makes the promise of land with it's gardens, rivers, mountains, friendly wild animals, etc. symbolic?

 

[Rich R]

What two resurrections mentioned in Rev 20 are you referring to? I find only that which John writes as the "first resurrection" and a physical bodily resurrection of the dead after this period of time John writes "a thousand years" has ended.

You seemed to have answered your own question there; the first resurrection and another after this period of time. That is exactly what I mean by two resurrections. I'll elaborate:

The ones in verse 6 are not judged. They reign with Jesus. That is quite a bit different than those mentioned in verses 12-15 which is clearly different. Also look at verse 5, "the rest of the dead." The first resurrection of the just reign with Jesus during the millennium, the second are raised after the millennium and are judged (v5 & 12-15). Some make it and some don't. All of the ones in the first reign with Jesus and enjoy the promises God made to Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.

I don't see anything about a "physical bodily resurrection" in Revelation.

 

[rwb]

I agree the 1000 years is a symbol but we’re given the definition of the thousand years here:

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

A thousand years is one day.

The Lord is long-suffering! Remember in context this verse is in reference to what mankind should expect when the long-suffering of our Lord has ended. It shall be the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men, because the Lord is not slack concerning His promise but is long-suffering to "us-ward". IOW are not like those ungodly me. Though it seems the Lord's return is long delayed, it will not be. Because as soon as the "us-ward" come to repentance, the day of the Lord will come. When the heavens shall pass away and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works therein shall be burned up. In light of all this destruction destined to come, Christians must be holy and display godliness, not only looking for, but hasting the coming of the day of God.

2 Peter 3:7-12 (KJV) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Notice in the verse you quoted, like the verses in Rev 20 do NOT say ONE thousand years as one day. It says "a thousand years" as one day. That again speaks of an undetermined amount of TIME that is likened unto the long-suffering of our Lord that will be what it will be and not one day more or less.

 

[rwb]

Says who? What it the yardstick?

I understand that there is symbols as well as literal verses. What makes all the promises of land (earth) symbolic and not literal? If you've already answered that, sorry but I am guilty of not seeing it. All you need to do is refer me to the post where you answered it and I'll look at it with fresh eyes. Again, my question is what makes the promise of land with it's gardens, rivers, mountains, friendly wild animals, etc. symbolic?

As I've already told you through the words of Joshua, the promise of land was literally fulfilled when Israel crossed over into the promised land. It could have been theirs forever IF they had remained obedient to the covenant and faithfully kept the law of God. I showed you how you're saying that Israel has not yet received the land of promise forces contradiction, but you ignored the words recorded in Joshua. Why?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Says who? What it the yardstick?

Says the dictionary that defines what the word signified means. What else can it mean in the context of the obviously highly symbolic book of Revelation?

I understand that there is symbols as well as literal verses. What makes all the promises of land (earth) symbolic and not literal? If you've already answered that, sorry but I am guilty of not seeing it. All you need to do is refer me to the post where you answered it and I'll look at it with fresh eyes. Again, my question is what makes the promise of land with it's gardens, rivers, mountains, friendly wild animals, etc. symbolic?

I could refer you to all 10 or 12 posts where I already answered it, but I don't want to take the time to find them. Once again, I believe what is promised is the new heavens and new earth. That is what Peter said we should be looking for in fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”..........13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

 

[IndianaRob]

The Lord is long-suffering! Remember in context this verse is in reference to what mankind should expect when the long-suffering of our Lord has ended. It shall be the day of judgement and perdition of ungodly men, because the Lord is not slack concerning His promise but is long-suffering to "us-ward". IOW are not like those ungodly me. Though it seems the Lord's return is long delayed, it will not be. Because as soon as the "us-ward" come to repentance, the day of the Lord will come. When the heavens shall pass away and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works therein shall be burned up. In light of all this destruction destined to come, Christians must be holy and display godliness, not only looking for, but hasting the coming of the day of God.

2 Peter 3:7-12 (KJV) But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Notice in the verse you quoted, like the verses in Rev 20 do NOT say ONE thousand years as one day. It says "a thousand years" as one day. That again speaks of an undetermined amount of TIME that is likened unto the long-suffering of our Lord that will be what it will be and not one day more or less.

How do you reconcile the thousand year gap in the first resurrection?

 

[The Light]

Good observation! I've actually seen that from the git-go, but I let just let it slide, though I finally felt it need to be addressed. I pretty much ignore all his, "your avoiding answering" mantras. He knows deep down where things stand.

I actually think he is able to lie to himself in an attempt to protect an unscriptural doctrine.

But one thing he's done is make me dig deeper into the scriptures. I believe it's Proverbs that says something about iron sharpening iron. Can't hurt anything. I actually did a teaching at my fellowship last Sunday based on this thread and the people present were blessed to hear it, which just goes to show that there are two kinds of people in the world; those that agree with me and those that don't. I'm happy to accept either one as a brother or sister.

I'm sure his heart is with God. Like the rest of us, he's just trying to stick up for God's word to the best of his ability and from what he's been taught. But I've seen some pretty stubborn people finally willing to change. I myself for one!

It seems more about doctrine than righteousness to me. Leading others from truth with his antics doesn't sit well. Stop with the false cries of avoidance when there is none. Stop claims that no scripture was provided when there is. I wish he would stop the trolling and just present scripture. Become a man.

 

[rwb]

You seemed to have answered your own question there; the first resurrection and another after this period of time. That is exactly what I mean by two resurrections. I'll elaborate:

The ones in verse 6 are not judged. They reign with Jesus. That is quite a bit different than those mentioned in verses 12-15 which is clearly different. Also look at verse 5, "the rest of the dead." The first resurrection of the just reign with Jesus during the millennium, the second are raised after the millennium and are judged (v5 & 12-15). Some make it and some don't. All of the ones in the first reign with Jesus and enjoy the promises God made to Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, etc.

I don't see anything about a "physical bodily resurrection" in Revelation.

John does write of a physical resurrection in Rev 20. Calling it the "first resurrection." John speaks of the dead in Christ as having lived and reigned with Christ during this time he writes a thousand years. The first group is of those who died as martyrs for Christ. They are living souls in heaven after being killed, faithful unto death they are in heaven the spiritual body of Christ without human form.

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Next John tells us the rest of the dead, or those who do had not lived and reigned with Christ within the time symbolized a thousand years. They shall not be resurrected to damnation until this time symbolized a thousand years has finished. That will be in an hour coming, when the last trumpet begins to sound that time (a thousand years) given whereby man must be saved shall be no longer.

"This is the first resurrection" does not belong to the rest of the dead it is written for those saints of vs 6. Those called blessed and holy who have part in the "first resurrection" and have overcome the second death and shall reign with Christ during the same time period as those who were martyred "a thousand years."

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is how we know without a doubt "a thousand years" is not literally one thousand years, but symbolizes TIME given this earth for spiritually building the Kingdom of God in heaven as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth. And because there shall be but ONE bodily resurrection of ALL who are physically dead in the hour coming, when the last trumpet sounds, and time for being saved shall be no longer, we know the first resurrection speaks of the physical resurrection of Christ that man must have part in before they die to overcome the second death.

Vs 4 shows us the martyred saints who had lived and died during this symbolic period of time, and vs 6 shows us that martyred saints will not be the only spiritual body in heaven after physical death. There will also be others who shall also reign with Christ during their lifetime (a thousand years) being part in the first resurrection which is to spiritually have part in the life of Christ through His Spirit in us. When man is born again or born from above, we have part in the first resurrection through Christ, and our life of living and reigning with Him forever begins and death no longer has any power over us. Whether we are martyred for our faith in Christ, or we live and die of old age, as long as we are faithful unto death during time symbolized a thousand years, we shall always be spiritually alive with Christ forever.

The rest of the dead, or those who never live and reign with Christ during their time on this earth are all the dead "small and great" who shall be called to stand before God at the GWT to give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life. Their fate shall be with Satan in the lake of fire that is the second death.

 

[rwb]

How do you reconcile the thousand year gap in the first resurrection?

There is no one thousand year gap because a/the thousand years symbolizes TIME that began with the first advent of Christ come to earth a man, and shall end when the last/seventh trumpet begins to sounds.

 

[IndianaRob]

There is no one thousand year gap because a/the thousand years symbolizes TIME that began with the first advent of Christ come to earth a man, and shall end when the last/seventh trumpet begins to sounds.

That makes no sense though. There is a resurrection before the thousand years and those people lived a thousand years and then another group is raised at the end of the thousand years.

According to what your saying there would’ve been a resurrection at the first advent of Christ and then another resurrection at the second advent of Christ.

Your thoughts on this?

 

[rwb]

That makes no sense though. There is a resurrection before the thousand years and those people lived a thousand years and then another group is raised at the end of the thousand years.

According to what your saying there would’ve been a resurrection at the first advent of Christ and then another resurrection at the second advent of Christ.

Your thoughts on this?

The first resurrection is not before the thousand years, it is within the thousand years. And all who have part in the first resurrection within this period of time have overcome the second death. The "first resurrection" man must have part in is not being physically resurrected. Because there will be NO physical resurrections of the dead before the hour that is coming, when the last trumpet sounds, and time given this earth whereby man must be saved shall be no longer. There is only one man resurrected to immortal & incorruptible physical life again, He is the "first resurrection" of the dead.

In life before we physically die, we must have part in Christ, the first resurrection, because having part in the first resurrection is to have part in the resurrection life of Christ when we are born again. That's why John writes of the martyred saints saying, "they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Before they were martyred, they lived and reigned with Christ in time before they were killed. IOW they were faithful unto death. How could they have already lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years if the thousand years will not begin until after Christ comes again?

John 11:25 (KJV) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

It's not only the martyred saints of vs 4 who have lived and reigned with Christ during this time symbolized a thousand years. There shall be others (vs 6) who are not numbered with those martyred who shall also reign with Christ in this same symbolic time. They are faithful saints who though not physically martyred are faithful saints of Christ none the less.

 

[Rich R]

What two resurrections mentioned in Rev 20 are you referring to? I find only that which John writes as the "first resurrection" and a physical bodily resurrection of the dead after this period of time John writes "a thousand years" has ended.

See Post #347.

As I've already told you through the words of Joshua, the promise of land was literally fulfilled when Israel crossed over into the promised land. It could have been theirs forever IF they had remained obedient to the covenant and faithfully kept the law of God. I showed you how you're saying that Israel has not yet received the land of promise forces contradiction, but you ignored the words recorded in Joshua. Why?

Subsequent to Joshua God made many promises, that despite Israel's disobedience, He'd still give them the land and a kingdom. Lot's of grace was involved, which is something that most people have a hard time understanding. People tend to be vindictive.

 

[Rich R]

Says the dictionary that defines what the word signified means. What else can it mean in the context of the obviously highly symbolic book of Revelation?


I could refer you to all 10 or 12 posts where I already answered it, but I don't want to take the time to find them. Once again, I believe what is promised is the new heavens and new earth. That is what Peter said we should be looking for in fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming.

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.”..........13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

OK, finally I get it!

 

[Rich R]

John does write of a physical resurrection in Rev 20. Calling it the "first resurrection." John speaks of the dead in Christ as having lived and reigned with Christ during this time he writes a thousand years. The first group is of those who died as martyrs for Christ. They are living souls in heaven after being killed, faithful unto death they are in heaven the spiritual body of Christ without human form.

Revelation 20:4-6 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Next John tells us the rest of the dead, or those who do had not lived and reigned with Christ within the time symbolized a thousand years. They shall not be resurrected to damnation until this time symbolized a thousand years has finished. That will be in an hour coming, when the last trumpet begins to sound that time (a thousand years) given whereby man must be saved shall be no longer.

"This is the first resurrection" does not belong to the rest of the dead it is written for those saints of vs 6. Those called blessed and holy who have part in the "first resurrection" and have overcome the second death and shall reign with Christ during the same time period as those who were martyred "a thousand years."

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

This is how we know without a doubt "a thousand years" is not literally one thousand years, but symbolizes TIME given this earth for spiritually building the Kingdom of God in heaven as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the earth. And because there shall be but ONE bodily resurrection of ALL who are physically dead in the hour coming, when the last trumpet sounds, and time for being saved shall be no longer, we know the first resurrection speaks of the physical resurrection of Christ that man must have part in before they die to overcome the second death.

Vs 4 shows us the martyred saints who had lived and died during this symbolic period of time, and vs 6 shows us that martyred saints will not be the only spiritual body in heaven after physical death. There will also be others who shall also reign with Christ during their lifetime (a thousand years) being part in the first resurrection which is to spiritually have part in the life of Christ through His Spirit in us. When man is born again or born from above, we have part in the first resurrection through Christ, and our life of living and reigning with Him forever begins and death no longer has any power over us. Whether we are martyred for our faith in Christ, or we live and die of old age, as long as we are faithful unto death during time symbolized a thousand years, we shall always be spiritually alive with Christ forever.

The rest of the dead, or those who never live and reign with Christ during their time on this earth are all the dead "small and great" who shall be called to stand before God at the GWT to give account according to what is written in the books and the book of life. Their fate shall be with Satan in the lake of fire that is the second death.

Not sure where the Bible talks about humans having spiritual bodies in heaven. I see that about angels, but God made people earthlings.

 

[rwb]

See Post #347.

Subsequent to Joshua God made many promises, that despite Israel's disobedience, He'd still give them the land and a kingdom. Lot's of grace was involved, which is something that most people have a hard time understanding. People tend to be vindictive.

What many promises despite Israel's disobedience are you referring to?

The only promise of land and a Kingdom not yet completely fulfilled but has most assuredly has come shall be found by WHOSOEVER (Jew & Gentile together) is according to grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord. This promise is everlasting life on the new earth after this first earth has passed away. Why would Israel or anyone else settle for a small portion of land on this earth when according to grace through faith in Christ man will inherit the whole earth?