The Root question of Amillenial vs Premillenial

[Rich R]

Stop avoiding! Reveal the future tenses in the texts. I will not hold my breath.

Well, it'd be hard for me to reveal the future tense. It's not there, nor did I say it was. So now that I've answered your question for the 5th or 6th time, I'd think you can no longer falsely accuse me of avoiding it. But then again, it wouldn't surprise me if you did. But that's OK. I understand. No problem

Can you repeat to me what I actually said about the tenses? You should be able to find in any one of a half dozen posts in which I explained it in detail. If so, am I right or wrong? Or the other option would be telling me why you avoid doing that. If you decide to answer it, please at least use Greek Grammar 101 material to back up whatever you say.

 

[WPM]

Well, it'd be hard for me to reveal the future tense. It's not there, nor did I say it was. So now that I've answered your question for the 5th or 6th time, I'd think you can no longer falsely accuse me of avoiding it. But then again, it wouldn't surprise me if you did. But that's OK. I understand. No problem

Can you repeat to me what I actually said about the tenses? You should be able to find in any one of a half dozen posts in which I explained it in detail. If so, am I right or wrong? Or the other option would be telling me why you avoid doing that. If you decide to answer it, please at least use Greek Grammar 101 material to back up whatever you say.

Avoidance and twisting the truth are your MO. You have lost all respect about here. You are not even repentant or apologetic. Sad!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I was referring to the Eternal state, that will come as described in Revelation 21 t0 22
The new heavens and earth will be spiritual entities, not physical, as they will exist forever.

But the time of the Millennium reign of King Jesus, will still be physical, as there will still be death, Isaiah 65:20, and procreation.
It will be as it was in the beginning, a perfect world of God's Creation.

Isaiah 65:20 is about the new heavens and new earth, not the thousand years. You are making the timing what you want it to be instead of allowing John to tell you the timing of it. He clearly indicated that the new heavens and new earth are ushered in AFTER the thousand years (Revelation 20-21).

Isaiah 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

You interpret Isaiah 65:20 without any consideration of the context or of other scripture. That's reckless on your part. You expect us to believe that verse 20 is talking about literal death (a literal 100 year old child, too?) during the thousand years which would then mean that no one would mourn anyone's death during that time because the previous verse talks about no more weeping or crying at that point (which should remind you of Revelation 21:4). Your denial that verse 20 relates to verse 17 shows your willingness to make it say whatever you want it to say. Verses 18-25 very obviously relate directly to verse 17. Any unbiased person can clearly see that.

But, you change the timing of verse 20 to the thousand years instead because you know that if you acknowledge that it relates to the new heavens and new earth, as it so obviously does, then you would have to acknowledge that it occurs after the thousand years. You are not recognizing that Isaiah spoke of eternity in a figurative way in verse 20 to people who had no concept of eternity back then like people have in NT times when the gospel of Christ that offer eternal life has been preached. Think about it. A 100 year old child? Do you take that literally? No 100 year old is a child. Not even in the days when people lived to be hundreds of years old. So, that's clearly figurative text. It indicates that even after 100 years (if there was time in eternity) someone would not age at all because people won't age in eternity. The sinner being 100 years old being accursed means that sinners (unbelievers) will always be accursed for eternity. If there was actually time in eternity, then after 100 years they would be accursed. After 1000 years they would still be accursed. After 5000 years they would still be accursed. And so on for eternity.

But, you have decided to have an interpretation that means people will not mourn anyone's death during a supposed future earthly millennium, which is obviously ludicrous. But, you do not even think about such things.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

All good stuff. Yes Christians now have direct access to God. But I fail to see how it annuls anything I said about God's New Covenant with Israel. None of those verses say the New Covenant has been completely fulfilled. Given the clarity of the nature of the promised land to Israel (over 150 verses on that), clearly it has not been brought to its fullness, which is exactly what Hebrews says in just a few verses down the line; The Old is, "ready to vanish away."

So, the old was ready to vanish away already in 64 AD or so when the book of Hebrews was written, but you think it still hasn't vanished away around 1,960 years later? LOL. Let us know if you ever want to be taken seriously.

 

[Rich R]

LOL. Didn't take you long to catch on. You could answer every single post, and he would cry that you have avoided answering.

Basically, that's all he has in his tool bag.

Good observation! I've actually seen that from the git-go, but I let just let it slide, though I finally felt it need to be addressed. I pretty much ignore all his, "your avoiding answering" mantras. He knows deep down where things stand.

But one thing he's done is make me dig deeper into the scriptures. I believe it's Proverbs that says something about iron sharpening iron. Can't hurt anything. I actually did a teaching at my fellowship last Sunday based on this thread and the people present were blessed to hear it, which just goes to show that there are two kinds of people in the world; those that agree with me and those that don't. I'm happy to accept either one as a brother or sister.

I'm sure his heart is with God. Like the rest of us, he's just trying to stick up for God's word to the best of his ability and from what he's been taught. But I've seen some pretty stubborn people finally willing to change. I myself for one!

Thanks.

 

[Rich R]

I understand your dilemma, Rich! As Paul has written some things remain foolishness to you, because these things are spiritually discerned. Natural man, which in your particular case I believe you to be preoccupied with the flesh, cannot understand the things of God that might only be understood by spiritual man.

Spoken like a true Pharisee! Or a true Gnostic? Whatever. Take your pick.

 

[WPM]

Spoken like a true Pharisee! Or a true Gnostic? Whatever. Take your pick.

More projection!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Good translations, but they fail to account for the tenses, which makes a huge difference since the heart of our discussion is when this all takes place. I gave you the tenses. You should be able to verify what I said with an interlinear. You may have to Google what the aorists and perfect tenses mean, but that should be easy.


Well, I don't see Israel in the promised land where the sheep lay with the lions. It didn't happen in 70 AD nor has it happened in the 2,000+ years since. It must be future. Maybe when Jesus comes back? That just may be the answer!

You continue to fail to acknowledge that God expanded His promise to Abraham and his seed beyond the original promised land that Abraham considered "a strange country" (Hebrews 11:9) to the whole world.

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

You also continue to fail to acknowledge that Gentile believers are fellowheirs with Israelite believers of those promises (Ephesians 3:1-6). You continue to try to separate Jews and Gentiles even though the blood of Christ brought them together as one. The new covenant was established by the blood of Christ and is not just for Israel, but also for Gentiles! He did not die just for Israel, obviously!

Matthew 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Spoken like a true Pharisee! Or a true Gnostic? Whatever. Take your pick.

So, Paul was "a true Pharisee" or "a trust Gnostic" after being saved? It seems that you don't accept what is written in 1 Corinthians 2:9-16.

 

[Rich R]

LOL. Yes, there clearly is no symbolism in the book of Revelation. Well, maybe just a little. The fact that it was purposely "signified" (Rev 1:1) can just be ignored, of course. Right?

Well, if your saying it's all "signified" then I can say that "signified" in Rev 1:1 really means it's all literal. Why not?

What's your method to determine what's literal and what is allegorical in any book of the Bible?

 

[Rich R]

More projection!

Well, what you said is like something a Pharisee or Gnostic would say. On the other hand, I've never accused you of being fleshy, unable to understand spiritual things, nor would I ever deign to do so. You have a judge, Jesus. I'd be loathe to take over his roll. So where does the projection come in?

 

[Rich R]

You continue to fail to acknowledge that God expanded His promise to Abraham and his seed beyond the original promised land that Abraham considered "a strange country" (Hebrews 11:9) to the whole world.

I've acknowledged as much ever since you brought it up.

Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

You also continue to fail to acknowledge that Gentile believers are fellowheirs with Israelite believers of those promises (Ephesians 3:1-6). You continue to try to separate Jews and Gentiles even though the blood of Christ brought them together as one. The new covenant was established by the blood of Christ and is not just for Israel, but also for Gentiles! He did not die just for Israel, obviously!

You can't possibly be reading my posts. I've addressed the whole fellowheirs thing in about 3 posts now.

Matthew 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

And that says there is no future promise of a kingdom on the earth to Israel as per Jeremiah 31:31 how? I mean it's a great verse, but it says nothing about when the new covenant would be fulfilled. If you look at God's covenant promise to Israel in the OT it's incredibly obvious it is awaiting complete fulfillment.

Quick question; what do you expect to happen when Jesus returns? Exactly how will that change things? I mean if you think all the promises of the OT have already been fulfilled, then it'd seem like you expect nothing to change. But maybe I'm missing something there.

 

[WPM]

Well, what you said is like something a Pharisee or Gnostic would say. On the other hand, I've never accused you of being fleshy, unable to understand spiritual things, nor would I ever deign to do so. You have a judge, Jesus. I'd be loathe to take over his roll. So where does the projection come in?

You threw out the ad hominem. You are the one who has been spreading historic lies and questioning the cross-work.

 

[rwb]

Well, what you said is like something a Pharisee or Gnostic would say. On the other hand, I've never accused you of being fleshy, unable to understand spiritual things, nor would I ever deign to do so. You have a judge, Jesus. I'd be loathe to take over his roll. So where does the projection come in?

Your doctrine is dependent upon literal, physical fulfillment of that which is spiritually fulfilled! If that is not being of the flesh, focused on physical fulfillment I don't know what is!

How do you interpret Christ when He tells us the Kingdom of God is not now of the world, and that the Kingdom of God is not observable through physical sight, and that the Kingdom of God is within you, and the only way that one might know (see) and enter the Kingdom of God is "Ye must be born again"?

 

[rwb]

And that says there is no future promise of a kingdom on the earth to Israel as per Jeremiah 31:31 how

Where does Jeremiah or any other prophet promise there will be a kingdom on an earth that is destined to destruction?

 

[Rich R]

Your doctrine is dependent upon literal, physical fulfillment of that which is spiritually fulfilled! If that is not being of the flesh, focused on physical fulfillment I don't know what is!

How do you interpret Christ when He tells us the Kingdom of God is not now of the world, and that the Kingdom of God is not observable through physical sight, and that the Kingdom of God is within you, and the only way that one might know (see) and enter the Kingdom of God is "Ye must be born again"?

I'm not 100% sure of what Jesus was saying there and I don't want to speculate. But I do understand enough about it that does not appear to preclude the promises in Jeremiah 31 (and several other places) from happening at some point.

I've asked this question in another post, but I'll repeat it here in case you missed it: What do you expect to happen when Jesus returns? Exactly how will that change things? I mean if all the promises of the OT have already been fulfilled, then it'd seem like nothing will change.

 

[rwb]

I've asked this question in another post, but I'll repeat it here in case you missed it.

What do you expect to happen when Jesus returns? Exactly how will that change things? I mean if you think all the promises of the OT have already been fulfilled, then it'd seem like you expect nothing to change. But maybe I'm missing something there.

When Christ returns according to the Scriptures, the dead in Christ shall be resurrected to immortal life with those who are still alive in Christ to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Then the fire of God's wrath shall be poured out upon this earth and every living breathing creature still alive upon it. Then we read of the DEAD being called to stand before God at the GWT to give account according to all that is found written in the books and the book of life. Then we, being clothed in immortal & incorruptible flesh shall return with Christ to the NEW EARTH, where we will be with Him forevermore.

Anyone from throughout the earth, whether Jew or Gentile matters not, MUST be saved before the last trumpet sounds that Christ has come again, and time given this earth for being saved shall be no longer, or they shall be cast into the lake of fire with Satan and all who belong to him.

 

[Rich R]

When Christ returns according to the Scriptures, the dead in Christ shall be resurrected to immortal life with those who are still alive in Christ to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Then the fire of God's wrath shall be poured out upon this earth and every living breathing creature still alive upon it. Then we read of the DEAD being called to stand before God at the GWT to give account according to all that is found written in the books and the book of life. Then we, being clothed in immortal & incorruptible flesh shall return with Christ to the NEW EARTH, where we will be with Him forevermore.

Anyone from throughout the earth, whether Jew or Gentile matters not, MUST be saved before the last trumpet sounds that Christ has come again, and time given this earth for being saved shall be no longer, or they shall be cast into the lake of fire with Satan and all who belong to him.

I agree with almost all of that, but what about the 2 resurrections mentioned in Rev 20 that occur after Satan is chained for 1,000 years? I don't see Rev 20:15 saying that everybody not born again before Christ returns gets thrown into the fire. If that's the case why bother with the judgment in verse 13? Verse 15 just says those not found in the book of life get thrown into the fire. It doesn't say all those who stand at the judgment of verse 13 share the same fate.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I've acknowledged as much ever since you brought it up.

You have not. You continue to insist that Israel will inherit the original promised land as described in the OT.

You can't possibly be reading my posts. I've addressed the whole fellowheirs thing in about 3 posts now.

I am reading all of your posts that you've addressed to me. Maybe not all of them, overall. There's too many to read every single post in the thread.

So, what do you actually believe then? Do you believe that God has two different people groups that He calls His own or not? With one being the church and one being Israel? Yes or no? And what exactly do you believe that His people will inherit when Jesus returns? Clear it all up for me right here. Be as specific as possible.

And that says there is no future promise of a kingdom on the earth to Israel as per Jeremiah 31:31 how? I mean it's a great verse, but it says nothing about when the new covenant would be fulfilled. If you look at God's covenant promise to Israel in the OT it's incredibly obvious it is awaiting complete fulfillment.

Goodness sakes. How can you, as a Christian, not have any understanding of the new covenant? Do you somehow not understand that it's all about the shed blood of Christ that provides salvation and the forgiveness of sins?

Matthew 26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Did Jesus die just for Israel or for the whole world (1 John 2:1-2)?

Quick question; what do you expect to happen when Jesus returns?

Do you somehow not know that I'm an Amil? I expect that the dead in Christ will be resurrected and they, together with those in Christ who are alive and remain will be caught up together to meet Christ in the air after having their bodies changed to be immortal. Then, Jesus will proceed to take vengeance on all of His enemies left behind on the earth by way of "sudden destruction" by fire from which "they shall not escape" (1 Cor 15:22-23;50-54, 1 Thess 4:14-5:3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-13). After that is the judgment (Matthew 25:31-46) at the conclusion of which unbelievers will all be cast into the lake of fire (Matt 25:41, Rev 20:15) and believers will inherit eternal life with their immortal bodies in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world (Matthew 25:34,46).

Exactly how will that change things?

What do you mean? Change things from how they are now? Quite a bit, obviously. I think you can see that from what I said above without my having to explain it to you.

I mean if you think all the promises of the OT have already been fulfilled, then it'd seem like you expect nothing to change. But maybe I'm missing something there.

You are definitely missing something. Big time. I am not saying all the promises of the OT have been fulfilled. I'm saying that the promises were purposely hidden and made mysterious in the OT and the mystery was revealed in the NT. It's not made clear in the OT that Gentile believers would be fellowheirs with Israelite believers of the promises that God made to Abraham and his seed, but that is revealed in the NT. The OT promises were always for both Jew and Gentile believers, but that mystery was purposely hidden until it was revealed in the NT.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree with almost all of that, but what about the 2 resurrections mentioned in Rev 20 that occur after Satan is chained for 1,000 years?

What 2 resurrections are you talking about exactly? I don't see 2 resurrections mentioned as occurring after the thousand years ends. Jesus said that all of the dead, saved and lost, will be resurrected at generally the same time, so I suppose if you want to see the resurrection of the saved as a separate resurrection than that of the lost, you can. But, I still don't see where it says something about 2 resurrections after the thousand years.

I don't see Rev 20:15 saying that everybody not born again before Christ returns gets thrown into the fire. If that's the case why bother with the judgment in verse 13? Verse 15 just says those not found in the book of life get thrown into the fire. It doesn't say all those who stand at the judgment of verse 13 share the same fate.

For the life of me, I can't understand what you're saying here at all. Are those described in verse 13 not those whose names are not written in the book of life? It doesn't say anything about anyone being cast into the lake of fire until verse 15, so those referenced in verse 13 are included among those whose names are not written in the book of life.