The Root question of Amillenial vs Premillenial

[rwb]

Instead of coming out with your usual condescending nonsense, show me where i misrepresented the tenses.

You haven't! He is simply too blinded by what he has been taught to see! There is no man so blind as the man who REFUSES to see!

 

[WPM]

You haven't! He is simply too blinded by what he has been taught to see! There is no man so blind as the man who REFUSES to see!

So true bro. It is becoming more and more apparent. He makes sweeping claims but is not able to carry through with biblical proof or historic evidence.

 

[charity]

The Millennium reign of King Jesus on earth, will end when He hands the Kingdom back to God. 1 Corinthians 15:24

Then comes Eternity, with a Spiritual new heaven and earth. Revelation 21:1-7
Those who believe that happens at the glorious Return are mistaken, because Gods Promise to Jesus must be fulfilled. Psalms 2:8, Micah 5:2-5a.

Hello @Keraz,

The words you use (quote), 'with a spiritual new heaven and earth.' makes the new earth sound ethereal and insubstantial, can you please explain what you mean by spiritual in this case.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[covenantee]

Isaiah

11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.

65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

In Ancient Near East literature, something that was said twice signified the certainty of what was said.

Isaiah 35
9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

How shall the lion eat straw like the bullock if no lion shall be there?

 

[covenantee]

So why dont' we see lions laying with lambs, or children playing with asps? I've not seen even one single ICBM has being made into a plowshare.

Was your millennium in 70 AD?

 

[Rich R]

Instead of coming out with your usual condescending nonsense, show me where i misrepresented the tenses.

It appeared that you were suggesting that all the verbs in Hebrews 8:13 were in the past tense. We're you in fact agreeing with me that it has not yet come to pass?

 

[Rich R]

Instead of coming out with your usual condescending nonsense, show me where i misrepresented the tenses.

My post was, "So why dont' we see lions laying with lambs, or children playing with asps? I've not seen even one single ICBM has being made into a plowshare."

How is that condescending at at all, let alone condescending nonsense? Also, where in that post did you see me saying anything about tenses? You have a habit of accusing me of ignoring your posts. I think the evidence shows that It's more like you are ignoring my posts.

 

[Rich R]

Was your millennium in 70 AD?

Are you reading my posts without bias? If you just take my words for what they say, I can't imagine why you'd ask that question.

Now I suppose you will accuse me of not answering the question. But if you'd stop reading my posts as if they are allegorical you should easily answer that question for yourself.

 

[WPM]

It appeared that you were suggesting that all the verbs in Hebrews 8:13 were in the past tense. We're you in fact agreeing with me that it has not yet come to pass?

They are finished! They are accomplished - in full! Hello!

Do you participate in the Lord's Supper?

When Jesus instituted the Lord’s supper in Matthew 26:28, which represented His shed blood for the remission of our sins, He declared: “For this is my blood of the new testament [diathēkē], which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”

Jesus was here speaking here about His death! The Greek word here “testament” is diathēkē meaning covenant or testament. The shedding of His blood, which expressly secured “the remission of sins” for His elect, constituted “the new covenant.”

1 Corinthians 11:24-26: “And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament [diathēkē or covenant] in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.”

Believers are asked to remember the Lord's death – which is “the new testament [diathēkē or covenant] in [His] blood” – until He returns. “The new covenant” is here identified with “the Lord's death.” There is no way around it.

This is an ongoing demand.

The vicarious death of Christ, and the shedding of His blood, saw the complete fulfilment of the old covenant arrangement and the instigation of new covenant. Nothing else! Calvary secured it all! Jesus cried out “It is finished” in John 19:30. This is taken from the lone Greek word tetélestai. This means completed, executed, concluded, discharged (as in a debt). It also means paid in full or accomplished.

What was paid in full or accomplished? The penalty and punishment for your sin. It has been wonderfully and eternally paid for!

 

[WPM]

It appeared that you were suggesting that all the verbs in Hebrews 8:13 were in the past tense. We're you in fact agreeing with me that it has not yet come to pass?

Stop avoiding! Reveal the future tenses in the texts. I will not hold my breath.

 

[Rich R]

How foolish you continue to show yourself to be! Have you not even spiritual discernment to understand the difference between the 'lambs'/'sheep' of Christ, and 'wolves' wearing sheep's clothing feeding together?

Luke 10:3 (KJV) Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.

John 21:15 (KJV) So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

Matthew 7:15 (KJV) Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Acts 20:29 (KJV) For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

When we read in context, we learn Isaiah's prophecy would come to pass through "a rod out of the stem of Jesse". Only one having little to no spiritual knowledge could read this and deny his prophecy points to the advent of the promised Messiah that was to come.

Isaiah 11:1-9 (KJV) And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Revelation 22:16 (KJV) I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Revelation 5:5 (KJV) And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

Do you really believe that Isaiah's prophecy is directed to Israel of flesh when he writes this? When did Israel of flesh not seek after God and the promised Messiah? When is Israel of faith with Gentiles of faith together called by the name of Christ, CHRISTIAN? Is not Isaish's prophecy again pointing to what would come to pass when the promised Messiah came? A follower of Christ!

Isaiah 65:1 (KJV) I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

Acts 11:26 (KJV) And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Isaiah 65:8-11 (KJV) Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all. And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there. And Sharon shall be a fold of flocks, and the valley of Achor a place for the herds to lie down in, for my people that have sought me. But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number.

Are you so married to your false doctrine that you cannot understand Isaiah's prophecy pertains to all that would come SPIRITUALLY to pass when the promised Messiah came. A new heavens and new earth are being spiritually completed NOW, since the Messiah has come to earth a man. You're so preoccupied with looking for physical fulfillment that you show you have litter to no understanding of the Kingdom of God that the promised Messiah, Christ Jesus our Lord came to earth with. Christ does not leave us without understanding that the Kingdom of God He ushered in is not now of this world, and cannot be physically seen or entered because the Kingdom of God He came with is not and shall not be a physical kingdom but is a SPIRITUAL KINGDOM OF GOD, that has been being built in the Kingdom of heaven as the Gospel was sent unto all the nations of the earth. When we enter into the Kingdom of God through His Spirit in us, we have this promise. Jerusalem from above will be joy for His people, a place for rejoicing, where there will be no more death, no more accursed of God.

Isaiah 65:17-25 (KJV) For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Hebrews 12:22 (KJV) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

I finally get it!

My mistake all along was taking all your posts literally. Now I understand all your posts have really been allegorically. I can see the hidden meaning there; you now agree with everything I've said. You say that Isaiah should be read spiritually, but now I understand that you really mean it should be understood for what it clearly says, i.e. literally, and thus agree with what I think.

Of course I'm being facetious here. But you should get my point. If we don't read what's written, just taking the words for what they clearly say, there is no end as to where we might end up. One's own imagination becomes the arbitrator of truth. We no longer use the scriptures as that arbitrator.

 

[covenantee]

Are you reading my posts without bias? If you just take my words for what they say, I can't imagine why you'd ask that question.

Now I suppose you will accuse me of not answering the question. But if you'd stop reading my posts as if they are allegorical you should easily answer that question for yourself.

The Old is, "ready to vanish away."

That's what you said in post 288.

I said that it did vanish away in 70 AD.

You replied with lions, lambs, and asps i.e. your millennium.

What does your millennium have to do with 70 AD?

 

[Rich R]

They are finished! They are accomplished - in full! Hello!

Do you participate in the Lord's Supper?

When Jesus instituted the Lord’s supper in Matthew 26:28, which represented His shed blood for the remission of our sins, He declared: “For this is my blood of the new testament [diathēkē], which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”

Jesus was here speaking here about His death! The Greek word here “testament” is diathēkē meaning covenant or testament. The shedding of His blood, which expressly secured “the remission of sins” for His elect, constituted “the new covenant.”

1 Corinthians 11:24-26: “And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament [diathēkē or covenant] in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.”

Believers are asked to remember the Lord's death – which is “the new testament [diathēkē or covenant] in [His] blood” – until He returns. “The new covenant” is here identified with “the Lord's death.” There is no way around it.

This is an ongoing demand.

The vicarious death of Christ, and the shedding of His blood, saw the complete fulfilment of the old covenant arrangement and the instigation of new covenant. Nothing else! Calvary secured it all! Jesus cried out “It is finished” in John 19:30. This is taken from the lone Greek word tetélestai. This means completed, executed, concluded, discharged (as in a debt). It also means paid in full or accomplished.

What was paid in full or accomplished? The penalty and punishment for your sin. It has been wonderfully and eternally paid for!

For the most part I agree with all you are saying. However it really has no bearing on the point we are discussing. None of that precludes a future fulfillment of God's promises to Israel.

Regarding Hebrews 8:13, it'd help if you'd look for the meaning of the various Greek verbs tenses I've mentioned many times now. It'd better facilitate a logical discussion.

 

[Rich R]

Stop avoiding! Reveal the future tenses in the texts. I will not hold my breath.

You could have stopped holding you breath a long time ago had you looked at what I've said many times about those tenses. I even suggested you verify what I said. I told you that's be easy to do. It appears you've chosen not to do that. In other words you are the one avoiding.

 

[The Light]

My post was, "So why dont' we see lions laying with lambs, or children playing with asps? I've not seen even one single ICBM has being made into a plowshare."

How is that condescending at at all, let alone condescending nonsense? Also, where in that post did you see me saying anything about tenses? You have a habit of accusing me of ignoring your posts. I think the evidence shows that It's more like you are ignoring my posts.

LOL. Didn't take you long to catch on. You could answer every single post, and he would cry that you have avoided answering.

Basically, that's all he has in his tool bag.

 

[rwb]

I finally get it!

My mistake all along was taking all your posts literally. Now I understand all your posts have really been allegorically. I can see the hidden meaning there; you now agree with everything I've said. You say that Isaiah should be read spiritually, but now I understand that you really mean it should be understood for what it clearly says, i.e. literally, and thus agree with what I think.

Of course I'm being facetious here. But you should get my point. If we don't read what's written, just taking the words for what they clearly say, there is no end as to where we might end up. One's own imagination becomes the arbitrator of truth. We no longer use the scriptures as that arbitrator.

I understand your dilemma, Rich! As Paul has written some things remain foolishness to you, because these things are spiritually discerned. Natural man, which in your particular case I believe you to be preoccupied with the flesh, cannot understand the things of God that might only be understood by spiritual man.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Matthew 16:23 (KJV) But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Romans 8:4-5 (KJV) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

 

[rwb]

That's what you said in post 288.

I said that it did vanish away in 70 AD.

You replied with lions, lambs, and asps i.e. your millennium.

What does your millennium have to do with 70 AD?

In his millennial kingdom, he will not believe until he physically sees lions and lambs laying together in harmony!

 

[covenantee]

In his millennial kingdom, he will not believe until he physically sees lions and lambs laying together in harmony!

Yeah. But the closest to that is
"the calf and the young lion and the fatling together".

No lambs there.

He's a false prophet again.

 

[Keraz]

Hello @Keraz,

The words you use (quote), 'with a spiritual new heaven and earth.' makes the new earth sound ethereal and insubstantial, can you please explain what you mean by spiritual in this case.

I was referring to the Eternal state, that will come as described in Revelation 21 to 22
The new heavens and earth will be spiritual entities, not physical, as they will exist forever.

But the time of the Millennium reign of King Jesus, will still be physical, as there will still be death, Isaiah 65:20, and procreation.
It will be as it was in the beginning, a perfect world of God's Creation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You might want to amend that to say, "At least Amillennialist recognize the assumed symbolic context of the Book of Revelation and the apocalyptic genre."

LOL. Yes, there clearly is no symbolism in the book of Revelation. Well, maybe just a little. The fact that it was purposely "signified" (Rev 1:1) can just be ignored, of course. Right?