When did the 2nd temple literally initially cease being the holy place?

[Zao is life]

I don't see where any of the apostles teach, we are to flee to the mountains when we see His return Day approaching?

How would we know what the DAY is in order to flee away? This is what many cults have done. Makes no sense, as no one of us knows what that Day or Hour is. And why flee? The destruction is not coming for us, Christ's return He raptures us to Himself. One will be taken another left, etc... as in a sudden destruction to come.

Luke 21

The Coming of the Son of Man​

25 “And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 26 men’s hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

The idea is we are to be watching for and waiting on the Master's return. So when we see signs, we are to expect His return is closer. Look up to heaven for that is from where our salvation comes from that terrible time.

Nothing for us to flee from. We wait with earnest expectation.

Hebrews 9
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for (our) salvation.

The disciples (Christians) in Judea who are alive when He comes certainly might need to flee. Zechariah 14, October 7th 2023 and even Luke 21:20-24 could easily be likened to what might happen if "they" ever manage to get through or over or under the borders in their masses, and start attacking Jerusalem. "They" and all who support them will never stop being intent on it, and they are relentless in their pursuit. Absolutely relentless.

Not everything has to pertain to those Christians who are nowhere near Judea when the Lord returns - especially if Zechariah 14 has never actually taken place yet, and is still going to take place. (Notice I said if, because I'm speculating).

Notice how everything I have said now, is speculation. I'm not saying "this is what's going to happen". What I'm saying is that there is a list of possible scenarios, and for sure, Jesus was referring to TYPES when he mentioned Noah, Lot, etc.

What I do not believe is true is that the AoD of Mat.24:15 was referring to a holy place that was not a holy place, which the disciples had for decades been preaching was no longer the holy place. There is no reason why Jesus would have called the AD70 Jerusalem temple "the holy place".

 

[Dave Watchman]

I fully understand what you are saying. Though I don't know of course, I wonder sometimes if the real timing for Luke 21:20-24 isn't the same as the time of Zechariah 14. God knows all things before all time, so possibly Jesus meant that to be a sign for two separate periods. (Notice I used the words "wonder" and "maybe" because I don't know).

Yes Luke 21:20-24 was for sure about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. It's written in the style, or architecture of a day of the Lord prophecy like Zechariah 14. Those types of prophecies can shift though time. John MacArthur calls them near/far prophecies. In Luke 21 Jesus begins with our end times, then shifts at verse 12: "But before all this", and switches back to the first century end times. Then at verse 25 swaps back to our end times again.

What I don't believe is that the AoD of Matthew 24:15 had anything to do with the temple in Jerusalem in AD70. The disciples had been going around Judea and the entire Roman Empire for decades telling people that God does not dwell in temples made with hands, and calling the church the temple of God.

Jesus was speaking to His disciples, so why would He have called the temple in Jerusalem to be destroyed in AD70 the holy place, after calling His body the Temple, and calling the Jerusalem temple "your house" when telling the Jewish leaders in that temple that it was going to be left to them desolate (Matthew 23:38)? (Before this Jesus had called it "God's house", saying that they had turned it into a den of thieves. So why the change to "your house" unless He knew it was no longer "God's house"?)

This is a great way to word it. Like the process of elimination. How could a den a thieves be a holy place?

This guy mentioned it too:

When Jesus declared, your house is left into you desolate. That was the final time Jesus was in the temple, making it holy.

We rest our case. Now it's like the Art Doyle quote:

"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Zao is life]

Yes Luke 21:20-24 was for sure about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. It's written in the style, or architecture of a day of the Lord prophecy like Zechariah 14. Those types of prophecies can shift though time. John MacArthur calls them near/far prophecies. In Luke 21 Jesus begins with our end times, then shifts at verse 12: "But before all this", and switches back to the first century end times. Then at verse 25 swaps back to our end times again.

This is a great way to word it. Like the process of elimination. How could a den a thieves be a holy place?

This guy mentioned it too:


We rest our case. Now it's like the Art Doyle quote:

"Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.

Peaceful Sabbath.

Agreed. And I like the way both yourself and Dr MacArthur put this (and again, I agree):

Yes Luke 21:20-24 was for sure about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. It's written in the style, or architecture of a day of the Lord prophecy like Zechariah 14. Those types of prophecies can shift though time. John MacArthur calls them near/far prophecies.

 

[Scott Downey]

I pretty much agree with what you say and insinuate with the OP. Including Luke 17 is the way to do it. Luke takes the thing which is the Abomination from Matthew 24, and puts it in his Chapter 17. After the mention of the "days of Lot", we get those same instructions to head for the hills.

That second temple ceased to be a holy place when the curtain was rent. And there's not going to be another holy place built with human hands, where an abomination stands. Holy place is also: "where it ought not to be. A place where it ought not to be. Me and a couple other guys think we figured this out on another forum a while back. But we could still be wrong. But I doubt it. I think I already posted a picture of the holy place in this thread, it's not what the majority thinks.

I ran across a potential holy place around that second temple, even from when the curtain was rent, until 70AD when the Romans destroyed the place. And even though it's not the one Jesus was talking about in the Olivet, I hate to give the preterists any ammunition.

Because when God does a thing, the thing itself becomes holy. Not that the thing is inherently holy in and of itself.

This is a case where the ground, the earth itself, can become holy, a holy place, when God tells Moses to take off his sandals in the presence of God..

“Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.”​

Again with Joshua and the Commander of the Lord's Army.

When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, “Are you for us, or for our adversaries?” And he said, “No; but I am the commander of the army of the Lord. Now I have come.” And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him,​

​

“What does my lord say to his servant?” And the commander of the Lord’s army said to Joshua, “Take off your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.” And Joshua did so.​

The place where you are standing is holy. My favorite. I hope they can replay this on video, that must have been an awesome sight.

Another example from 70AD Jerusalem where the earth, the land itself, could be considered a holy place.

"The pasturelands of the cities, which you shall give to the Levites, shall reach from the wall of the city outward a thousand cubits all around. - Numbers 35:4​

The Levites being the Priestly Tribe didn't get a land inheritance. They still needed a place for their gardening and animal grazing. So God gave them the land, the earth, from 1500 feet around the outside perimeter walls of the Old City of Jerusalem. Would it be a stretch to call that land a holy place? It's the same ground the Romans would have had to stand on when they set up their various sieges. Standing where they ought not to be.

I read our end time Abomination and holy place similar to these examples. Where a "place" prepared by God, by default, becomes a holy place.

"But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.​

Seems to me in the New Covenant, there is no holy ground anywhere anymore. A holy place is where God dwells or appears, and after God leaves, it is no longer holy. But God's people God says are Holy to Him.
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1 Cor 3
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

17 If anyone [b]defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.
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Any rebuilt temple of God like the Jews desire to do, is never going to be a holy place of God where God dwells.
You cannot have an abomination that makes desolate sitting or standing in that 'holy place' as it is not holy today.

Satan cannot take possession of the people of God who are His dwelling place. Satan can definitely cause depression and evil thoughts. People can hear spirits speak. The most I might consider is Satan coming into the church to set himself up as a false christ. So then Satan would be among the true people of God, but possessing the false brethren. Before the end, Christ warned to beware of false Christ working wonders to deceive if possible, the elect. This idea seems to fit in well enough with 2 Thess 2 phrasing of the power of Satan. Peter warns there will be false teachers among you.
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Matthew 24
23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

2 Thess 2
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Peter 2
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

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When the Lord descended onto the mountain, the entire mountain became holy. When He left, was no longer holy, but surely the people for years after likely considered it a holy mountain.

10 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes. 11 And let them be ready for the third day. For on the third day the Lord will come down upon Mount Sinai in the sight of all the people. 12 You shall set bounds for the people all around, saying, ‘Take heed to yourselves that you do not go up to the mountain or touch its base. Whoever touches the mountain shall surely be put to death. 13 Not a hand shall touch him, but he shall surely be stoned or shot with an arrow; whether man or beast, he shall not live.’ When the trumpet sounds long, they shall come near the mountain.”

14 So Moses went down from the mountain to the people and sanctified the people, and they washed their clothes. 15 And he said to the people, “Be ready for the third day; do not come near your wives.”

16 Then it came to pass on the third day, in the morning, that there were thunderings and lightnings, and a thick cloud on the mountain; and the sound of the trumpet was very loud, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled. 17 And Moses brought the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Now Mount Sinai was completely in smoke, because the Lord descended upon it in fire. Its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and [c]the whole mountain quaked greatly. 19 And when the blast of the trumpet sounded long and became louder and louder, Moses spoke, and God answered him by voice. 20 Then the Lord came down upon Mount Sinai, on the top of the mountain. And the Lord called Moses to the top of the mountain, and Moses went up.

21 And the Lord said to Moses, “Go down and warn the people, lest they break through to gaze at the Lord, and many of them perish. 22 Also let the priests who come near the Lord consecrate themselves, lest the Lord break out against them.”

 

[Zao is life]

I think I see what you are saying. But the old covenant was comprised of three sections. We have the 10 commandments - which is the moral law of God. We have the religious laws which I believe might be the 603 laws of the 613, and finally, we have the ceremonial laws such as the animal sacrifices,, the 7 feastivals, etc.

So, the only ones we are indeed bound to keep are God 10 commandments. The Passover, unleaven bread, etc. have all been fulfilled by Jesus. We are not requried to keep the Jewish eating laws (Kosher), etc.

The 10 commandments are the only laws, practices, ceremonies, etc., that were relevant before the cross that must remain and keep. These are God's laws, the others were established / set up as a shadow of the coming Messiah to fulfill. Jesus certainly kept all of His Father's laws but He never would think to do away with them.

The 10 commandments are only a shadow of God's holiness and righteousness. The 10 commandments are not God.

The Spirit of Christ produces the real fruit of God, not human endeavors to obey any part of the law given to Moses, including the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments fall under the two commandments: To love God with all of heart, mind, soul and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Christ did that.

He fulfilled the law.

And He told US to abide in Him because He is the life (of God), the Vine that produces the fruit of the Spirit, and without Him we can do nothing.

So our human endeavor to obey the ten commandments will always bring only death to us because unless we are abiding in Him and He in us and unless the fruit we produce is the fruit of the Spirit, our obedience to the shadow of God's holiness and righteousness will cause us to be indicted for sin, and the wages of sin is death.

The 10 commandments are a shadow of God's holiness and righteousness, and we are not God. Christ is God, and He is the last Adam, the Son of man who fulfilled the law by dying for us, because "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13), and He was not just any man, but the sinless Son of God.

Without faith in Christ the 10 commandments are the letter of the law that kills. Through faith in Christ the fruit of the Spirit fulfills the law. Jesus did not tell us to abide in Him and obey the ten commandments. He told us to abide in Him.

 

[CTK]

The 10 commandments are only a shadow of God's holiness and righteousness. The 10 commandments are not God.

The Spirit of Christ produces the real fruit of God, not human endeavors to obey any part of the law given to Moses, including the 10 commandments. The 10 commandments fall under the two commandments: To love God with all of heart, mind, soul and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

Christ did that.

He fulfilled the law.

And He told US to abide in Him because He is the life (of God), the Vine that produces the fruit of the Spirit, and without Him we can do nothing.

So our human endeavor to obey the ten commandments will always bring only death to us because unless we are abiding in Him and He in us and unless the fruit we produce is the fruit of the Spirit, our obedience to the shadow of God's holiness and righteousness will cause us to be indicted for sin, and the wages of sin is death.

The 10 commandments are a shadow of God's holiness and righteousness, and we are not God. Christ is God, and He is the last Adam, the Son of man who fulfilled the law by dying for us, because "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13), and He was not just any man, but the sinless Son of God.

Without faith in Christ the 10 commandments are the letter of the law that kills. Through faith in Christ the fruit of the Spirit fulfills the law. Jesus did not tell us to abide in Him and obey the ten commandments. He told us to abide in Him.

(John 16:5–16)

15If you love Me, you will keepe My commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocatef to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.g 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19In a little while the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.”


Let me ask you a question... which of the 10 do you believe are not to be honored or kept? And take the 1st commandment if you will. Are we to no longer obey it? Jesus did indeed fulfill the law... but He Himself said, "

Matthew 5:17-20

17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Davy]

I thought you attempting to divert, but if not that’s fine.

It appears to me that you are working very hard to try to disprove a possible fulfillment in the past when these very events that took place could be a type or foreshadow that shed insight into what may happen in the future.

I know the Luke 23:28-30 prophecy Jesus quoted from Isaiah 54 has NOT YET taken place. That's easy to know simply because their saying for the mountains to "Fall on us", and for the hills to "Cover us" is specifically... a LAST DAY OF THIS WORLD EVENT. That's why I showed the relevant last day Bible Scripture like the 6th SEAL of Rev.6 when they will say that at the end of this world.

But if you'd rather listen to men's stupid doctrines of Preterism that believes 99% of Bible prophecy was already fulfilled in 70 A.D., when it was not, then go to, stay deceived by listening to those idiots.

 

[ewq1938]

What I do not believe is true is that the AoD of Mat.24:15 was referring to a holy place that was not a holy place, which the disciples had for decades been preaching was no longer the holy place. There is no reason why Jesus would have called the AD70 Jerusalem temple "the holy place".

It was just a shadow of what is to come. Your argument proves it was not the actual fulfillment at that time.

 

[Zao is life]

(John 16:5–16)

15If you love Me, you will keepe My commandments. 16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocatef to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.g 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19In a little while the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.”


Let me ask you a question... which of the 10 do you believe are not to be honored or kept? And take the 1st commandment if you will. Are we to no longer obey it? Jesus did indeed fulfill the law... but He Himself said, "

Matthew 5:17-20

17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.​

You miss the point Jesus made by telling us to abide in the vine so that we can produce the fruit of the Spirit.

You miss the point completely.
​

Did Jesus and John highlight one commandment, or sum up all the commandments in that one commandment?:

If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love. This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13 & 12-13.

And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1 John 3:22-24.

​

Romans 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

This is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Does the fruit of the Spirit not produce a living out of (fulfilling) the 10 commandments, which 10 commandments are only a shadow of the holiness of God? What is the fruit of the Spirit? (Hint: The fruit of the Spirit is not the gifts of the Spirit).
​

You will never love your brothers the way Christ loved you before this body of sin has died or been changed into a spiritual body by obeying the 10 commandments, so don't go down that route. It will condemn you, because you will fail. That testimony (the 10 commandments) inside the ark of the covenant in the Old Covenant Temple was a testimony against us all (because none of us could obey them, perfectly). Abide in Christ and believe Him when He says that without the Spirit of God in you (without Christ in you), you can do nothing.

​

"Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:4-5.

Paul lists the kind of things the fruit of the Spirit produces, saying that against such things, there is no law. Paul says that all the commandments are fulfilled in one law: You shall love your neighbor as yourself". What do you think Jesus and John meant by naming His commandment?

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

But you say: "The fruit of the Spirit is obedience to the 10 commandments". (OR "Obedience to the 10 commandments will produce the fruit of the Spirit").

It's good to point people to Christ instead of pointing them to the 10 commandments the way you are doing, because the 10 commandments are there for our instruction to lead us to Christ, because we cannot obey them without the Spirit producing Christ's fruit through us, through Christ in us (no matter how much anyone imagines he can, or does). The 10 commandments are only a shadow of the holiness of God, and obedience to the 10 commandments instead of living by faith in Christ will never get anyone fulfilling the 10 commandments. Jesus gave us one commandment that fulfills all the law, and told us to abide in Him so that His Spirit can produce that fruit through us (cause us to produce the fruit of the Spirit).

 

[Davidpt]

You cannot have an abomination that makes desolate sitting or standing in that 'holy place' as it is not holy today.

You're thinking like I am. The same logic would be true for the 2nd temple, obviously. To use some of your same words 'You cannot have an abomination that makes desolate sitting or standing in that 'holy place' as it is not holy 40 years after Christ died and rose'. What was your position again, pertaining to what you take the holy place to be involving in Matthew 24:15? Does your position agree with what I quoted you saying, or does it contradict what you said?

 

[Stumpmaster]

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Understand, by holy place, the city of Jerusalem is meant.

Albert Barnes Commentary on Matthew 24:15
The abomination of desolation - This is a Hebrew expression, meaning an abominable or hateful destroyer. The Gentiles were all held in abomination by the Jews, Act_10:28. The abomination of desolation means the Roman army, and is so explained by Luk_21:20. The Roman army is further called the “abomination” on account of the images of the emperor, and the eagles, carried in front of the legions, and regarded by the Romans with divine honors.
Spoken of by Daniel the prophet - Dan_9:26-27; Dan_11:31; Dan_12:11, see the notes at those passages.
Standing in the holy place - Mark says, standing where it ought not,” meaning the same thing. All Jerusalem was esteemed “holy,” Mat_4:5. The meaning of this is, when you see the Roman armies standing in the holy city or encamped around the temple, or the Roman ensigns or standards in the temple. Josephus relates that when the city was taken, the Romans brought their idols into the temple, and placed them over the eastern gate, and sacrificed to them there, “Jewish Wars,” b. 6 chapter 6, section 1.
Whoso readeth ... - This seems to be a remark made by the evangelist to direct the attention of the reader particularly to the meaning of the prophecy by Daniel.

 

[Scott Downey]

You're thinking like I am. The same logic would be true for the 2nd temple, obviously. To use some of your same words 'You cannot have an abomination that makes desolate sitting or standing in that 'holy place' as it is not holy 40 years after Christ died and rose'. What was your position again, pertaining to what you take the holy place to be involving in Matthew 24:15? Does your position agree with what I quoted you saying, or does it contradict what you said?

That abomination phrase is only used twice in my bible in the New Testament when I search for it and is only in regard to Jewish temples, not 2 Thess 2.
2 Thessalonians 2 is not the abomination that makes desolate event.

Couple other 'holy place' mentions, having to do with the Jewish temple in Jerusalem.

Acts 21:28
crying out, “Men of Israel, help! This is the man who teaches all men everywhere against the people, the law, and this place; and furthermore he also brought Greeks into the temple and has defiled this holy place.”

Acts 6
12 And they stirred up the people, the elders, and the scribes; and they came upon him, seized him, and brought him to the council. 13 They also set up false witnesses who said, “This man does not cease to speak [a]blasphemous words against this holy place and the law; 14 for we have heard him say that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs which Moses delivered to us.”

Scripture above is right before Steven was martyred, how prescient of them as it was true.

I accept its usage by Christ as referring to the certain coming destruction of that second temple and Jerusalem.

Jesus is referring to a historical event from the past recorded in Daniel 11 of a coming destruction that is assuredly going to happen like it did before and did occur in 70 AD. Jesus is making a comparison here.

Matthew 24 :1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”
.
Mark 13:14
“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Matthew 24:15
“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),

A prior historical event is going to be repeated

Harkening back to Soloman's temple which was also eventually utterly destroyed and the site plowed as a field.

Daniel 11 here is historical, it happened, compare to the coming destruction in 70AD. Christians also did suffer and many Jews died.

29 “At the appointed time he shall return and go toward the south; but it shall not be like the former or the latter. 30 For ships from [m]Cyprus shall come against him; therefore he shall be grieved, and return in rage against the holy covenant, and do damage.

“So he shall return and show regard for those who forsake the holy covenant. 31 And [n]forces shall be mustered by him, and they shall defile the sanctuary fortress; then they shall take away the daily sacrifices, and place there the abomination of desolation. 32 Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall [o]corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits. 33 And those of the people who understand shall instruct many; yet for many days they shall fall by sword and flame, by captivity and plundering.

The Jewish temple of that time in 70AD being desecrated by Roman idols and idol sacrifices for the Jews of that time still considered their temple the holy place even though it no longer actually is a holy place to God, refer to Acts verse above in my post. That temple was holy to Jews and still holy to Jews, it is not holy to me or normal Christians today. Likely the Jewish Christians 2000 years ago may have thought of it as a holy place. Look at how the early Jewish Christians had to be taught to not obey the law of Moses, Jewish customs or be circumcised as relevant any longer, example Acts 15.

Ask yourself, was Daniel's Soloman's Jewish temple actually a holy place when it had idols setup and desecrated and it was destroyed completely by the Babylonians later on.

And fleeing is a literal thing to do for that time as the Romans were there to destroy that city, and that is what the Christians did, they left.

That does not mean all of Matthew 24 or Mark 13 is fulfilled in 70AD, just partially

Jesus is comparing what will happen to the second temple to a historical even of what happened to the first temple, Soloman's temple.

 

[Dave Watchman]

I'm going to try an out of the box method to explain it. A method where I don't need to post the empirical, or 3 walls of text on the thread. Lol.

Mark 13:14
“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Standing where it ought not. Standing where it does not belong. Standing where it should not be. We can probably skip the "holy" place for a while. As soon as we see the word "holy" it tends to provoke a preconditioned response. Take the sandals off your feet is the better one. The place where you are standing is holy ground.

That abomination phrase is only used twice in my bible in the New Testament when I search for it and is only in regard to Jewish temples, not 2 Thess 2.
2 Thessalonians 2 is not the abomination that makes desolate event.

Couple other 'holy place' mentions, having to do with the Jewish temple in Jerusalem.

“And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.​

The 1290 days are the empirical.

A prior historical event is going to be repeated

Matthew 24:15 is a thing that happens prior to Jesus's second coming. This is something very different. There's no historical comparison. Jesus' disciples in the 1st century couldn't understand it. (Let The Reader Understand)

This would be like watching a black and white TV show of Leave it to Beaver from the 50's, and a man walks in dressed as a woman with high heels and eye makeup. Standing where it ought not to be.

Seems to me in the New Covenant, there is no holy ground anywhere anymore. A holy place is where God dwells or appears, and after God leaves, it is no longer holy. But God's people God says are Holy to Him.

Jesus also said that wherever two or more are gathered in My name, I am in the midst of them. God is there. God is here.

Any rebuilt temple of God like the Jews desire to do, is never going to be a holy place of God where God dwells.
You cannot have an abomination that makes desolate sitting or standing in that 'holy place' as it is not holy today.

I agree. It's not a rebuilt temple. And it's not going to be "holy" just because todays Jews in physical Israel consider it to be so.

"For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them. - Jesus​

Many people are surprised to learn that the United States Capitol regularly served as a church building; a practice that began even before Congress officially moved into the building and lasted until well after the Civil War.​

​

Significantly, the Capitol building had been used as a church even for years before it was occupied by Congress. The cornerstone for the Capitol had been laid on September 18, 1793; two years later while still under construction, the July 2, 1795, Federal Orrery newspaper of Boston reported:​

City of Washington, June 19. It is with much pleasure that we discover the rising consequence of our infant city. Public worship is now regularly administered at the Capitol, every Sunday morning, at 11 o’clock by the Reverend Mr. Ralph. 2​

Jefferson was not the only President to attend church at the Capitol. His successor, James Madison, also attended church at the Capitol. 14 However, there was a difference in the way the two arrived for services. Observers noted that Jefferson arrived at church on horseback 15 (it was 1.6 miles from the White House to the Capitol). However, Madison arrived for church in a coach and four. In fact, British diplomat Augustus Foster, who attended services at the Capitol, gave an eloquent description of President Madison arriving at the Capitol for church in a carriage drawn by four white horses.​

Where 2 or 3 are gathered in Jesus' Name, this "place" was packed in like sardines. Excessively crowded and even wedged in, in Jesus' Name:

From Jefferson through Abraham Lincoln, many presidents attended church at the Capitol; and it was common practice for Members of Congress to attend those services. For example, in his diary entry of January 9, 1803, Congressman Cutler noted: “Attended in the morning at the Capitol. . . . Very full assembly. Many of the Members present.”

16 The church was often full “so crowded, in fact, one attendee reported that since “the floor of the House offered insufficient space, the platform behind the Speaker’s chair, and every spot where a chair could be wedged in” was filled. 17 U. S. Representative John Quincy Adams (although noting that occasionally the “House was full, but not crowded” 18) also commented numerous times on the overly-crowded conditions at the Capitol church. In his diary entry for February 28, 1841, he noted: “I rode with my wife, Elizabeth C. Adams, and Mary, to the Capitol, where the Hall of the House of Representatives was so excessively crowded that it was with extreme difficulty that we were enabled to obtain seats.” 19 Why did so many Members attend Divine service in the Hall of the House? Adams explained why he attended: “I consider it as one of my public duties- as a representative of the people- to give my attendance every Sunday morning when Divine service is performed in the Hall.” 20​

​

Church in the U.S. Capitol - WallBuilders

Many people are surprised to learn that the United States Capitol regularly served as a church building....

wallbuilders.com

The State Becomes the Church: Jefferson and Madison

It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four. Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.) As early as January 1806 a female evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and a "crowded audience." Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings.​

​

The Gospel was also preached in the Supreme Court chambers.​

​

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel06-2.html

When God does a thing the "thing" itself becomes holy, not that the thing is holy in and of itself. The "earth" has helped the "woman", in a "place" that was prepared by God..

Fast forward to the 2015 version of the "days of Lot", standing where it ought not to be:

In the Obama Nation, of desolation.

 

[Scott Downey]

We do have Christ distinguishing between the holy and the profane (common) when He says to render to each one what they own.

15 Then the Pharisees went and plotted how they might entangle Him in His talk. 16 And they sent to Him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, “Teacher, we know that You are true, and teach the way of God in truth; nor do You care about anyone, for You do not [c]regard the person of men. 17 Tell us, therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?”

18 But Jesus [d]perceived their wickedness, and said, “Why do you test Me, you hypocrites? 19 Show Me the tax money.”

So they brought Him a denarius.

20 And He said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?”

21 They said to Him, “Caesar’s.”

And He said to them, “Render[e] therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” 22 When they had heard these words, they marveled, and left Him and went their way.

There is no 'abomination that make desolate' past Christ's prophetic words regarding the destruction of the temple, it is not mentioned or taught afterwords by Him, in the apostles' doctrines or the revelation of John. It seems to me to be very specifically tied to the Jewish Temple and that nations worship of God, how they had to offer sacrifices only in Jerusalem and that place being desecrated and destroyed.

From web, definition and example
Desolation refers to the act or instance of desolating, the state of being desolate, or devastation and ruin. It can refer to the destruction or devastation of land, population, or community. For example, a drought that brings desolation to a region. The utter desolation of the Western Front during the war was captured in unforgettable photographs.

So think about how would that kind of desolation apply to the Jews. Since in the New Covenant we have, the living God lives inside of us. Jesus said He will never leave or forsake us, but God did leave and forsake those temple buildings, and the Old Covenant also did God disregard for the much better new one, cause the Jews broke His Covenant. As believers, we cannot experience an abomination of desolation unless we are false brethren who depart from God. Which we are not if we truly belong to Him and sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Christ in Matthew 24 warned us like this

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

***************
Break, all of the above is applicable for our world now, v14 did not happen in their time
v15 was applicable for them, the disciples, in their near to come future time of the Romans destruction
***************

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
****************
break
Perhaps 21 is their time or our future time, but it was definitely the worst time ever would be for Jerusalem with the Roman destruction.

v22 Why is God saving flesh in the second coming? We are changed, our flesh is not inheriting the world to come.
But yes, saving flesh alive was important around AD70 for the sake of spreading of the gospel to the nations before the return of Christ
The elect are the believers in Christ here, the church which did escape as they left Jerusalem before the Roman destruction

v23, back to the far off future time
These lying wonders to deceive, 2 Thess 2, Revelation 13, false miracles of Satan
And as 2 Thess 2, when those evil lying wonders occur, the falling away of the false from the true church, Satan is revealed, Jesus returns.
****************

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Dave Watchman]

There is no 'abomination that make desolate' past Christ's prophetic words regarding the destruction of the temple, it is not mentioned or taught afterwords by Him, in the apostles' doctrines or the revelation of John.

That's because Jesus referred us to the Prophet Daniel. If you can read Daniel 12 as being eschatological:

"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,​

Some to everlasting life,​

Then the 1290 day deal has to be something to do with the second coming of Christ.
The next big elephant in the room is what is the "daily" taken away if it's not in any temple on earth. The KJ translators inserted the word: "sacrifice".

Answer: It's at the alter of incense in Heaven's Temple, the True Tent. It's that scene from Revelation 8 when the censer is cast down.

v22 Why is God saving flesh in the second coming?

You answered it yourself. If all flesh is taken, nobody would be left alive to be changed in the blink of an eye. Two women grinding at the mill. KJV says: "two men in one bed". Hello? Maybe the disciples DID know what Jesus was talking about.

"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed;​

the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.​

 

[Scott Downey]

That's because Jesus referred us to the Prophet Daniel. If you can read Daniel 12 as being eschatological:

"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,​

Some to everlasting life,​

Then the 1290 day deal has to be something to do with the second coming of Christ.
The next big elephant in the room is what is the "daily" taken away if it's not in any temple on earth. The KJ translators inserted the word: "sacrifice".

Answer: It's at the alter of incense in Heaven's Temple, the True Tent. It's that scene from Revelation 8 when the censer is cast down.


You answered it yourself. If all flesh is taken, nobody would be left alive to be changed in the blink of an eye. Two women grinding at the mill. KJV says: "two men in one bed". Hello? Maybe the disciples DID know what Jesus was talking about.

"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed;​

the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.​

The ones taken though are taken away to destruction. Just as when the flood came and washed them all away and Noah inherited the earth, so shall we inherit God's new earth He will make for us.
They will all be dead, all who do not know God, and who do not obey the gospel, Christ will destroy them in flaming fire when He returns.

Matthew 24
26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.


Before that increasingly evil time, we shall long for Christ to return and won't see it, as the time for the harvest of souls, to reap the earth is not yet ripe. Some are reaped like the wheat and saved to shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father, and some like the tares are reaped to be burnt in the fire.

Meaning it will be an awful time to come, that we will experience troubling times.
Rev 14

Reaping the Earth’s Harvest​

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come [j]for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Reaping the Grapes of Wrath​

17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred [k]furlongs.



Luke 17 KJV
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

32 Remember Lot's wife.

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the (dead) body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together. (to feed on their corpse, so we can understand they are dead, the great supper of God)
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Quite the language is used as an illustration of the fate of the wicked.

Isaiah 66
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

*****************
All of this was written for us in a way we can understand for our edification. We are not in heaven yet. We are down here living for now in flesh and blood bodies.

 

[CTK]

That's because Jesus referred us to the Prophet Daniel. If you can read Daniel 12 as being eschatological:

"And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,​

Some to everlasting life,​

Then the 1290 day deal has to be something to do with the second coming of Christ.
The next big elephant in the room is what is the "daily" taken away if it's not in any temple on earth. The KJ translators inserted the word: "sacrifice".

Answer: It's at the alter of incense in Heaven's Temple, the True Tent. It's that scene from Revelation 8 when the censer is cast down.


You answered it yourself. If all flesh is taken, nobody would be left alive to be changed in the blink of an eye. Two women grinding at the mill. KJV says: "two men in one bed". Hello? Maybe the disciples DID know what Jesus was talking about.

"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed;​

the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.​

For what it is worth...

The AOD represents the rejection and crucifixion of our Messiah by His people. This would, of course, have many consequences:

1) From a phyical or literal way, the Temple would no longer serve to house the presence of God. It had fulfilled its mission in pointing to the coming Messiah. It is now a common structure.

2) In a spiritual manner, Jesus, as the Passover Lamb of God would do away with any need for further animal sacrifices. They too were a shadow of the coming Messiah.

3) The 1290 day and the 1335 day prophecies speak to the Messiah -His first coming addresses the 1290 days, while the 1335 days speaks to His return. If you look at the formula for the 1290 days, it requires one to identify two separate time points - the "set up" of the AOD, and the "taking away" of the daily sacrifice. The AOD is the first day of His ministry when He was baptized in the Jordan and the "taking away" of the daily is the cross - when His sacrifice would "do away" with any further need to animal sacrifices. This time period plus one small required adjustment will give us the 1290 days. Remember, Daniel is almost all about His first coming and the consequences from His death and resurrection. Chapter 12 merely touches on the end times...

4) God had given us the formular for His first coming - 1290 days so we will / can use that to determine the 1335 days at the end of time. But they all tie into Jesus - the start of His ministry, His crucifixion, Passove and the Day of Trumpets at the time of the end. It is all about Him,

5) Again, the AOD represents the most "abominable" act in the history of mankind and could never be seen again. This rejection would not only cause the physical elements to be cast down - the Temple in 70 AD, but His people would become spiritually desolate for the next 2000 years (time of the Gentiles).

6)Jesus Himself referenced the AOD prophecy in Matthew and Mark. He was the AOD "standing in the holy place" (Temple), while in Mark, He was "standing where He ought not be" (Temple) because as a servant (Mark speaks about Jesus as a servant), a servant has no place to be found in the Temple. Matthew speaks of Jesus as the Messiah, our King, our High Priest who does belong in the Temple.

7) The passage in Matthew 24:22 is not speaking about the end times but also about Jesus. Jesus would spend 3.5 years teaching, preaching the Word of God during His first coming. He would perform perhaps thousands of miracles in front of everyone - from feeding the 4000 and 5000 thousand, to healing the blind, to raising the dead, He would reveal His power over creation to all. Despite them witnessing all of these miracles as well as speaking with authority - like no other, they would still reject Him. He could have continued to perform those miracles for another 40 years and it still would not have changed their hard hearts. Consequently, God's plan of salvation would include the cross in the "midst of the week." And this is where verse 22 comes into play - Jesus would "willingly" give us His life for the sin of all. He would obey His Father's commands to go to the cross. Thus, Jesus, would "shorten those days," - meaning, He would be cut off before the end of the last week and offer Himself as God's perfect sacrifice. If He did not go to the cross, then no flesh would be saved. This all speaks of His mission. The last week of the 70 weeks of years prophecy (last 7 years) were "set aside" for Jesus to fulfill His God given mission. But He willingly cut those days to go to the cross for the salvation of all mankind - those who would put their faith in Him. No amount of miracles, no matter how long would have turned the hearts of the people to Him... Now we have a means to return back to the Garden with Him - if we believe He was / is the Messiah and believe He died on the cross for us, then we will be saved. This is the only means of "the flesh being saved."

8) The AOD cannot refer to a building, the Temple, the city, etc. Those things had already been completely destroyed by Nebuchadnezar. But God would put a plan into place for their complete restoration (70 weeks of years prophecy). God would need everything to be fully restored before His coming so He could fulfill all of the ceremonial laws established in Leviticus. He would do away with the Temple, the animal sacrifices, the Priestly system, the first 4 festivals, etc. - they were all a type and shadow of His coming. Now, after the cross, they have no longer value... their mission within His plan has been fulfilled.

It is absolutely impossible to address everything in Daniel and the related verses in the NT that speak to His plan of salvation and how the verses speak of Him... As soon as one new interpretation is offered, it raises 10 more questions that must be answered because almost 90 % of "today's accepted interpretations" of Daniel are incorrect - either because they focus on the physical / historical events in our history or they are sent some 2000 years in the future because so many verses do not match up to the events in our history books. The only way to interpret Daniel is to try and see how the prophecies in Daniel speak to the Messiah and His plan of restoration / salvation - that is why He came....and Daniel is focused on Him. Only in chapter 12 does Daniel speak generally about the end times - because God has left that to the Book of Revelation. And unless Daniel is properly interpreted - focusing on Jesus' first coming and all that He accomplished, Revelation cannot be interpreted - and it hasn't to this day. Despite all the 1000's of books on both Daniel and Revelation, there is no consensus of opinion - in fact, their interpretions are all over the place.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What we need to take note of is where Jesus placed in Matthew 24 what He said in Luke 17. Pertaining to Luke 17:31-33, He placed that during great tribulation. Pertaining to what He said in Luke 17 involving 'and the flood came, and destroyed them all', Jesus placed that involving His 2nd coming. IOW, only pertaining to great tribulation does it involve anyone fleeing. The point is, what's recorded in Luke 17 has to be interpreted in light of where Jesus placed these events in Matthew 24. In Matthew 24 He did not place verses 17-18, also meaning verses 31-33 in Luke 17, during that of verse 39 in Mathew 24. Preterists and maybe even pretribbers, might argue otherwise. Except most of us posting in this thread are neither of those.

Do you plan on ever explaining why Jesus said that fleeing to the mountains would be particularly difficult for pregnant women and nursing mothers and why it would be more difficult to flee in the winter or on the Sabbath? Or do you think you don't need to do that and we should just take your word for it that Jesus meant those things in a non-literal way somehow?

 

[Davidpt]

Understand, by holy place, the city of Jerusalem is meant.

BTW, what I said in regards to Acts 6:13 below, that does not apply to you nor your view. I'm attempting to kill 2 birds with one stone, so to speak. That being, the holy place isn't meaning the city of Jerusalem in Matthew 24:15 nor is it meaning the 2nd temple.

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

This verse aside since it is the verse in question.

Acts 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:

Holy place isn't meaning Jesusalem here.

(BTW, those that insist the holy place was the 2nd temple in Matthew 24:15 also agree with the Jews here that the 2nd temple was still the holy place after Christ died and rose. Which then begs the question, why aren't these same interpreters also siding with the Jews when they said this--This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place? Probably because they disagree with the Jews about that part, thus are cherry picking what they disagree with the Jews here about. While some of the rest of us don't agree with the Jews here about any of these things. IOW, we don't need to cherry pick anything here. )

Acts 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

Holy place isn't meaning Jesusalem here.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Holy place isn't meaning Jesusalem here.

Hebrews 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others

Holy place isn't meaning Jesusalem here.

It stands to reason then, if none of those other verses are meaning the city of Jerusalem then neither is the holy place meaning the city in Matthew 24:15.

 

[Davidpt]

"I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed;​

the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.​

If your point perhaps has to do with homosexuality, the fact you put 'men' in bold letters, I don't see that making sense of the text based on what this part says---the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. One of those is something good that you would hope to happen to you, the other isn't. IOW, there is no such thing as practicing homosexuals that are saved. All of this assuming homosexuality was your point. But if it wasn't, everything I submitted here is moot in that case.