The Root question of Amillenial vs Premillenial

[Rich R]

I actually think he is able to lie to himself in an attempt to protect an unscriptural doctrine.


It seems more about doctrine than righteousness to me. Leading others from truth with his antics doesn't sit well. Stop with the false cries of avoidance when there is none. Stop claims that no scripture was provided when there is. I wish he would stop the trolling and just present scripture. Become a man.

The problem is that it's getting harder to find examples of a real man in the modern West. confused

 

[Rich R]

What many promises despite Israel's disobedience are you referring to?

The ones in the OT after Joshua.

The only promise of land and a Kingdom not yet completely fulfilled but has most assuredly has come shall be found by WHOSOEVER (Jew & Gentile together) is according to grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord. This promise is everlasting life on the new earth after this first earth has passed away. Why would Israel or anyone else settle for a small portion of land on this earth when according to grace through faith in Christ man will inherit the whole earth?

It's God's idea. Ask Him. You'd be much more likely to believe Him than me anyway.

 

[rwb]

Not sure where the Bible talks about humans having spiritual bodies in heaven. I see that about angels, but God made people earthlings.

The following verses speak of those who have part in the FIRST resurrection which is not physical, but is to be spiritually born again of His Spirit in us. When the body of saints dies we continue to be spiritual body of Christ in heaven after death, because in life before we died we had part in the resurrection life of Christ who is the "first resurrection" of the dead. We become as the angels of God in heaven, spiritual beings without physical form. Why? Because "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living". To prove there is life after physical death for those who have part in His resurrection life, Christ says that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob though dead are of the living.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Matthew 22:30-32 (KJV) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

 

[rwb]

The ones in the OT after Joshua.

It's God's idea. Ask Him. You'd be much more likely to believe Him than me anyway.

I see you cannot bring forth a single verse from Scripture to support your unbiblical doctrines!

 

[covenantee]

The problem is that it's getting harder to find examples of a real man in the modern West. confused

Yes, "modern" aptly and accurately describes the fallacies and fantasies of the Darby/Scofield dispensational futurism that you promulgate.

It was nonexistent in 17 centuries of historical orthodox true Christianity prior to the19th century.

You got that right.

 

[Zao is life]

Not sure where the Bible talks about humans having spiritual bodies in heaven. I see that about angels, but God made people earthlings.

The Bible doesn't talk about humans having spiritual "bodies" in heaven, and I agree. The only place the New Testament mentions a spiritual body is where Paul is describing the resurrected created human body.:

1 Corinthians 15:44:
"It is sown a body, natural [Greek: sōma psychikós], it is raised a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]. There is a body, natural [sōma psychikós], and there is a body, spiritual [sōma pneumatikós]."

The word psychikós is from the word psychḗ (soul / life / mind).
The word pneumatikós is from the word pneûma (spirit / breath).

The word pysche is used interchangeably in reference to the life, the mind and the soul of individuals in the New Testament precisely because humans were created to live on God's created earth, in a created body, and the mind/thoughts/emotions/soul = the life that exists with the body (soma) of each person - i.e the life/soul that became a living soul when God breathed (eternal) life into Adam.

Paul is teaching about the resurrection of the body from death when he states:

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." -- 1 Corinthians 15:26.

Death turns all of human experience and human existence into vanity, because:
​

"The dust shall return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit (Hebrew: ruach, Greek: pneuma)
shall return unto God who gave it.

Vanity of vanities, says the preacher; all is vanity."
-- Ecclesiastes 12:7-8.​

So death is described by Solomon in the above passage as the separation of the body and the spirit, but humans were created to live on God's created earth, in a created body, and the mind/thoughts/emotions/soul = the life that exists with the body (soma) of each person.

Paul links the resurrection of the dead in Christ to the return of Christ in 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18;

and explains how the dead will be raised in 1 Corinthians 15:35-57;

and explains what the resurrection of the dead is in 1 Corinthians 15:4-8 & 1 Corinthians 15:12-26.

In 1 Corinthians 15:51-57 Paul makes it abundantly clear that the resurrection of the dead is victory over death.

The resurrection of the body is an integral part of the gospel and there is a very long list of verses in the New Testament talking about it, but people have taken the fact that we have eternal life IN CHRIST (who alone has eternal life IN HIMSELF) and created a whole new concept from the simple biblical truth handed down to us.

The only body the human spirit has is the one we temporarily reside in - the one that will die because of sin - and until the resurrection those of us who die in Christ, who have eternal life IN CHRIST, will find ourselves conscious of our limbless spirits because our limbs will be in the grave. Nowhere does biblical scripture teach that God created humans with two bodies. He created humans to each have one body, one soul, and a spirit that is given eternal life IN CHRIST, being born of God.​

 

[Rich R]

I see you cannot bring forth a single verse from Scripture to support your unbiblical doctrines!

You should be able to find them yourself. I'll give you a hint. Start with Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. Let me know when you're done with that and I'll give you a few more to look at.

 

[Rich R]

The following verses speak of those who have part in the FIRST resurrection which is not physical, but is to be spiritually born again of His Spirit in us. When the body of saints dies we continue to be spiritual body of Christ in heaven after death, because in life before we died we had part in the resurrection life of Christ who is the "first resurrection" of the dead. We become as the angels of God in heaven, spiritual beings without physical form. Why? Because "God is not the God of the dead, but of the living". To prove there is life after physical death for those who have part in His resurrection life, Christ says that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob though dead are of the living.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Matthew 22:30-32 (KJV) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Yes, we will be raised from the dead.

 

[Rich R]

Yes, "modern" aptly and accurately describes the fallacies and fantasies of the Darby/Scofield dispensational futurism that you promulgate.

It was nonexistent in 17 centuries of historical orthodox true Christianity prior to the19th century.

You got that right.

Yes, for 17 centuries the orthodox church did align more with Plato than with the scriptures. It's something of a miracle that 19th theologians were able to dig through the error and get back to what Paul said.

 

[rwb]

You should be able to find them yourself. I'll give you a hint. Start with Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel. Let me know when you're done with that and I'll give you a few more to look at.

If you cannot prove what you allege why would anyone believe anything you say?

 

[rwb]

Yes, we will be raised from the dead.

All of the dead shall be raised in the hour coming, when the last/seventh trumpet sounds and time given this earth whereby mankind must be saved shall be no longer. That is one bodily resurrection for all the dead to either life or damnation.

 

[Rich R]

If you cannot prove what you allege why would anyone believe anything you say?

I specifically said a few times now, not to believe anything I said. Take the time to read the Bible and see what God says. If you still don't like it, take it up with Him.

 

[Rich R]

All of the dead shall be raised in the hour coming, when the last/seventh trumpet sounds and time given this earth whereby mankind must be saved shall be no longer. That is one bodily resurrection for all the dead to either life or damnation.

That's pretty close to the scriptures. I think close enough that God might give you a cigar!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

OK, finally I get it!

Hallelujah! But, how do I know you get it? Who cares. I'll just assume you do.

 

[rwb]

I specifically said a few times now, not to believe anything I said. Take the time to read the Bible and see what God says. If you still don't like it, take it up with Him.

I have done this Rich! That's why I know with complete confidence the doctrine you espouse is unbiblical!

 

[rwb]

That's pretty close to the scriptures. I think close enough that God might give you a cigar!

Not pretty close but IS from Scripture! I'm wondering if you have failed to notice this forum is for discussing the Bible, it is not about what sayeth Rich, but what sayeth the Scripture!!! How about proving through the Scriptures what you continue to allege???

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What many promises despite Israel's disobedience are you referring to?

The only promise of land and a Kingdom not yet completely fulfilled but has most assuredly has come shall be found by WHOSOEVER (Jew & Gentile together) is according to grace through faith in Christ Jesus our Lord. This promise is everlasting life on the new earth after this first earth has passed away. Why would Israel or anyone else settle for a small portion of land on this earth when according to grace through faith in Christ man will inherit the whole earth?

Exactly. I don't know why these premils insist on Israel inheriting a piece of land when scripture makes it clear that what God promises is for His people, which are Jew and Gentile believers, is the entire new earth. Why can't premils accept that God's promises for His people are even better than what people thought before? That's something to celebrate, but they insist on people inheriting something much less instead. It makes no sense.

 

[IndianaRob]

Exactly. I don't know why these premils insist on Israel inheriting a piece of land when scripture makes it clear that what God promises is for His people, which are Jew and Gentile believers, is the entire new earth. Why can't premils accept that God's promises for His people are even better than what people thought before? That's something to celebrate, but they insist on people inheriting something much less instead. It makes no sense.

Wrong again.

God promised Abraham and his descendants all the land that Abraham could see and and Abraham SOJOURNED IN THE LAND OF PROMISE looking for a city whose builder and maker was God.

Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

 

[covenantee]

Yes, for 17 centuries the orthodox church did align more with Plato than with the scriptures. It's something of a miracle that 19th theologians were able to dig through the error and get back to what Paul said.

Yes, for 17 centuries the historical orthodox true Christian Church was entirely heathen and pagan until the dispensational futurites appeared.

Keep those gems coming.

 

[Zao is life]

My opinion is irrelevant. It's laid out pretty clearly in Paul's letters. The mystery that was kept secret until God revealed it to Paul says that there is no difference between the Jew and the gentile, that they are all one (Gal 3:28). It says that the Gentiles are fellowheirs with the Jews, partakers of the promise, and that they are one body (Eph 3:6).

None of that was in the OT

I'm interested in what you say about this because I believe it was in the OT - from the time of God's very first promise to Abraham - but it was a mystery to the Jews because no way could they understand it before Christ came.

Genesis 17:3-6
"And Abram fell on his face. And God talked with him, saying, As for Me, behold! My covenant is with you, and you shall be a father of a multitude of gôyim (Gentiles/Gentile nations).

Neither shall your name any more be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham. For I have made you a father of a multitude of gôyim (Gentiles/Gentile nations).

And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, greatly so, and I will make gôyim (Gentiles/Gentile nations) of you, and kings shall come out of you."

In God's very first promise to Abraham, He used the word gôy (plural gôyim) three times, i.e He was not speaking of only one ethnic nation.

Therefore I believe that God's purpose for choosing Abraham was to make him the father of many (Gentile) nations, and through Abraham's seed (Jesus), to bless all families of the earth - and this could not have come to pass if Abraham did not have a son called Isaac, who did not have a son called Jacob/Israel, who did not become the father of twelve sons,

one of whom (Judah) became the patriarch of the tribe of Judah (the Jews),

through whom God chose to bring the seed promised to Abraham (Jesus) into the world,

through Whom all the families of the earth are blessed (Jesus was born a Jew).

So Abraham became the father of a multitude of Gentile nations, just as God had promised.

Besides this:

"Ephraim shall be broken so that it shall not be a people." -- Isaiah 7:8

Circa 722 B.C - over 700 years before the time of Christ - when God judged the house of Israel (a.k.a Ephraim) for its idolatry (at the hand of the Assyrian king), the overwhelming majority of the ten northern tribes of Israel were exiled, but God continued, at the time, to have mercy upon the southern kingdom, a.k.a the house of Judah.

From circa 722 BC (following their exile after the invasion of the Northern kingdom by the king of Assyria, which resulted in the ending of the Northern kingdom), the house of Israel became scattered among the nations.

It ceased being a nation before God; and the descendants of the 10 tribes of the house of Israel intermarried with the Gentiles in the nations after their dispersion, to the point where over time "the lost ten tribes" are untraceable today.

The New Covenant was promised to the House of Israel and the House of Judah. Hosea and Ezekiel and other prophets mentioned them being reunited into one nation under the Son of David.

So I believe the mystery was in the OT - from the time of God's very first promise to Abraham - but it was a mystery to God's elect remnant among each generation of the elect nation, as well as to the rest of the Jews because no way could any of them understand it before Christ came.

There is a hint of this in Romans 11 in the difference between the "you" and "they" not receiving mercy.​