The Root question of Amillenial vs Premillenial

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Rich R

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The Shepherd of Hermas
Rome, Italy

(written in AD 88-99)

Fourth Vision Concerning the Trial and Tribulation that are to Come Upon Men. Chapter III

I asked her about the four colours which the beast had on his head. And she answered, and said to me, “Again you are inquisitive in regard to such matters.” “Yea, Lady,” said I, “make known to me what they are.” “Listen,” said she: “the black is the world in which we dwell: but the fiery and bloody points out that the world must perish through blood and fire: but the golden part are you who have escaped from this world. For as gold is tested by fire, and thus becomes useful, so are you tested who dwell in it. Those, therefore, who continue stedfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it. For as gold casts away its dross, so also will ye cast away all sadness and straitness, and will be made pure so as to fit into the building of the tower. But the white part is the age that is to come, in which the elect of God will dwell, since those elected by God to eternal life will be spotless and pure. Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come. If ye wish it, it will be nothing. Remember those things which were written down before.” And saying this, she departed. But I saw not into what place she retired. There was a noise, however, and I turned round in alarm, thinking that that beast was coming.

Hermas believed that the tribulation period was a current ongoing reality for the genuine believer. There was no escapist theology attached to his teaching.

Parable 1

1[50]:1 He saith to me; "Ye know that ye, who are the servants of God, are dwelling in a foreign land; for your city is far from this city. If then ye know your city, in which ye shall dwell, why do ye here prepare fields and expensive displays and buildings and dwelling-chambers which are superfluous?
1[50]:2 He, therefore, that prepareth these things for this city does not purpose to return to his own city.
1[50]:3 O foolish and double-minded and miserable man, perceivest thou not that all these things are foreign, and are under the power of another for the lord of this city shall say, "I do not wish thee to dwell in my city; go forth from this city, for thou dost not conform to my laws."
1[50]:4 Thou, therefor who hast fields and dwellings and many other possessions, when thou art cast out by him, what wilt thou do with thy field and thy house and all the other things that thou preparedst for thyself? For the lord of this country saith to thee justly, "Either conform to my laws, or depart from my country."
1[50]:5 What then shalt thou do, who art under law in thine own city? For the sake of thy fields and the rest of thy possessions wilt thou altogether repudiate thy law, and walk according to the law of this city? Take heed, lest it be inexpedient to repudiate the law; for if thou shouldest desire to return again to thy city, thou shall surely not be received [because thou didst repudiate the law of the city], and shalt be shut out from it.
1[50]:6 Take heed therefore; as dwelling in a strange land prepare nothing more for thyself but a competency which is sufficient for thee, and make ready that, whensoever the master of this city may desire to cast thee out for thine opposition to his law, thou mayest go forth from his city and depart into thine own city and use thine own law joyfully, free from all insult.


Parable 8

3[69]:5 I say unto him; "Sir, wherefore did he send away some into the tower, and leave others for thee?" "As many," saith he, "as transgressed the law which they received from him, these he left under my authority for repentance; but as many as already satisfied the law and have observed it, these he has under his own authority."
3[69]:6 "Who then, Sir," say I, "are they that have been crowned and go into the tower?" ["As many," saith he, "as wrestled with the devil and overcame him in their wrestling, are crowned:] these are they that suffered for the law.

Clement
Alexandria, Egypt

(AD
150-215)

The Instructor
Book I
Chapter VI – The Name Children Does Not Imply Instruction In Elementary Principles


And we have still to explain what is said by the apostle: "I have fed you with milk (as children in Christ), not with meat; for ye were not able, neither yet are ye now able." For it does not appear to me that the expression is to be taken in a Jewish sense; for I shall oppose to it also that Scripture, "I will bring you into that good land which flows with milk and honey." A very great difficulty arises in reference to the comparison of these Scriptures, when we consider. For if the infancy which is characterized by the milk is the beginning of faith in Christ, then it is disparaged as childish and imperfect. How is the rest that comes after the meat, the rest of the man who is perfect and endowed with knowledge, again distinguished by infant milk? Does not this, as explaining a parable, mean something like this, and is not the expression to be read somewhat to the following effect: "I have fed you with milk in Christ;" and after a slight stop, let us add, "as children," that by separating the words in reading we may make out some such sense as this: I have instructed you in Christ with simple, true, and natural nourishment,--namely, that which is spiritual: for such is the nourishing substance of milk swelling out from breasts of love. So that the whole matter may be conceived thus: As nurses nourish new-born children on milk, so do I also by the Word, the milk of Christ, instilling into you spiritual nutriment…

With milk, then, the Lord's nutriment, we are nursed directly we are born; and as soon as we are regenerated, we are honoured by receiving the good news of the hope of rest, even the Jerusalem above, in which it is written that milk and honey fall in showers, receiving through what is material the pledge of the sacred food.

Hermes is not my source for truth. Hermes says...vs Yahweh says... I choose the later.

BTW, I trust you noticed 1) I said Origen was one of the first. I qualified there were others, but it was Origen that made it popular. 2) I said my OP was quick and dirty. There are many other, such as those you've named, that interpreted the scriptures in an allegorical way.
 

Wick Stick

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This is a passage I would not argue about for it gives credence to both sides.
Yep - both positions make sense from the text. Also, both positions require that we take one statement or the other as not-literal.

I lean in favor of the idea that Jonah died and was resurrected. It makes sense with Jesus statement about 'the sign of Jonah' with regards to His own death and resurrection.
 
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Rich R

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Origen
Alexandria, Egypt

(AD 185-254)

De Principiis
Book IV.
Chapter I.22.


[T]here are certain souls in this world who are called Israel, and a city in heaven which is called Jerusalem, it follows that those cities which are said to belong to the nation of Israel have the heavenly Jerusalem as their metropolis; and that, agreeably to this, we understand as referring to the whole of Judah (of which also we are of opinion that the prophets have spoken in certain mystical narratives), any predictions delivered either regarding Judea or Jerusalem, or invasions of any kind, which the sacred histories declare to have happened to Judea or Jerusalem. Whatever, then, is either narrated or predicted of Jerusalem, must, if we accept the words of Paul as those of Christ speaking in him, be understood as spoken in conformity with his opinion regarding that city which he calls the heavenly Jerusalem, and all those places or cities which are said to be cities of the holy land, of which Jerusalem is the metropolis. For we are to suppose that it is from these very cities that the Saviour, wishing to raise us to a higher grade of intelligence, promises to those who have well managed the money entrusted to them by Himself, that they are to have power over ten or five cities. If, then, the prophecies delivered concerning Judea, and Jerusalem, and Judah, and Israel, and Jacob, not being understood by us in a carnal sense, signify certain divine mysteries, it certainly follows that those prophecies also which were delivered either concerning Egypt or the Egyptians, or Babylonia and the Babylonians, and Sidon and the Sidonians, are not to be understood as spoken of that Egypt which is situated on the earth, or of the earthly Babylon, Tyre, or Sidon.
That's some pretty creative allegory that changes the plain sense so as to fit with his idea.
 

WPM

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Hermes is not my source for truth. Hermes says...vs Yahweh says... I choose the later.

BTW, I trust you noticed 1) I said Origen was one of the first. I qualified there were others, but it was Origen that made it popular. 2) I said my OP was quick and dirty. There are many other, such as those you've named, that interpreted the scriptures in an allegorical way.
You said
  • "There is no historical evidence that the allegorical method was to interpret the scriptures in the first 200 years or so after Jesus"?
  • "It wasn't until roughly the start of the 3rd century that the allegorical method of interpretation was introduced"?
  • "It was Origin (c. 185-253) who most scholars credit with introducing the allegorical method"?
  • Origen "was influenced by the teachings of the School of Alexandria"?
  • "The avowed purpose of that institution (the School of Alexandria) was to harmonize Greek philosophy with the Hebrew Scriptures"?
  • "That problem was supposedly solved by Augustine (354 -430 AD)"?
You are yet to support one of these claims. These were all lies. These were false claims. You were being deceptive. You then said:
I'll make you a deal. Find me just one citation that says that Origin was not one of the first to use the allegorical method of interpreting scripture and I'll remove the OP. Fell free to use the ECFs.

I showed you just a few examples. Now you are doing a U-turn! Why am I not surprised? Your whole thread and thesis just went up in smoke! You are obviously not a man of your word. Your credibility is now gone!
 

Rich R

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OK. So what does it say that the Church has replaced?
Assuming the "it" is replacement theology, I got the following from Wiki:

"Supersessionism, also called replacement theology,[1] is the Christian doctrine that the Christian Church has superseded the Jewish people, assuming their role as God's covenanted people,[2] thus asserting that the New Covenant through Jesus Christ has superseded or replaced the Mosaic covenant. Supersessionists hold that the universal Church has become God's true Israel and so Christians, whether Jew or gentile, are the people of God."​

I'll trow in one more source (of millions as per Google) that agrees with Wiki: Replacement Theology

That seems to be the essence of the doctrine. Yes? No?
 

Wick Stick

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OK.

BTW, coventee pointed out that I was mis-peslling Origen's name. It's not Origin.
I don't think he spelled it that way. He probably wrote it as Ὠριγένης, or maybe something in Egyptian like?

G5

G38
 

Rich R

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You said
  • "There is no historical evidence that the allegorical method was to interpret the scriptures in the first 200 years or so after Jesus"?
  • "It wasn't until roughly the start of the 3rd century that the allegorical method of interpretation was introduced"?
  • "It was Origin (c. 185-253) who most scholars credit with introducing the allegorical method"?
  • Origen "was influenced by the teachings of the School of Alexandria"?
  • "The avowed purpose of that institution (the School of Alexandria) was to harmonize Greek philosophy with the Hebrew Scriptures"?
  • "That problem was supposedly solved by Augustine (354 -430 AD)"?
You are yet to support one of these claims. These were all lies. These were false claims. You were being deceptive. You then said:


I showed you just a few examples. Now you are doing a U-turn! Why am I not surprised? Your whole thread and thesis just went up in smoke! You are obviously not a man of your word. Your credibility is now gone!
Like I had any to begin with in your eyes? However, I have to offer you my gratitude for pointing out I need to be more careful about what I say in the future. Maybe quick and dirty is not the way to go. I'll keep that in mind Thanks!

Still all things considered, the main point of my OP was that the allegorical method distorts the scriptures. Though I may have been incorrect in some details, it doesn't change the thesis.

BTW, I actually looked and there doesn't appear to be a way to remove an OP like you can delete a reply. Never noticed that.
 
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WPM

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Like I had any to begin with in your eyes?

I had/have no personal issue with you. I am happy to disagree with a brother and still respect their right to their opinion. But I hate deception. I hate people deceiving. Your Op is deception. It has been exposed as such. What are you going to do with that? You have not even tried to retract or apologize for this. That is thee issue. This is where you lose credibility. It is only pride that causes a man to dig his heels in when he us in the wrong.

Your whole thesis has crumbled before your eyes and, all you want to do is justify it!
 
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David in NJ

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Yes; I should have been more precise.

Replacement theology refers to the claim that the Church has replaced Israel.

But the Church has not replaced Israel's physical DNA, or Israel's invitation to receive Christ, or Israel's opportunity to receive Christ.

So what has the Church replaced?

Do you know where "replacement theology'" originated???
 

Rich R

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I had/have no personal issue with you. I am happy to disagree with a brother and still respect their right to their opinion. But I hate deception. I hate people deceiving. Your Op is deception. It has been exposed as such. What are you going to do with that? You have not even tried to retract or apologize for this. That is thee issue. This is where you lose credibility. It is only pride that causes a man to dig his heals in when he us in the wrong.

Your whole thesis has crumbled before your eyes and, all you want to do is justify it!
I edited my reply. Check it out.

BTW, I have no personal issue with you either. Even then, being on the other side of fence, I think much of what you've said is not according to the truth.

But I am confused about something you said. On the one hand you say you respect one's right to a different opinion. On the other hand you say hate deception and people deceiving, that my OP is deceiving. I'm not sensing any respect there. That's OK. I don't feel as though I deserve respect from anybody and everybody. I'm just wondering when is it in your mind that someone crosses the line between having a different opinion and outright deception.
 

Rich R

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Do you know where "replacement theology'" originated???
Paul said that there were some in the church who were claiming that the resurrection is past, overthrowing the faith of some believers. That may well have been at least the seed of replacement doctrine.

I also understand that some leaders in the early church were infatuated with Greek philosophy. They tried to harmonize Plato with Moses. Of course such a harmonization was quite impossible with a literal interpretation, but allegory fit the bill. Israel was no longer Israel as the plain text avers. Now, by way of allegory, the church became Israel.
 

David in NJ

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Paul said that there were some in the church who were claiming that the resurrection is past, overthrowing the faith of some believers. That may well have been at least the seed of replacement doctrine.

I also understand that some leaders in the early church were infatuated with Greek philosophy. They tried to harmonize Plato with Moses. Of course such a harmonization was quite impossible with a literal interpretation, but allegory fit the bill. Israel was no longer Israel as the plain text avers. Now, by way of allegory, the church became Israel.
"claiming that the resurrection is past, overthrowing the faith of some believers" is a SERIOUS sin that leads to eternal death!
 

th1b.taylor

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An often overlooked aspect of amillenial vs premillenial is the method of interpretation. It is generally agreed among scholars that those who hold to the amillenial view employ the allegorical method of interpretation of scripture whereas the premillenial view is based on a literal interpretation of scripture. So a study of the history of biblical interpretation may help shed some light on the matter. I'll attempt to give a far from exhaustive commentary on the matter.

There is no historical evidence that the allegorical method was to interpret the scriptures in the first 200 years or so after Jesus. Throughout the Gospels, Acts, and Paul's letters it is obvious that the Jews fully expected a literal land and a literal kingdom. One of the last things the 12 asked Jesus about just before ascending to the Father was if they could soon expect the kingdom that God had promised them throughout the Tanakh. Their is no evidence that they thought the 150 or so verses in the Tanakh that promised them a land meant anything other than land

It wasn't until roughly the start of the 3rd century that the allegorical method of interpretation was introduced. It was Origin (c. 185-253) who most scholars credit with introducing the allegorical method. There were a few others before him (for example, Philo, a Jew who was infatuated by Greek philosophy), but it was Origin who really got the ball rolling. He was influenced by the teachings of the School of Alexandria. The avowed purpose of that institution was to harmonize Greek philosophy with the Hebrew Scriptures. I would suggest such a beginning is inauspicious to say the least.

It wasn't long before a problem a problem arose with the allegorical method, namely, who or what is to be the final authority as to what a particular passage meant? Who was to determine the precise "spiritual" meaning of otherwise plain words? One's mind could go wild without having some final authority to determine the precise meaning of plain words turned allegory.

That problem was supposedly solved by Augustine (354 -430 AD). He said the Roman Church was the final authority in determining the "hidden meaning" of the scriptures. Was that a good thing? Personally, I think not at all, but let the reader decide for themself. However, when deciding keep in mind that for some 400 years it must be admitted that apparently nobody knew the precise meaning of the scriptures! Furthermore, even after Augustine established the principle that the Roman Church was the arbitrator of truth, it must be admitted that for the next 1,500 years the common person was unable to understand the scriptures by their own personal study. With few exceptions, it wasn't until Martin Luther arrived on the scene that the literal method was reintroduced as the preferred method of interpretation. It was by his literal interpretation that he preached grace vs indulgences and obedience to the Roman Church edicts.

As I said, this is about as quick and dirty a summery of Biblical interpretation as quick and dirty gets. There is tons of information on the internet for anybody who wants to delver deeper into the matter. The main point I wanted to make was the amillenial vs premillenial ultimately comes down to allegory vs the plain meaning of scripture.
I want to clarify that I have nothing against those of the Catholic faith. I consider them my brothers and sisters and thus love them with my whole heart. But that has nothing to do with the history of the Christian church. Need I say, that the Protestant church also shares in the commission of many heinous acts throughout history? History is history. It is a record of things that actually transpired. It's not always pretty. The only solution to man's depravity will be when Jesus reigns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, when God renews the heavens and the earth, bringing them back to the original creation of Genesis, i.e. the renewed Garden of Eden.
I hold to the Pre... Position but refuse ti argue for it in favor of it because what Yehovah and Yashuah have is the final authority and to impress upon others, our personal takes, at all cost is dumb. I am no more Creator God than you are and no matter who is right, we are to love one another. Perhaps we should just wave as all of us are taken up?
 

Rich R

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Now that you've thoroughly disproved the OP, I wish that rather than deleting it, @Rich R would simply add a retraction to it.

I did tell him on page 1 that the Jews and the churches of Syria and Africa continued the practice without abatement. Ah well.
Read the OP. Thanks to WPM's post, though not a real challenge to my basic thesis, I clarified it nonetheless. And remember, I did say in the OP that I gave a quick and dirty overview.

In any case, does it really matter who began using allegory in order to harmonize Plato with Moses?
 

Rich R

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"claiming that the resurrection is past, overthrowing the faith of some believers" is a SERIOUS sin that leads to eternal death!
I don't know about leading to eternal death, but it's certainly not going to win any points with God at the Bema.

BTW, you must be proud of your grandchildren. Nice looking group!
 

David in NJ

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I don't know about leading to eternal death, but it's certainly not going to win any points with God at the Bema.

BTW, you must be proud of your grandchildren. Nice looking group!
LOL my Brother,

The Lymes disease and other sorrows aged me greatly = those are my children.

i do not have any grand children.
 

David in NJ

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I hold to the Pre... Position but refuse ti argue for it in favor of it because what Yehovah and Yashuah have is the final authority and to impress upon others, our personal takes, at all cost is dumb. I am no more Creator God than you are and no matter who is right, we are to love one another. Perhaps we should just wave as all of us are taken up?
Perhaps we should just wave as all of us are taken up?

LOL in LOVE my Brother = loved it = Thank you
 

David in NJ

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I don't know about leading to eternal death, but it's certainly not going to win any points with God at the Bema.

BTW, you must be proud of your grandchildren. Nice looking group!

THANK YOU for the compliment of my family - greatly appreciated!!!