The Root question of Amillenial vs Premillenial

[David in NJ]

"Replacement theology" is certainly nonsense.

Depends on who defines "Replacement theology"

It could be complete nonsense (which i am sure most of it is).....or.....it could be Truth,
depending upon whose definition of it.

 

[WPM]

I'll make you a deal. Find me just one citation that says that Origin was not one of the first to use the allegorical method of interpreting scripture and I'll remove the OP. Fell free to use the ECFs.

I will present Barnabas to start with:

Barnabas
Alexandria, Egypt
(AD 70-120)​

Chapter 6 – The sufferings of Christ, and the new covenant, were announced by the prophets

[T]he prophet proclaimed, “Enter ye into the land flowing with milk and honey, and have dominion over it.” Behold, therefore, we have been refashioned, as again He says in another prophet, “Behold, saith the Lord, I will take away from these, that is, from those whom the Spirit of the Lord foresaw, their stony hearts, and I will put hearts of flesh within them,” because He was to be manifested in flesh, and to sojourn among us. For, my brethren, the habitation of our heart is a holy temple to the Lord. For again saith the Lord, “And wherewith shall I appear before the Lord my God, and be glorified?” He says, “I will confess to thee in the Church in the midst of my brethren; and I will praise thee in the midst of the assembly of the saints.” We, then, are they whom He has led into the good land. What, then, mean milk and honey? This, that as the infant is kept alive first by honey, and then by milk, so also we, being quickened and kept alive by the faith of the promise and by the word, shall live ruling over the earth. But He said above, “Let them increase, and rule over the fishes.” Who then is able to govern the beasts, or the fishes, or the fowls of heaven? For we ought to perceive that to govern implies authority, so that one should command and rule. If, therefore, this does not exist at present, yet still He has promised it to us. When? When we ourselves also have been made perfect [so as] to become heirs of the covenant of the Lord.

Barnabas spiritualises the Old Testament land promises in a manner that would cause modern premillennialists to go cross-eyed. This is a classic Amillennial approach to the fulfilment of Old Testament prophesies in a New Testament context. He also applies the promises made to natural Israel in the Old Testament to the New Testament church today.

Chapter 8. The red heifer a type of Christ

Now what do you suppose this to be a type of, that a command was given to Israel, that men of the greatest wickedness should offer a heifer, and slay and burn it, and, that then boys should take the ashes, and put these into vessels, and bind round a stick purple wool along with hyssop, and that thus the boys should sprinkle the people, one by one, in order that they might be purified from their sins? Consider how He speaks to you with simplicity. The calf is Jesus: the sinful men offering it are those who led Him to the slaughter. But now the men are no longer guilty, are no longer regarded as sinners. And the boys that sprinkle are those that have proclaimed to us the remission of sins and purification of heart. To these He gave authority to preach the Gospel, being twelve in number, corresponding to the twelve tribes of Israel. But why are there three boys that sprinkle? To correspond to Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, because these were great with God. And why was the wool [placed] upon the wood? Because by wood Jesus holds His kingdom, so that [through the cross] those believing on Him shall live forever. But why was hyssop joined with the wool? Because in His kingdom the days will be evil and polluted in which we shall be saved, [and] because he who suffers in body is cured through the cleansing efficacy of hyssop. And on this account the things which stand thus are clear to us, but obscure to them because they did not hear the voice of the Lord.

Barnabas sees the kingdom as here now and also coming in the future. That fits in with the modern Amillennialist position which involves the “already/not yet” aspect to the kingdom of God. He acknowledges the current function of the Church now in this evil age, saying “in His kingdom the days will be evil and polluted in which we shall be saved.” This is an ongoing reality for this early Church writer. The kingdom to him involves an earthly experience before glorification.

Chapter XVI – The spiritual temple of God.

Moreover, I will also tell you concerning the temple, how the wretched [Jews], wandering in error, trusted not in God Himself, but in the temple, as being the house of God. For almost after the manner of the Gentiles they worshipped Him in the temple. But learn how the Lord speaks, when abolishing it: “Who hath meted out heaven with a span, and the earth with his palm? Have not I?” “Thus saith the Lord, Heaven is My throne, and the earth My footstool: what kind of house will ye build to Me, or what is the place of My rest?” Ye perceive that their hope is vain. Moreover, He again says, “Behold, they who have cast down this temple, even they shall build it up again.” It has so happened. For through their going to war, it was destroyed by their enemies; and now: they, as the servants of their enemies, shall rebuild it. Again, it was revealed that the city and the temple and the people of Israel were to be given up. For the Scripture saith, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the Lord will deliver up the sheep of His pasture, and their sheep-fold and tower, to destruction.” And it so happened as the Lord had spoken. Let us inquire, then, if there still is a temple of God. There is—where He himself declared He would make and finish it. For it is written, “And it shall come to pass, when the week is completed, the temple of God shall be built in glory in the name of the Lord.” I find, therefore, that a temple does exist. Learn, then, how it shall be built in the name of the Lord. Before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt and weak, as being indeed like a temple made with hands. For it was full of idolatry, and was a habitation of demons, through our doing such things as were opposed to [the will of] God. But it shall be built, observe ye, in the name of the Lord, in order that the temple of the Lord may be built in glory. How? Learn [as follows]. Having received the forgiveness of sins, and placed our trust in the name of the Lord, we have become new creatures, formed again from the beginning. Wherefore in our habitation God truly dwells in us. How? His word of faith; His calling of promise; the wisdom of the statutes; the commands of the doctrine; He himself prophesying in us; He himself dwelling in us; opening to us who were enslaved by death the doors of the temple, that is, the mouth; and by giving us repentance introduced us into the incorruptible temple. He then, who wishes to be saved, looks not to man, but to Him who dwelleth in him, and speaketh in him, amazed at never having either heard him utter such words with his mouth, nor himself having ever desired to hear them. This is the spiritual temple built for the Lord.

For Barnabas, the temple of God is spiritual. It is revealed in the human heart. This temple is built up in place of the Jewish temple.

​

 

[WPM]

I'll make you a deal. Find me just one citation that says that Origin was not one of the first to use the allegorical method of interpreting scripture and I'll remove the OP. Fell free to use the ECFs.

The Shepherd of Hermas
Rome, Italy
(written in AD 88-99)
​

Fourth Vision Concerning the Trial and Tribulation that are to Come Upon Men. Chapter III

I asked her about the four colours which the beast had on his head. And she answered, and said to me, “Again you are inquisitive in regard to such matters.” “Yea, Lady,” said I, “make known to me what they are.” “Listen,” said she: “the black is the world in which we dwell: but the fiery and bloody points out that the world must perish through blood and fire: but the golden part are you who have escaped from this world. For as gold is tested by fire, and thus becomes useful, so are you tested who dwell in it. Those, therefore, who continue stedfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it. For as gold casts away its dross, so also will ye cast away all sadness and straitness, and will be made pure so as to fit into the building of the tower. But the white part is the age that is to come, in which the elect of God will dwell, since those elected by God to eternal life will be spotless and pure. Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come. If ye wish it, it will be nothing. Remember those things which were written down before.” And saying this, she departed. But I saw not into what place she retired. There was a noise, however, and I turned round in alarm, thinking that that beast was coming.

Hermas believed that the tribulation period was a current ongoing reality for the genuine believer. There was no escapist theology attached to his teaching.

Parable 1

1[50]:1 He saith to me; "Ye know that ye, who are the servants of God, are dwelling in a foreign land; for your city is far from this city. If then ye know your city, in which ye shall dwell, why do ye here prepare fields and expensive displays and buildings and dwelling-chambers which are superfluous?
1[50]:2 He, therefore, that prepareth these things for this city does not purpose to return to his own city.
1[50]:3 O foolish and double-minded and miserable man, perceivest thou not that all these things are foreign, and are under the power of another for the lord of this city shall say, "I do not wish thee to dwell in my city; go forth from this city, for thou dost not conform to my laws."
1[50]:4 Thou, therefor who hast fields and dwellings and many other possessions, when thou art cast out by him, what wilt thou do with thy field and thy house and all the other things that thou preparedst for thyself? For the lord of this country saith to thee justly, "Either conform to my laws, or depart from my country."
1[50]:5 What then shalt thou do, who art under law in thine own city? For the sake of thy fields and the rest of thy possessions wilt thou altogether repudiate thy law, and walk according to the law of this city? Take heed, lest it be inexpedient to repudiate the law; for if thou shouldest desire to return again to thy city, thou shall surely not be received [because thou didst repudiate the law of the city], and shalt be shut out from it.
1[50]:6 Take heed therefore; as dwelling in a strange land prepare nothing more for thyself but a competency which is sufficient for thee, and make ready that, whensoever the master of this city may desire to cast thee out for thine opposition to his law, thou mayest go forth from his city and depart into thine own city and use thine own law joyfully, free from all insult.

Parable 8

3[69]:5 I say unto him; "Sir, wherefore did he send away some into the tower, and leave others for thee?" "As many," saith he, "as transgressed the law which they received from him, these he left under my authority for repentance; but as many as already satisfied the law and have observed it, these he has under his own authority."
3[69]:6 "Who then, Sir," say I, "are they that have been crowned and go into the tower?" ["As many," saith he, "as wrestled with the devil and overcame him in their wrestling, are crowned:] these are they that suffered for the law.

Clement
Alexandria, Egypt
(AD 150-215)​

The Instructor
Book I
Chapter VI – The Name Children Does Not Imply Instruction In Elementary Principles

And we have still to explain what is said by the apostle: "I have fed you with milk (as children in Christ), not with meat; for ye were not able, neither yet are ye now able." For it does not appear to me that the expression is to be taken in a Jewish sense; for I shall oppose to it also that Scripture, "I will bring you into that good land which flows with milk and honey." A very great difficulty arises in reference to the comparison of these Scriptures, when we consider. For if the infancy which is characterized by the milk is the beginning of faith in Christ, then it is disparaged as childish and imperfect. How is the rest that comes after the meat, the rest of the man who is perfect and endowed with knowledge, again distinguished by infant milk? Does not this, as explaining a parable, mean something like this, and is not the expression to be read somewhat to the following effect: "I have fed you with milk in Christ;" and after a slight stop, let us add, "as children," that by separating the words in reading we may make out some such sense as this: I have instructed you in Christ with simple, true, and natural nourishment,--namely, that which is spiritual: for such is the nourishing substance of milk swelling out from breasts of love. So that the whole matter may be conceived thus: As nurses nourish new-born children on milk, so do I also by the Word, the milk of Christ, instilling into you spiritual nutriment…

With milk, then, the Lord's nutriment, we are nursed directly we are born; and as soon as we are regenerated, we are honoured by receiving the good news of the hope of rest, even the Jerusalem above, in which it is written that milk and honey fall in showers, receiving through what is material the pledge of the sacred food.

​

 

[WPM]

I'll make you a deal. Find me just one citation that says that Origin was not one of the first to use the allegorical method of interpreting scripture and I'll remove the OP. Fell free to use the ECFs.

Hippolytus
Rome, Italy
(AD 170 – 236)
​

Chapter 25

And this, he says, is what Moses asserts: "The earth was invisible, and unfashioned." This (substance) is, he says, the good (and) the heavenly Jerusalem, into which God has promised to conduct the children of Israel, saying, "I will bring you into a land flowing with milk and honey."

Tertullian
Carthage, Africa, (now Tunisia)
(AD 160 – 240)​

On the Resurrection of the Flesh

In this way the Jews lose heavenly blessings, by confining their hopes to earthly ones, being ignorant of the promise of heavenly bread, and of the oil of God’s unction, and the wine of the Spirit, and of that water of life which has its vigour from the vine of Christ. On exactly the same principle, they consider the special soil of Judæa to be that very holy land, which ought rather to be interpreted of the Lord’s flesh, which, in all those who put on Christ, is thenceforward the holy land; holy indeed by the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, truly flowing with milk and honey by the sweetness of His assurance, truly Judæan by reason of the friendship of God. For “he is not a Jew which is one outwardly, but he who is one inwardly.” In the same way it is that both God’s temple and Jerusalem (must be understood) when it is said by Isaiah: “Awake, awake, O Jerusalem! put on the strength of thine arm; awake, as in thine earliest time,” that is to say, in that innocence which preceded the fall into sin. For how can words of this kind of exhortation and invitation be suitable for that Jerusalem which killed the prophets, and stoned those that were sent to them, and at last crucified its very Lord? Neither indeed is salvation promised to any one land at all, which must needs pass away with the fashion of the whole world. Even if anybody should venture strongly to contend that paradise is the holy land, which it may be possible to designate as the land of our first parents Adam and Eve, it will even then follow that the restoration of paradise will seem to be promised to the flesh, whose lot it was to inhabit and keep it, in order that man may be recalled thereto just such as he was driven from it.

Chapter 16. The Sacred Name Jesus Most Suited to the Christ of the Creator. Joshua a Type of Him.

This, then, we first observe, was a figure of Him who was to come. For inasmuch as Jesus Christ was to introduce a new generation (because we are born in the wilderness of this world) into the promised land which flows with milk and honey, that is, into the possession of eternal life, than which nothing can be sweeter; inasmuch, too, as this was to be brought about not by Moses, that is to say, not by the discipline of the law, but by Joshua, by the grace of the gospel, our circumcision being effected by a knife of stone, that is, (by the circumcision) of Christ, for Christ is a rock (or stone), therefore that great man, who was ordained as a type of this mystery, was actually consecrated with the figure of the Lord's own name, being called Joshua. This name Christ Himself even then testified to be His own, when He talked with Moses. For who was it that talked with him, but the Spirit of the Creator, which is Christ?

 

[WPM]

I'll make you a deal. Find me just one citation that says that Origin was not one of the first to use the allegorical method of interpreting scripture and I'll remove the OP. Fell free to use the ECFs.

Origen
Alexandria, Egypt
(AD 185-254)​

De Principiis
Book IV.
Chapter I.22.

[T]here are certain souls in this world who are called Israel, and a city in heaven which is called Jerusalem, it follows that those cities which are said to belong to the nation of Israel have the heavenly Jerusalem as their metropolis; and that, agreeably to this, we understand as referring to the whole of Judah (of which also we are of opinion that the prophets have spoken in certain mystical narratives), any predictions delivered either regarding Judea or Jerusalem, or invasions of any kind, which the sacred histories declare to have happened to Judea or Jerusalem. Whatever, then, is either narrated or predicted of Jerusalem, must, if we accept the words of Paul as those of Christ speaking in him, be understood as spoken in conformity with his opinion regarding that city which he calls the heavenly Jerusalem, and all those places or cities which are said to be cities of the holy land, of which Jerusalem is the metropolis. For we are to suppose that it is from these very cities that the Saviour, wishing to raise us to a higher grade of intelligence, promises to those who have well managed the money entrusted to them by Himself, that they are to have power over ten or five cities. If, then, the prophecies delivered concerning Judea, and Jerusalem, and Judah, and Israel, and Jacob, not being understood by us in a carnal sense, signify certain divine mysteries, it certainly follows that those prophecies also which were delivered either concerning Egypt or the Egyptians, or Babylonia and the Babylonians, and Sidon and the Sidonians, are not to be understood as spoken of that Egypt which is situated on the earth, or of the earthly Babylon, Tyre, or Sidon.

 

[covenantee]

Depends on who defines "Replacement theology"

It could be complete nonsense (which i am sure most of it is).....or.....it could be Truth,
depending upon whose definition of it.

Yes; I should have been more precise.

Replacement theology refers to the claim that the Church has replaced Israel.

But the Church has not replaced Israel's physical DNA, or Israel's invitation to receive Christ, or Israel's opportunity to receive Christ.

So what has the Church replaced?

 

[Gottservant]

Can God not save souls before, during and after the Tribulation?

 

[rwb]

So you found something that says Origin wasn't one of the first to employ the allegorical method? Where is it? I'll have a look.

And how pray tell do you know I haven't read Origin's works? I actually have. In his "Dialogue with Tyrpho" it is glaringly obvious that he held a low opinion of the Jews, which ultimately paved the way for replacement theology, making the church the "spiritual Israel." Never mind there is no such phraseology in the Bible itself.

I wasn't looking!

 

[rwb]

The name is Origen. So if you've been reading Origin, then you haven't been reading Origen.

But I think that WPM and rwb misspelled it as well.

And the dialogue was between Justin Martyr and Trypho, not Origin and Tyrpho.

You're welcome.

Replacement theology does not replace Israel's physical DNA.

Replacement theology does not replace Christ's invitation to Israel to receive Him.

Replacement theology does not replace Israel's opportunity to receive Christ.

So what does replacement theology replace?

Had to laugh! I assumed Rich's spelling! Thanks for the laugh

 

[rwb]

"Replacement theology" is certainly nonsense.

Exactly! But it seems Premillennialists can't help themselves! Can't really blame them (lol) after all they get no help from the Scriptures!

 

[Rich R]

The name is Origen. So if you've been reading Origin, then you haven't been reading Origen.

Yes. Thanks. I guess I was spelling by sound. :)

But I think that WPM and rwb misspelled it as well.

And the dialogue was between Justin Martyr and Trypho, not Origin and Tyrpho.

Right again. Same idea though.

You're welcome.

Replacement theology does not replace Israel's physical DNA.

Replacement theology does not replace Christ's invitation to Israel to receive Him.

Replacement theology does not replace Israel's opportunity to receive Christ.

So what does replacement theology replace?

Well, there are many variations of replacement theology, but I think a fairly common tenant is that the the church is the spiritual Israel and inheritors of the kingdom which is presently in heaven instead of on the earth in the future. True?

 

[covenantee]

Yes. Thanks. I guess I was spelling by sound. :)

Right again. Same idea though.

Well, there are many variations of replacement theology, but I think a fairly common tenant is that the the church is the spiritual Israel and inheritors of the kingdom which is presently in heaven instead of on the earth in the future. True?

OK. So what does it say that the Church has replaced?

 

[Wick Stick]

I will present Barnabas to start with:

Barnabas
Alexandria, Egypt
(AD 70-120)​

Chapter 6 – The sufferings of Christ, and the new covenant, were announced by the prophets

[T]he prophet proclaimed, “Enter ye into the land flowing with milk and honey, and have dominion over it.” Behold, therefore, we have been refashioned, as again He says in another prophet, “Behold, saith the Lord, I will take away from these, that is, from those whom the Spirit of the Lord foresaw, their stony hearts, and I will put hearts of flesh within them,” because He was to be manifested in flesh, and to sojourn among us. For, my brethren, the habitation of our heart is a holy temple to the Lord. For again saith the Lord, “And wherewith shall I appear before the Lord my God, and be glorified?” He says, “I will confess to thee in the Church in the midst of my brethren; and I will praise thee in the midst of the assembly of the saints.” We, then, are they whom He has led into the good land. What, then, mean milk and honey? This, that as the infant is kept alive first by honey, and then by milk, so also we, being quickened and kept alive by the faith of the promise and by the word, shall live ruling over the earth. But He said above, “Let them increase, and rule over the fishes.” Who then is able to govern the beasts, or the fishes, or the fowls of heaven? For we ought to perceive that to govern implies authority, so that one should command and rule. If, therefore, this does not exist at present, yet still He has promised it to us. When? When we ourselves also have been made perfect [so as] to become heirs of the covenant of the Lord.

Barnabas spiritualises the Old Testament land promises in a manner that would cause modern premillennialists to go cross-eyed. This is a classic Amillennial approach to the fulfilment of Old Testament prophesies in a New Testament context. He also applies the promises made to natural Israel in the Old Testament to the New Testament church today.

Chapter 8. The red heifer a type of Christ

Now what do you suppose this to be a type of, that a command was given to Israel, that men of the greatest wickedness should offer a heifer, and slay and burn it, and, that then boys should take the ashes, and put these into vessels, and bind round a stick purple wool along with hyssop, and that thus the boys should sprinkle the people, one by one, in order that they might be purified from their sins? Consider how He speaks to you with simplicity. The calf is Jesus: the sinful men offering it are those who led Him to the slaughter. But now the men are no longer guilty, are no longer regarded as sinners. And the boys that sprinkle are those that have proclaimed to us the remission of sins and purification of heart. To these He gave authority to preach the Gospel, being twelve in number, corresponding to the twelve tribes of Israel. But why are there three boys that sprinkle? To correspond to Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, because these were great with God. And why was the wool [placed] upon the wood? Because by wood Jesus holds His kingdom, so that [through the cross] those believing on Him shall live forever. But why was hyssop joined with the wool? Because in His kingdom the days will be evil and polluted in which we shall be saved, [and] because he who suffers in body is cured through the cleansing efficacy of hyssop. And on this account the things which stand thus are clear to us, but obscure to them because they did not hear the voice of the Lord.

Barnabas sees the kingdom as here now and also coming in the future. That fits in with the modern Amillennialist position which involves the “already/not yet” aspect to the kingdom of God. He acknowledges the current function of the Church now in this evil age, saying “in His kingdom the days will be evil and polluted in which we shall be saved.” This is an ongoing reality for this early Church writer. The kingdom to him involves an earthly experience before glorification.

Chapter XVI – The spiritual temple of God.

Moreover, I will also tell you concerning the temple, how the wretched [Jews], wandering in error, trusted not in God Himself, but in the temple, as being the house of God. For almost after the manner of the Gentiles they worshipped Him in the temple. But learn how the Lord speaks, when abolishing it: “Who hath meted out heaven with a span, and the earth with his palm? Have not I?” “Thus saith the Lord, Heaven is My throne, and the earth My footstool: what kind of house will ye build to Me, or what is the place of My rest?” Ye perceive that their hope is vain. Moreover, He again says, “Behold, they who have cast down this temple, even they shall build it up again.” It has so happened. For through their going to war, it was destroyed by their enemies; and now: they, as the servants of their enemies, shall rebuild it. Again, it was revealed that the city and the temple and the people of Israel were to be given up. For the Scripture saith, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the Lord will deliver up the sheep of His pasture, and their sheep-fold and tower, to destruction.” And it so happened as the Lord had spoken. Let us inquire, then, if there still is a temple of God. There is—where He himself declared He would make and finish it. For it is written, “And it shall come to pass, when the week is completed, the temple of God shall be built in glory in the name of the Lord.” I find, therefore, that a temple does exist. Learn, then, how it shall be built in the name of the Lord. Before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt and weak, as being indeed like a temple made with hands. For it was full of idolatry, and was a habitation of demons, through our doing such things as were opposed to [the will of] God. But it shall be built, observe ye, in the name of the Lord, in order that the temple of the Lord may be built in glory. How? Learn [as follows]. Having received the forgiveness of sins, and placed our trust in the name of the Lord, we have become new creatures, formed again from the beginning. Wherefore in our habitation God truly dwells in us. How? His word of faith; His calling of promise; the wisdom of the statutes; the commands of the doctrine; He himself prophesying in us; He himself dwelling in us; opening to us who were enslaved by death the doors of the temple, that is, the mouth; and by giving us repentance introduced us into the incorruptible temple. He then, who wishes to be saved, looks not to man, but to Him who dwelleth in him, and speaketh in him, amazed at never having either heard him utter such words with his mouth, nor himself having ever desired to hear them. This is the spiritual temple built for the Lord.

For Barnabas, the temple of God is spiritual. It is revealed in the human heart. This temple is built up in place of the Jewish temple.

Now that you've thoroughly disproved the OP, I wish that rather than deleting it, @Rich R would simply add a retraction to it.

I did tell him on page 1 that the Jews and the churches of Syria and Africa continued the practice without abatement. Ah well.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Good point. We must read read the account literally (considering figures of speech, etc) and from that literal reading we can learn the application(s). But when one begins to analogize Jonah without using accepted grammatical guidelines, one can say it means whatever strikes their fancy. Maybe it means we should all eat fish tonght?

or that fish should eat all us!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jonah's a great example. Question - did Jonah die? Because some of the language in the book, taken literally, indicates that he did. While other verses don't seem to.

I would say he did not die at least while th ebook was written. He may have been close to death, but he did get puked up on the shores of Nineveh.

 

[WPM]

Now that you've thoroughly disproved the OP, I wish that rather than deleting it, @Rich R would simply add a retraction to it.

I did tell him on page 1 that the Jews and the churches of Syria and Africa continued the practice without abatement. Ah well.

I agree. What some start doing when confronted with the evidence is actually watering down what the ECFs are saying to try and support their initial false claims. They end up supporting the spiritualizing position.

 

[Wick Stick]

I would say he did not die at least while the book was written. He may have been close to death, but he did get puked up on the shores of Nineveh.

Jonah 2 says:

Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly

AND

I cried by reason of my affliction to the LORD, and He heard me; out of the belly of hell I cried

Can we really interpret both verses literally? Maybe?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jonah 2 says:

Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly

AND

I cried by reason of my affliction to the LORD, and He heard me; out of the belly of hell I cried

Can we really interpret both verses literally? Maybe?

Well the language does suggest he may have died and was brought back to life. Even with all the euphemistic language it does suggest he may have died. I would base that only on verse 6. But I still hold he did not die ands was speaking in a metaphor given the poetic form he used in his prayer.

Jonah 2

King James Version

​

2 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.

This is a passage I would not argue about for it gives credence to both sides.

 

[Rich R]

I will present Barnabas to start with:

Barnabas
Alexandria, Egypt
(AD 70-120)​

Chapter 6 – The sufferings of Christ, and the new covenant, were announced by the prophets

[T]he prophet proclaimed, “Enter ye into the land flowing with milk and honey, and have dominion over it.” Behold, therefore, we have been refashioned, as again He says in another prophet, “Behold, saith the Lord, I will take away from these, that is, from those whom the Spirit of the Lord foresaw, their stony hearts, and I will put hearts of flesh within them,” because He was to be manifested in flesh, and to sojourn among us. For, my brethren, the habitation of our heart is a holy temple to the Lord. For again saith the Lord, “And wherewith shall I appear before the Lord my God, and be glorified?” He says, “I will confess to thee in the Church in the midst of my brethren; and I will praise thee in the midst of the assembly of the saints.” We, then, are they whom He has led into the good land. What, then, mean milk and honey? This, that as the infant is kept alive first by honey, and then by milk, so also we, being quickened and kept alive by the faith of the promise and by the word, shall live ruling over the earth. But He said above, “Let them increase, and rule over the fishes.” Who then is able to govern the beasts, or the fishes, or the fowls of heaven? For we ought to perceive that to govern implies authority, so that one should command and rule. If, therefore, this does not exist at present, yet still He has promised it to us. When? When we ourselves also have been made perfect [so as] to become heirs of the covenant of the Lord.

Barnabas spiritualises the Old Testament land promises in a manner that would cause modern premillennialists to go cross-eyed. This is a classic Amillennial approach to the fulfilment of Old Testament prophesies in a New Testament context. He also applies the promises made to natural Israel in the Old Testament to the New Testament church today.

Chapter 8. The red heifer a type of Christ

Now what do you suppose this to be a type of, that a command was given to Israel, that men of the greatest wickedness should offer a heifer, and slay and burn it, and, that then boys should take the ashes, and put these into vessels, and bind round a stick purple wool along with hyssop, and that thus the boys should sprinkle the people, one by one, in order that they might be purified from their sins? Consider how He speaks to you with simplicity. The calf is Jesus: the sinful men offering it are those who led Him to the slaughter. But now the men are no longer guilty, are no longer regarded as sinners. And the boys that sprinkle are those that have proclaimed to us the remission of sins and purification of heart. To these He gave authority to preach the Gospel, being twelve in number, corresponding to the twelve tribes of Israel. But why are there three boys that sprinkle? To correspond to Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, because these were great with God. And why was the wool [placed] upon the wood? Because by wood Jesus holds His kingdom, so that [through the cross] those believing on Him shall live forever. But why was hyssop joined with the wool? Because in His kingdom the days will be evil and polluted in which we shall be saved, [and] because he who suffers in body is cured through the cleansing efficacy of hyssop. And on this account the things which stand thus are clear to us, but obscure to them because they did not hear the voice of the Lord.

Barnabas sees the kingdom as here now and also coming in the future. That fits in with the modern Amillennialist position which involves the “already/not yet” aspect to the kingdom of God. He acknowledges the current function of the Church now in this evil age, saying “in His kingdom the days will be evil and polluted in which we shall be saved.” This is an ongoing reality for this early Church writer. The kingdom to him involves an earthly experience before glorification.

Chapter XVI – The spiritual temple of God.

Moreover, I will also tell you concerning the temple, how the wretched [Jews], wandering in error, trusted not in God Himself, but in the temple, as being the house of God. For almost after the manner of the Gentiles they worshipped Him in the temple. But learn how the Lord speaks, when abolishing it: “Who hath meted out heaven with a span, and the earth with his palm? Have not I?” “Thus saith the Lord, Heaven is My throne, and the earth My footstool: what kind of house will ye build to Me, or what is the place of My rest?” Ye perceive that their hope is vain. Moreover, He again says, “Behold, they who have cast down this temple, even they shall build it up again.” It has so happened. For through their going to war, it was destroyed by their enemies; and now: they, as the servants of their enemies, shall rebuild it. Again, it was revealed that the city and the temple and the people of Israel were to be given up. For the Scripture saith, “And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the Lord will deliver up the sheep of His pasture, and their sheep-fold and tower, to destruction.” And it so happened as the Lord had spoken. Let us inquire, then, if there still is a temple of God. There is—where He himself declared He would make and finish it. For it is written, “And it shall come to pass, when the week is completed, the temple of God shall be built in glory in the name of the Lord.” I find, therefore, that a temple does exist. Learn, then, how it shall be built in the name of the Lord. Before we believed in God, the habitation of our heart was corrupt and weak, as being indeed like a temple made with hands. For it was full of idolatry, and was a habitation of demons, through our doing such things as were opposed to [the will of] God. But it shall be built, observe ye, in the name of the Lord, in order that the temple of the Lord may be built in glory. How? Learn [as follows]. Having received the forgiveness of sins, and placed our trust in the name of the Lord, we have become new creatures, formed again from the beginning. Wherefore in our habitation God truly dwells in us. How? His word of faith; His calling of promise; the wisdom of the statutes; the commands of the doctrine; He himself prophesying in us; He himself dwelling in us; opening to us who were enslaved by death the doors of the temple, that is, the mouth; and by giving us repentance introduced us into the incorruptible temple. He then, who wishes to be saved, looks not to man, but to Him who dwelleth in him, and speaketh in him, amazed at never having either heard him utter such words with his mouth, nor himself having ever desired to hear them. This is the spiritual temple built for the Lord.

For Barnabas, the temple of God is spiritual. It is revealed in the human heart. This temple is built up in place of the Jewish temple.

​

Good stuff, but Barnabas is not my source for truth.

 

[Rich R]

Hippolytus
Rome, Italy
(AD 170 – 236)
​

Chapter 25

And this, he says, is what Moses asserts: "The earth was invisible, and unfashioned." This (substance) is, he says, the good (and) the heavenly Jerusalem, into which God has promised to conduct the children of Israel, saying, "I will bring you into a land flowing with milk and honey."

Tertullian
Carthage, Africa, (now Tunisia)
(AD 160 – 240)​

On the Resurrection of the Flesh

In this way the Jews lose heavenly blessings, by confining their hopes to earthly ones, being ignorant of the promise of heavenly bread, and of the oil of God’s unction, and the wine of the Spirit, and of that water of life which has its vigour from the vine of Christ. On exactly the same principle, they consider the special soil of Judæa to be that very holy land, which ought rather to be interpreted of the Lord’s flesh, which, in all those who put on Christ, is thenceforward the holy land; holy indeed by the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, truly flowing with milk and honey by the sweetness of His assurance, truly Judæan by reason of the friendship of God. For “he is not a Jew which is one outwardly, but he who is one inwardly.” In the same way it is that both God’s temple and Jerusalem (must be understood) when it is said by Isaiah: “Awake, awake, O Jerusalem! put on the strength of thine arm; awake, as in thine earliest time,” that is to say, in that innocence which preceded the fall into sin. For how can words of this kind of exhortation and invitation be suitable for that Jerusalem which killed the prophets, and stoned those that were sent to them, and at last crucified its very Lord? Neither indeed is salvation promised to any one land at all, which must needs pass away with the fashion of the whole world. Even if anybody should venture strongly to contend that paradise is the holy land, which it may be possible to designate as the land of our first parents Adam and Eve, it will even then follow that the restoration of paradise will seem to be promised to the flesh, whose lot it was to inhabit and keep it, in order that man may be recalled thereto just such as he was driven from it.

Chapter 16. The Sacred Name Jesus Most Suited to the Christ of the Creator. Joshua a Type of Him.

This, then, we first observe, was a figure of Him who was to come. For inasmuch as Jesus Christ was to introduce a new generation (because we are born in the wilderness of this world) into the promised land which flows with milk and honey, that is, into the possession of eternal life, than which nothing can be sweeter; inasmuch, too, as this was to be brought about not by Moses, that is to say, not by the discipline of the law, but by Joshua, by the grace of the gospel, our circumcision being effected by a knife of stone, that is, (by the circumcision) of Christ, for Christ is a rock (or stone), therefore that great man, who was ordained as a type of this mystery, was actually consecrated with the figure of the Lord's own name, being called Joshua. This name Christ Himself even then testified to be His own, when He talked with Moses. For who was it that talked with him, but the Spirit of the Creator, which is Christ?

Tertullian is not my source for truth either.