It seems to me that many of the differences between the various eschatological views are based on determining what has been fulfilled and what hasn’t been fulfilled. Obviously if the Bible says something is fulfilled we can know for certain that it’s fulfilled, like Jesus being the promised Messiah.
In Matthew 11:3 John the Baptist sent two of his disciples to ask Jesus if he was the one that should come or if they should look for another. In vs 4 Jesus says to show John again the things you hear and see. Here is an example of how to tell if something was fulfilled, hear and see what’s going on and presumably compare it to scripture. I suppose an argument could be made that it’s spiritual hearing and seeing not literal hearing and seeing that Jesus is referring to, but the same account in Luke 7:18-23 clearly points to literally seeing and hearing of the miracles performed by Jesus.
Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets. A verse such as this could suggest that God will give believers understanding prior to fulfillment and therefore if there is no consensus on a prophecy, then we can determine it’s not yet fulfilled. However in Luke 24:25-27 those who were on the road to Emmaus are told they are slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken. This would be an example of how that idea is flawed, their understanding came after the fulfillment.
A full preterist is going to say all is fulfilled and an extreme futurist will say almost nothing is fulfilled and events in 66-70AD didn’t fulfill any scripture.
So I’m asking a general question, not about what has or hasn’t been fulfilled, or verses that simply declare an Old Testament prophecy has been fulfilled, but about verses that show how fulfillment is determined, or show a method that’s used to determine what’s fulfilled. What other examples are there besides the John the Baptist example that show how fulfillment is determined?
Fulfilment of Bible Prophesies is when they literally take place. Allegories and metaphors excepted; they point to realities.
It was not the intention of God, to give His prophets a clear, instantly understandable message. To have done that would have revealed His plans to all and sundry.
We can’t yet fully ascertain God’s ultimate design for His creation, although it is clear that he does want those who believe in Him and trust to His salvation, to be aware of coming events. We are told to trust Him and hold fast to our faith, but to do that in the midst of sudden and shocking events, without some idea of the outcome of such events, and then it is so much more difficult for us.
Therefore, because God HAS given us the information we need to know about the future, then it is a serious error to ignore it, to fail to gain some understanding or to think that a rapture removal to heaven will take us away from it all.
It must be obvious, to anyone who reads the news, that the current world situation is nearing unsustainability, in terms of resources and population. But the flash point and the focus of God’s plan, is the Middle East.
God has not, in the past 77 years, allowed Israel to be conquered and He will not allow that to happen now. Although there will be a judgement upon the Jewish people as well, a remnant will eventually be forgiven and restored. Ezekiel 16:59-63, Romans 9:27
Many prophecies tell of God’s fire judgement; this has not happened as yet, His first judgement was by a flood. This coming Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, is described as a terrible day of fire and earthquakes. It will be a Day when the heavens blaze; 2 Peter 3:7 & 10, burning like a furnace; Malachi 4:1, raining fiery coals; Psalms 11:4-6, fire like a whirlwind, many will be killed; Isaiah 66:15-17, suddenly, in an instant....flames of devouring fire; Isaiah 29:5-6.
But the verse that tells us exactly what God will use on that Day is Isaiah 30:26a Themoon will shine as bright as the sun and the sun will shine with 7 times its normal power.
This accurately describes a solar flare, something that does happen on a regular basis, usually harmlessly. In the past there have been larger Coronal Mass Ejections, explosions of the suns surface, but now; scientists warn of the possibility/probability of a massive CME, that in our modern age of communications, transport and conveniences, would have a devastating effect.
Now, note the second half of Isaiah 30:26b... on that Day, the Lord will bind up thebroken limbs of His people and heal their wounds.
This is a wonderful promise to His people, those who love the Lord and follow in His laws, every faithful Christian. Many, many prophecies tell how His people will be conveyed and gathered into all of the Holy Land, after this Day of judgement. Isaiah 66:18b-21 This forthcoming day and the gathering are quite different from that described at the Return of Jesus - years later.
Isaiah 52:6-12 On that Day, My people will know My Name.....go out leave Babylon, keepyourselves pure, the Lord will guard and guide you.
Ezekiel 28:25-26 When I execute judgement on all of Israel’s scornful neighbours, then My people: all the true believers, gathered from the nations, will live in peace in the Land, I shall show My holiness in them for everyone to see. [Before Jesus Returns]
Ezekiel 20:41-42 I shall accept you....after I have brought you out from the peopleswhere you have been dispersed, into the Land promised to your [Spiritual] forefathers.
Ref: REB. (verses abridged)
Fulfilment of Bible Prophesies is when they literally take place. Allegories and metaphors excepted; they point to realities.
It was not the intention of God, to give His prophets a clear, instantly understandable message. To have done that would have revealed His plans to all and sundry.
We can’t yet fully ascertain God’s ultimate design for His creation, although it is clear that he does want those who believe in Him and trust to His salvation, to be aware of coming events. We are told to trust Him and hold fast to our faith, but to do that in the midst of sudden and shocking events, without some idea of the outcome of such events, and then it is so much more difficult for us.
Therefore, because God HAS given us the information we need to know about the future, then it is a serious error to ignore it, to fail to gain some understanding or to think that a rapture removal to heaven will take us away from it all.
It must be obvious, to anyone who reads the news, that the current world situation is nearing unsustainability, in terms of resources and population. But the flash point and the focus of God’s plan, is the Middle East.
God has not, in the past 77 years, allowed Israel to be conquered and He will not allow that to happen now. Although there will be a judgement upon the Jewish people as well, a remnant will eventually be forgiven and restored. Ezekiel 16:59-63, Romans 9:27
Many prophecies tell of God’s fire judgement; this has not happened as yet, His first judgement was by a flood. This coming Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, is described as a terrible day of fire and earthquakes. It will be a Day when the heavens blaze; 2 Peter 3:7 & 10, burning like a furnace; Malachi 4:1, raining fiery coals; Psalms 11:4-6, fire like a whirlwind, many will be killed; Isaiah 66:15-17, suddenly, in an instant....flames of devouring fire; Isaiah 29:5-6.
But the verse that tells us exactly what God will use on that Day is Isaiah 30:26a Themoon will shine as bright as the sun and the sun will shine with 7 times its normal power.
This accurately describes a solar flare, something that does happen on a regular basis, usually harmlessly. In the past there have been larger Coronal Mass Ejections, explosions of the suns surface, but now; scientists warn of the possibility/probability of a massive CME, that in our modern age of communications, transport and conveniences, would have a devastating effect.
Now, note the second half of Isaiah 30:26b... on that Day, the Lord will bind up thebroken limbs of His people and heal their wounds.
This is a wonderful promise to His people, those who love the Lord and follow in His laws, every faithful Christian. Many, many prophecies tell how His people will be conveyed and gathered into all of the Holy Land, after this Day of judgement. Isaiah 66:18b-21 This forthcoming day and the gathering are quite different from that described at the Return of Jesus - years later.
Isaiah 52:6-12 On that Day, My people will know My Name.....go out leave Babylon, keepyourselves pure, the Lord will guard and guide you.
Ezekiel 28:25-26 When I execute judgement on all of Israel’s scornful neighbours, then My people: all the true believers, gathered from the nations, will live in peace in the Land, I shall show My holiness in them for everyone to see. [Before Jesus Returns]
Ezekiel 20:41-42 I shall accept you....after I have brought you out from the peopleswhere you have been dispersed, into the Land promised to your [Spiritual] forefathers.
Ref: REB. (verses abridged)
I "poo pooed" your idea of a CME years ago on another forum( I don't know if you remember), However, after a bit of research the idea began to grow on me. It sounds like what is going on here:
Rv 16:8-9 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
Thanks for your reply. When I look at something that is prophesied to happen and I follow the instructions of Matthew 11:4 to hear and see, to me that would imply that from the time that prophecy was made all the events that were seen and heard need to be considered as possibilities for the fulfillment.
So, as an example, in Matthew 24:29 we have the statement the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. In Ezekiel 32:7-8 we have a very similar statement that was fulfilled in 586-585 BC.
When I see and hear how “the sun will be darkened, and …” was fulfilled and have never seen nor heard it being fulfilled in a literal/physical manner, then anticipating a different kind of fulfillment would mean one has to discount some of what has been seen and heard.
The Pharisees saw and heard the miracles Jesus performed but it seems they discounted them because they were anticipating a different kind of fulfillment from the Messiah.
Shouldn’t our method of determining how something gets fulfilled be based on the methods we have seen and heard?
A full preterist is going to say all is fulfilled and an extreme futurist will say almost nothing is fulfilled and events in 66-70AD didn’t fulfill any scripture.
I know that's what this forum is mostly. The various theologies argue back and forth. Like I'm an Amill, no you're not. Yes I am, No you're not. Yes I am, No you're not. And then they'll throw up Daniel 9:27 again and say I'm an Amill, no you're not. Yes I am, No you're not. Yes I am, No you're not.
So I’m asking a general question, not about what has or hasn’t been fulfilled, or verses that simply declare an Old Testament prophecy has been fulfilled, but about verses that show how fulfillment is determined, or show a method that’s used to determine what’s fulfilled. What other examples are there besides the John the Baptist example that show how fulfillment is determined?
That John the Baptist example seemed unique. I have to wonder if he wasn't getting impatient when he asked if Jesus was the One, or should we wait for another? Of all the men born of women, he must have known Jesus was the Lamb to take away the sins of the world. He must have wanted to get the show on the road. Like some of us are now.
I was just this week thinking Matthew 24:26 might just now been fulfilled in the news. It was strange for it to be coming out now. I might post it in another thread for some fun.
It's tricky. Because the only verses which prove the Old Testament prophecies are fulfilled are in the prophetic periods of time found in Daniel and Revelation. Like when the Day of the Lord prophecies are fulfilled, everyone in the world will know it. Everyone will know that the God of the Bible has come back. Even the lost will cry out to the mountains to fall on them and hide them from the face of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb.
In my view, the Old Testament Judaic prophecies were conditional prophecies which are already fulfilled by not being fulfilled. I should put this thing in here again:
Five Types of Bible Prophecy
1) Local Prophecy
Prophecies applicable to a specific place and time. These would include Noah's flood, or Jonah's visit to the people of Nineveh. Maybe that King who saw his shadow moving backwards.
2) Messianic Prophecy
These had to do with Jesus' first Visitation. Like Isaiah 52
He Was Pierced for Our Transgressions
Behold, my servant shall act wisely;b
he shall be high and lifted up,
and shall be exalted.
As many were astonished at you—
his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance,
and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—
So shall he sprinkle many nations.
Kings shall shut their mouths because of him,
for that which has not been told them they see,
and that which they have not heard they understand.
3) Day of the Lord Prophecy
Very peculiar in their structure. Like Isaiah 13. John MacArthur calls them near/far prophecies. In a Day of the Lord Prophecy the Prophet can begin in an ancient Day of the Lord event to do with the Babylonians, and then can seem to peer down through the millennia to the final and ultimate Day of the Lord that will include all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.
4) Judaic Prophecy
These are conditional prophecies that pertained to Ancient Israel. If you obey the Lord your God. If you do this, then He will do that. If they put away the bodies of their dead kings, THEN show them the plan of the Temple.
If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God:
5) Apocalyptic Prophecy
Apocalyptic Prophesy has unique characteristics. They are separated by chronological order. Each of these have a beginning point in time, and an ending point in time. When the chronological order is broken, and the subject matter changes, a new prophecy begins. There are 17 Apocalyptic prophecies, and 18 prophetic time periods, in the Books of Daniel and Revelation. What makes these unique from the OT Judaic end time prophecies are the prophetic time periods connected with the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation.
So my own concern is first and foremost with the Apocalyptic prophecies found in Daniel and Revelation. Because they are full of so much symbolism, I can only figure them out using my little green bar graph avatar. This is technical analysis. This is where the price action makes for market commentary. Trade the charts, do not trade a story. There's too many stories out there. This is the pilot flying by instrumentation, when poor visibility precludes the use of VFR. We see through the glass dimly.
Intertwined within the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation, there are prophetic periods of time. There are 18 prophetic time periods. These are our charts, our price action and our instrumentation. It's the only way that the three wise men could have known WHEN to be looking for His star in the east.
So let me first find the time, times and half a time, and I'll know where the Dragon was chasing the Woman. Let me find the 1260 days of Revelation 11, and I'll know who the Two Witnesses were. And let me pin the five months of Revelation 9, and I'll know we are into the trumpets. Let me find the 7 and 62 weeks again in our end times, and like the three wise men, I'll know when to be looking for the One we are waiting for. It's spooky.
Five Months of Revelation 9
Season of the Locust
A cool thing is that as I write this, I can see the jeffweeder post about the "appointed time is fulfilled" in the "similar" thread list below. I remember on that other forum that went out of business. I was talking to Christian Gedge around 2014. Christian Gedge and Larry Wilson were the two best Biblical Calendrical guys around. Larry was the first to notice it, and Christian agreed when I posted it on that forum. Early in Mark, in the spring of 27AD, Jesus said that the "time" had been fulfilled. The only time He could have been speaking of was the Daniel 9 time, the 62 weeks of Daniel 9.
What was the prescribed method for understanding everlasting righteousness? Couldn't be the blood of an animal sacrificed every year could it.? Has to be the blood of the suffering servant once and for all. Righteousness is doing the right thing or being in the right. The prophets mention that...
www.christianityboard.com
18 Prophetic Time Periods
1. Time, times and half a time (saints persecuted – Daniel 7:25)
2. 2,300 evenings and mornings (until temple restored – Daniel 8:14)
3. 70 weeks (determined upon the Jews, Messiah crucified – Daniel 9:24,25)
4. Time, times and half a time (when completed, power of the holy people – Daniel 12:7)
5. 1,290 days (from the end of the daily to the setting up of the abomination – Daniel 12:11)
6. 1,335 days (blessed is the one who waits for and reaches this day – Daniel 12:12)
7. Half hour of silence (at the opening of the 7th seal – Revelation 8:1)
8. 5 months (length of torture upon those not having the seal of God – Revelation 9:5)
9. Hour, day, month and year (event when war begins – Revelation 9:15)
10. 42 months (Gentiles trample holy city – Revelation 11:2)
11. 1,260 days (Two Witnesses empowered for this length of time – Revelation 11:3)
12. 3.5 days (bodies of Two Witnesses lie in the street – Revelation 11:11)
13. 1,260 days (woman fled into the desert – Revelation 12:6)
14. Time, times and half a time (woman fled into the desert – Revelation 12:14)
15. 42 months (persecution of saints – Revelation 13:5)
16. One hour (ten kings join with beast – Revelation 17:12)
17. One day, one hour (Babylon’s destruction begins – Revelation 18:8,19)
18. 1,000 years (Satan in the abyss – Revelation 20:2)
This list was compiled by my friend Larry Wilson from Ohio.
And in our view, all of the prophetic time periods are literal time. There can be day for a year translation, but there is no such thing as symbolic "time".
Intertwined within the prophecies in Daniel and Revelation, there are prophetic periods of time. There are 18 prophetic time periods. These are our charts, our price action and our instrumentation. It's the only way that the three wise men could have known WHEN to be looking for His star in the east.
Thanks for your post, I can definitely appreciate charts. I have personal experience trading stocks using technical analysis.
On your chart it appears you have all known prophecies being fulfilled between mid April and mid September. Is that correct? If so that is a very interesting and important thing to consider.
On your chart it appears you have all known prophecies being fulfilled between mid April and mid September. Is that correct? If so that is a very interesting and important thing to consider.
No. Not correct. My fault for posting the anonymous chart. I'll go back and edit the post for clarity. And keep in mind this is only my read on it. I can be wrong, but I don't think I am. The chart is only for the 'five months' or Relation 9, and the fist vial of Revelation 16. But those five months appear to have occurred, as expected, within a larger prophetic time period defined in another prophecy.
Painful sores came upon the men who bore the mark of the beast. Men were asking for death, for the penalty for sin is death, but death did flee from them. It was the season of the locust, from May to September. Uncanny how it turned on and off like a switch.
I borrowed the chart from a UK health site, but it was a global event. I like that chart because it lets me show it without immediately indicating what exactly it is.
I also like how your OP is not asking about specifics of what has or hasn’t been fulfilled, just a general question of how to know.
I guess it's bad enough for me to suggest we are already in the trumpets and vials.
Voluntary disclosure: I think Jesus is coming sooner than most.
No. Not correct. My fault for posting the anonymous chart. I'll go back and edit the post for clarity. And keep in mind this is only my read on it. I can be wrong, but I don't think I am. The chart is only for the 'five months' or Relation 9, and the fist vial of Revelation 16. But those five months appear to have occurred, as expected, within a larger prophetic time period defined in another prophecy.
Painful sores came upon the men who bore the mark of the beast. Men were asking for death, for the penalty for sin is death, but death did flee from them. It was the season of the locust, from May to September. Uncanny how it turned on and off like a switch.
I borrowed the chart from a UK health site, but it was a global event. I like that chart because it lets me show it without immediately indicating what exactly it is.
I also like how your OP is not asking about specifics of what has or hasn’t been fulfilled, just a general question of how to know.
I guess it's bad enough for me to suggest we are already in the trumpets and vials.
Voluntary disclosure: I think Jesus is coming sooner than most.
You mentioned the three wisemen in your other post and we certainly know that they had some kind of method they used to determine when Jesus was born, undoubtedly they used information that came from Daniel, and most likely the seventy weeks but we don’t know for certain. I’ve seen where people claim they used astrological means to come to their conclusions but the Bible itself isn’t clear on how they knew.
You mentioned your green bar chart. Can you elaborate more on your chart and how you see the wisemen being able to determine when to come seek the birth of Jesus?
You mentioned the three wisemen in your other post and we certainly know that they had some kind of method they used to determine when Jesus was born, undoubtedly they used information that came from Daniel, and most likely the seventy weeks but we don’t know for certain. I’ve seen where people claim they used astrological means to come to their conclusions but the Bible itself isn’t clear on how they knew.
You mentioned your green bar chart. Can you elaborate more on your chart and how you see the wisemen being able to determine when to come seek the birth of Jesus?
I agree they used the information that came from Daniel 9. Some have suggested they may have descended from the wise men of Babylon which Daniel saved from destruction when they couldn't tell the king of his dream in Daniel 2. It's interesting God arranged for non-Jews to eventually be among the first people in the world to recognize the arrival of the King of kings.
Daniel 9 is the only place that sets out the timing for the coming of the Son of Man. They would have had to be aware of the Artaxerxes Decree in 457BC. They would have known 27AD, after 62 weeks would be too late to bring the baby Jesus his gifts. In the end God is in charge, and they were a part of the narrative.
And since Daniel 9 is the only place which sets out the detail of the timing for the arrival of Christ, I don't mind people who continue to post verse 27 to this very day. Isaac Newton was the first to write of why the 7 and 62 weeks must also be applicable to the second coming, as well as the first.
My green bar graph is still a work in progress. Numbers entered into a little kids bar graph program. Just the three time periods from Daniel 12, and the number of days in between the completion of a solar eclipse, and a moon that did not give it's light.
I "poo pooed" your idea of a CME years ago on another forum( I don't know if you remember), However, after a bit of research the idea began to grow on me. It sounds like what is going on here:
