The Galilean wedding is the model for the pre-trib rapture

[Spiritual Israelite]

You need me to look up where the ac kills all refusing the mark.?
Rev13
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Where does this say that the beast "kills all refusing the mark"? It looks like that is your assumption. It says he makes war with the saints and overcomes them, but does not say he literally overcomes (kills) all of them. Your doctrine is based purely on assumptions and speculation.

Here is more backing up what I already posted:

Rev 13
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Obviously there is no such thing as a rapture of believers at the end of the trib.

If you read all of Revelation 13, then you know that the context here is only those whose names are not written in the book of life. Your hyper-literalism is doing you no favors here.

Tell me, does the following say that God would pour out His Spirit on literally all people?

Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Using your hyper-literal method of interpretation, we would have no choice but to conclude that this passage is saying that God would pour out His Spirit upon literally all people. And, yet, we all know that is not what it is saying and the context is only all believers, not literally all people. We should similarly discern that Revelation 13:16-17 is not referring to literally all people, but only to all people whose names are not written in the book of life.

There is no antichrist chasing elusive believers from cave to cave and then some tiny group of 40 believers the main harvest of the rapture.

LOL. How can we take you seriously when you say things like this? It's impossible.

Scripture says, not me, that all either take the mark or die.

False. It's clearly you saying that and only assuming that scripture says it.

I have no idea who started that notion of believers making it through the gt.

Those who have much more discernment than you. Those who consider context as well as the rest of scripture instead of interpreting a passage in isolation without any care about context or whether or not your interpretation contradicts other scripture.

Anything else you want looked up again?

It's hilarious that you think you proved anything here besides that you are willing to make scripture say whatever you want it to say.

Mat 24?

Yes. Prove convincingly that there are two completely separate gatherings of believers taught there.

The 50-50 of mat 24?

I assume you're referring to one being taken and one left, right? Yes, please cover that again and show me exactly what it says happens to those who are left. Don't forget to keep other scripture like Luke 17:32-37 in mind when exegeting that passage so that you don't come up with an interpretation which contradicts passages like that one.

No problem at all bringing the verses I USE REGULARLY to easily defend pretrib rapture

Your defense of a pretrib rapture is extremely weak. You are too arrogant to see that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus said before the flood .
By now you are just batting the air

What did He say about what happened before the flood? People were eating and drinking and marrying and then the flood came and destroyed them all. Are you saying people stopped eating, drinking, marrying, etc. even before the flood? If not, what in the world are you saying? Vague comments like this do nothing to help your case. Is your lack of specifics about what you're intending to say an indication that you know you have no idea what you're talking about? So, you have no choice but to be as vague as possible? That's how it comes across. Can you stop being lazy and actually show what it is that you're talking about and back it up with scripture?

 

[The Light]

LOL. Not so. The Scriptures speak for themselves. Let us put your theology to the test. Let us examine your so-called "proof-texts" one by one.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 declares, “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

This passage corroborates the Posttrib position. We have already shown, Christ comes with and for His saints in one glorious final coming. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” We have also highlighted the fact the word rendered “remain” in our King James Version is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can assume from this meaning that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. Obviously, they endured the tribulation that this world affords to every saint.

Smoke screen.

Why don't you post the Greek that you changed on purpose to make it look like you are correct.

Secondly. Where in Revelation is your rapture? Bet you can't find it.

 

[WPM]

Smoke screen.

Why don't you post the Greek that you changed on purpose to make it look like you are correct.

Secondly. Where in Revelation is your rapture? Bet you can't find it.

This is all fizz and bubble. The Scriptures speak for themselves. I do not need to change anything. If I quote the original it is simply for explanation or enlargement, not to disprove the actual text. Quote the Scriptures that forbid my position instead of all the continual false accusations and avoidance. I cannot get one of you Pretribbers to actually address all the numerous holes in your theory.

By the way, you just avoided another passage (that is supposedly your proof-text) and more arguments that support one final future climactic coming of Jesus. And guess what? You have no rebuttal!

This is starting to get old. Do you realize how this looks for those watching on? Not good!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Smoke screen.

Why don't you post the Greek that you changed on purpose to make it look like you are correct.

Show me the Greek that he supposedly changed on purpose. Tell me what it means in Greek and what he supposedly changed it to mean.

Secondly. Where in Revelation is your rapture? Bet you can't find it.

He has already done that as have I. Do you forget everything people tell you?

Revelation 14:14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one like a son of man with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

I know you will immediately dismiss this one because of your false understanding of the two witnesses, but it's described here as well:

Revelation 11:11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. 12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

 

[WPM]

Where in Revelation is your rapture? Bet you can't find it.

There are not 2 comings of Jesus, as you claim, but one final future coming. There are several recaps in Revelation that cover the same last days intra-Advent era and that culminate with the one final future climactic return of Christ. The detail is the same. The only way you can deny the correlation and comparison between the 7 trumpets and the 7 vials is bias theology that requires you to deny the evidence. As a former Pretribber, and as a former Police Officer, I am convinced that the Amil Idealist view (that of 7 recaps in Revelation) is biblically and evidently compelling. Please compare. By comparing the seven trumpets to the seven vials we see a remarkable detailed, yet symbolic, picture of God’s sovereign dealings with wickedness and the wicked. It relates to the period sandwiched between Christ’s two Advents since he made a show openly of the devil at Calvary. In comparing the two, we view the same events from slightly different camera angles. Although, coming from divergent angles, the parallels are clearly indisputable.

John was simply shown a number of parallel visions one after the other, all culminating in the climactic coming of Christ. Each parallel concentrate on the same time period and the symbolic ongoing events that occur throughout, viewing them from slightly different camera angles. Sometimes God is speaking primarily of the elect, sometimes He is majoring on the wicked. Sometimes He is describing the righteous in heaven, sometimes the righteous on earth. Sometimes it is the humans that reside within the kingdom of darkness, sometimes it is the invisible demonic host that reside there. Although coming from divergent angles, the parallels are carefully interwoven like a linen cloth. Often to establish the meaning and format of the book, we have to meticulously and patiently fit the jig-saw pieces together in order to see the unfolding picture. That is not to say we have a full revelation of this peculiar book, but we can have an insight into this inspired book.

The parallels reveal the increasing degrees of intensity of the intra-Advent conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness, culminating in a great final gathering for battle and the climactic return of Christ to obliterate all rebellion.

I will focus in on the end of each cycle that I have proposed as time and space doesn’t allow me to perform a complete exposition of Revelation.

CYCLE 1 (received on Patmos)

Seven Churches (Ch 2-3).

Although addressed to 7 local churches to sort out local problems. The constant theme of the Coming Christ and His kingdom pervades throughout.

CYCLE 2 (received in heaven)

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

The seventh seal is silence in response to the destruction of the world in the sixth seal.

Revelation 6:12-7:17 gives us the detail of the sixth seal. The first part of the seal (that which is contained within Revelation 6) is given over to describing the wrath of ‘the day of the Lord’ and His judgment upon the wicked. Whereas, the second part of the seal (which takes up the whole of Revelation 7) is given over to describing that which relates to the elect of God on the day of the Lord – the day of His Second Coming.

The first aspect, is outlined in Revelation 6:12-17, says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Before the aforementioned destruction is implemented the Lord has to instigate an important deliverance. We find this in the second part of the sixth seal found in Revelation 7:1-4,which says, “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”

The awful destruction outlined in Revelation 6 CANNOT be perfected until the righteous are totally and completely saved.

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 3 (received in heaven)

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8:6-10:7)

Previously in Scripture we have learnt that the coming of the Lord is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet. By clear implication, if the last trump relates to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the ONLY set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture.

Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

The End!!!

The King James Version interprets the passage correctly:

“chronos ouketi estai”

time - no longer – there shall be

The interpretation of these Greek words in this passage is in clear and absolute agreement with their usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming.

Anyway, the whole import of the rest of the passage perfectly confirms the all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of god should be finished.”

Revelation 11:15-17 makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.”

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

The End!!!

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump - the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” NOT for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.”

 

[WPM]

Where in Revelation is your rapture? Bet you can't find it.

CYCLE 4 (received in heaven)

The Church and its onslaught from the devil (Ch 12) including a parallel view of the beast’s (the world anti-Christ system – intra-advent) persecution of the elect (Ch 13) and the simultaneous joy of the redeemed (Ch 14) in heaven (Ch 12-14).

Revelation 14:14-20 says, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Christ), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; For the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud (Christ) thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 5 (received in heaven)

Seven Vials (Ch 16)

If our supposition is to fit perfectly, the final vial, in keeping with the final trumpet, must be an unmistakable description of the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and the rapture of the saints. Similarly, it must also be a solemn picture of the outpouring of God’s wrath upon the wicked and the end of the world.

Revelation 16:17-21 declares, “And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, ‘It is done’ (or Gegonen). And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 6 (received in heaven)

Babylon (17-19)

Revelation 19:7-10 tells us, “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb."

Here is the great meeting in the air when Jesus comes. This is when the Church throughout time meets Christ in the air. This is the same scene portrayed in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9.

His “wife” is said to have “made herself ready.”

Ready for what?

Ready, “for the marriage of the Lamb.” Whilst we (the Church) have been betrothed to Christ in salvation, the marriage will not be finally consummated until the Bridegroom comes.

Clearly “the marriage of the Lamb” to “his wife” is referring to the final consummation of the relationship between Christ and His bride – the Church – at the second coming. This woman with her innate purity is such a contrast to the whore in the introductory verses that is judged. The two women couldn’t be more diverse. One is judged the other is blessed. The status of the Lamb’s wife is outlined in the passage and confirms her honoured status; “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” The bride is the body of believers down through the years, which have placed their trust and eternity on the blood of Christ, whether in the old or the new economy.

The marriage union is the glorification feat where we are eternally changed in order to enjoy God forever – this is the final act of redemption. This is the marriage of the Lamb. In short, a prepared bride is made ready to unite with a prepared bridegroom. For this climactic event she is arrayed in the righteousness of Christ. This is her worthiness for marriage.

After “the marriage of the Lamb,” which is the glorification of the saints of all time (including the dead in Christ and the live in Christ), the saints return as an army (following Christ) to destroy the wicked. John continues, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword (the Word of God), that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall poimaino (or ‘shepherd’) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS” (Revelation 19:11-16).

Revelation 19:17-21 continues, “And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the remnant (or those left behind) were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

The End!!!

Those who hold the Premillennialist position often advance this passage as support for their mistaken view that Christ is coming back to this earth to reign for a thousand years. However, the word poimaino in this reading which is rendered “rule” in the AV, carries the consistent meaning of Shepherd and shepherding in Scripture.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have attacked His sheep. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

CYCLE 7 (received in heaven)

The figurative binding of Satan from the cross and the victorious reign of the saints in heaven. The ushering in of the New Heaven and the New Earth (Ch 20-22).

Here we have a great spiritual assault upon the Church just prior to the end. In keeping with the rest of Scripture, fire comes down from heaven and devours the wicked.

Revelation 20:11-15 says, “And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

CONCLUSION

I don’t believe any open-minded objective Bible student could arrive at any conclusion other than the fact that Revelation is a number of similar parallels taking us up to the Second Advent (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern happens repeatedly through the New Testament. Also, they are clearly intra-advent.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is all fizz and bubble. The Scriptures speak for themselves. I do not need to change anything. If I quote the original it is simply for explanation or enlargement, not to disprove the actual text. Quote the Scriptures that forbid my position instead of all the continual false accusations and avoidance. I cannot get one of you Pretribbers to actually address all the numerous holes in your theory.

By the way, you just avoided another passage (that is supposedly your proof-text) and more arguments that support one final future climactic coming of Jesus. And guess what? You have no rebuttal!

Not only does he have no rebuttal, he doesn't even attempt one. That's very telling.

This is starting to get old. Do you realize how this looks for those watching on? Not good!

Only starting to get old?

I can confirm that to those of us watching your discussion with him, his avoidance of addressing your arguments doesn't look good at all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are not 2 comings of Jesus, as you claim, but one final future coming. There are several recaps in Revelation that cover the same last days intra-Advent era and that culminate with the one final future climactic return of Christ. The detail is the same. The only way you can deny the correlation and comparison between the 7 trumpets and the 7 vials is bias theology that requires you to deny the evidence. As a former Pretribber, and as a former Police Officer, I am convinced that the Amil Idealist view (that of 7 recaps in Revelation) is biblically and evidently compelling. Please compare. By comparing the seven trumpets to the seven vials we see a remarkable detailed, yet symbolic, picture of God’s sovereign dealings with wickedness and the wicked. It relates to the period sandwiched between Christ’s two Advents since he made a show openly of the devil at Calvary. In comparing the two, we view the same events from slightly different camera angles. Although, coming from divergent angles, the parallels are clearly indisputable.

John was simply shown a number of parallel visions one after the other, all culminating in the climactic coming of Christ. Each parallel concentrate on the same time period and the symbolic ongoing events that occur throughout, viewing them from slightly different camera angles.....

The parallels reveal the increasing degrees of intensity of the intra-Advent conflict between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness, culminating in a great final gathering for battle and the climactic return of Christ to obliterate all rebellion.

I will focus in on the end of each cycle that I have proposed as time and space doesn’t allow me to perform a complete exposition of Revelation.

CYCLE 1 (received on Patmos)

Seven Churches (Ch 2-3).

Although addressed to 7 local churches to sort out local problems. The constant theme of the Coming Christ and His kingdom pervades throughout.

CYCLE 2 (received in heaven)

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

The seventh seal is silence in response to the destruction of the world in the sixth seal.

Revelation 6:12-7:17 gives us the detail of the sixth seal. The first part of the seal (that which is contained within Revelation 6) is given over to describing the wrath of ‘the day of the Lord’ and His judgment upon the wicked. Whereas, the second part of the seal (which takes up the whole of Revelation 7) is given over to describing that which relates to the elect of God on the day of the Lord – the day of His Second Coming.

The first aspect, is outlined in Revelation 6:12-17, says, “And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; and the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?”

Before the aforementioned destruction is implemented the Lord has to instigate an important deliverance. We find this in the second part of the sixth seal found in Revelation 7:1-4,which says, “And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.”

The awful destruction outlined in Revelation 6 CANNOT be perfected until the righteous are totally and completely saved.

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

The End!!!

CYCLE 3 (received in heaven)

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8:6-10:7)

Previously in Scripture we have learnt that the coming of the Lord is ushered in by the sound of the trumpet. By clear implication, if the last trump relates to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ there must be others that precede it. Revelation seems to support this weighty inference. Moreover, the seven trumpets outlined in Revelation chapters 8 to 10 are the ONLY set of prophetic trumpets in Scripture.

Revelation 10:1-4 (removed text to keep this post under 10,000 characters)

The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming.

Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”

The End!!!

The King James Version interprets the passage correctly:

“chronos ouketi estai”

time - no longer – there shall be

The interpretation of these Greek words in this passage is in clear and absolute agreement with their usage everywhere else in Scripture. Those who interpret it otherwise probably do so to explain away the undoubted finality of the second coming.

Anyway, the whole import of the rest of the passage perfectly confirms the all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of god should be finished.”

Revelation 11:15-17 makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.”

The next verse, verse 18 then reveals how the Second Advent ushers in the general judgment, saying, “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest (1) give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest (2) destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”

The End!!!

The unquestionable finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump - the final trumpet sound for all mankind. “The kingdoms of this world” have finally “become the kingdoms of our lord, and of his Christ” and “he shall reign” NOT for 1000 years as some would have us believe but “for ever and ever.”

Now THIS is how to exegete scripture. The pretribs could learn a lot from studying this. When it comes to a book like Revelation, you have to do your due diligence and thoroughly exegete it while looking at context if you want to have any hope of understanding it properly. And that is exactly what you have done here and in your other post describing the rest of the cycles.

The context of the seventh trumpet is clearly that once it sounds, it's all over. The mystery of God will be finished at that point. It will be time for those who destroy the earth to be destroyed. It will be the time for the dead to be judged, which we later see portrayed in Revelation 20:11-15. How anyone can think that things will continue happen for some amount of years after the seventh trumpet sounds is beyond me. The cycles or parallels in Revelation are clear. There is no way to make sense of the book and no way to make it agree with the rest of scripture if you don't recognize the repeated cycles/parallels/recapitulations in the book.

 

[The Light]

Again, this is all private opinion and human imagination. Scripture does not teach this or allow it. That is why none of you can disect or exegete a scriptural passage or present a biblical rebuttal. Read this thread.

You have double vision. You have invented a third coming, which does not exist. You have no Scripture whatsover to support this, only extra-biblical theories that your mentors taught you. I suspect you know that.

The debate has been won long ago. This is all noise, frustration, avoidance and ad hominem from you 3 now.

Ok. Where is the rapture found in Revelation?

 

[The Light]

I truly get a headache when reading the pretribbers' attempts at describing their incredibly convoluted doctrine. It makes my head spin. Is the truth really that complicated? You have people believing in 5 raptures, 3 comings of Christ and other nonsense that is not mentioned anywhere in scripture. How can anyone make any sense of all that? Doesn't God want us to know the truth about these things? Did He purposely make it all into a 10,000 piece puzzle that we need to put together?

You might make sense of it if you studied the scriptures.

Are you unable to see the two witnesses get raptured?
Are you unable to see that the 144,000 get raptured?
Are you unable to see the harvest of Revelation 14
I know that you are unable to see when the Lord when you think not.

 

[The Light]

LOL. Not so. The Scriptures speak for themselves. Let us put your theology to the test. Let us examine your so-called "proof-texts" one by one.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 declares, “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

This passage corroborates the Posttrib position. We have already shown, Christ comes with and for His saints in one glorious final coming. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” We have also highlighted the fact the word rendered “remain” in our King James Version is the Greek word perileipo, which means “to survive.” Thus, we can assume from this meaning that the Lord is returning for those who remain by surviving. Obviously, they endured the tribulation that this world affords to every saint.

Ok. You can have your way. We can use survive.

Then we which are alive and remain(survive) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It changes nothing. They are caught up or raptured.

You are very confused. You think you believe in a post trib rapture. However, you believe in a post wrath rapture.

 

[WPM]

Ok. Where is the rapture found in Revelation?

Where you find His coming, there is a gathering and union with Christ. There is only one coming and catching away.

 

[WPM]

Ok. You can have your way. We can use survive.

Then we which are alive and remain(survive) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It changes nothing. They are caught up or raptured.

You are very confused. You think you believe in a post trib rapture. However, you believe in a post wrath rapture.

I wonder why? That is what the text teaches. There are no survivors. There is no tribulation period. That is why you cannot show it. That is why you refuse to tell us how long your trib is. You have nothing in the text to support your thesis. Quite the opposite. It forbids your thesis.

We all agree there will be a catching away (rapture). But it is not a Pretrib event. You have nothing to support that!

II Thessalonians 1:7-10 says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire (1) taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When (2) he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

There are no wicked left to enter into the alleged Premillennialism future millennium!!!

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms this saying: “we which are alive and remain unto the [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of tHis coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for your future goat-infested millennium.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You might make sense of it if you studied the scriptures.

Why do you say things like this? What is the reason that you are so extremely immature? If you disagree with my doctrine, fine. So be it. But, to accuse me of not studying the scriptures? What a lie! You know that's not true. I have given detailed exegesis of scripture here many times. That can't be done without studying scripture. And you know it. But, you still say things like this. What is wrong with you?

Are you unable to see the two witnesses get raptured?

No, I see it perfectly well. And I can see that the two witnesses are also called "two olive trees" which represents the church (Romans 11:11-24).

Are you unable to see that the 144,000 get raptured?

No. Where does it describe the rapture of the 144,000? Be specific.

Are you unable to see the harvest of Revelation 14

Goodness gracious. Are you reading anything I'm saying? I have specifically quoted Revelation 14:14-16 to you several times. And you still ask me this? Do you want to be taken seriously or not? If you can't remember anything you're told, then how can you be taken seriously?

I know that you are unable to see when the Lord when you think not.

LOL. You are unable to see the parallels in the book that each refer to the same one rapture. Paul only wrote about one rapture. With the understanding that the word "rapture" specifically refers to being gathered or caught up, he only specifically referred to it in 1 Thess 4:14-17 and 2 Thess 2:1-3. To be clear, I'm not saying he never referred elsewhere to other things that occur on the same day as the rapture, such as in 1 Corinthians 15. Surely, if there was more than one rapture (gathering of believers to Christ), he would have wrote about all of them. But, he only wrote about one. You have no answer for this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok. You can have your way. We can use survive.

Then we which are alive and remain(survive) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It changes nothing. They are caught up or raptured.

You are very confused. You think you believe in a post trib rapture. However, you believe in a post wrath rapture.

You didn't address his points whatsoever! Why not? Are you afraid to? He pointed out that when the rapture occurs, Jesus comes both WITH and FOR His saints. Can you please address that and stop avoiding it? Do you believe that the souls of the dead in Christ are in heaven now? If so, do you believe He will bring those souls with Him when He comes from heaven when the rapture occurs?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I wonder why? That is what the text teaches. There are no survivors. There is no tribulation period. That is why you cannot show it. That is why you refuse to tell us how long your trib is. You have nothing in the text to support your thesis. Quite the opposite. It forbids your thesis.

II Thessalonians 1:7-10 says, “the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire (1) taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When (2) he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

There are no wicked left to enter into the alleged Premillennialism future millennium!!!

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:3 confirms this saying: “we which are alive and remain unto the [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”

This coming is not only sudden but noisy. Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears with “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and bring forth the elect from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s coming that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of tHis coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that none escape. That is explicit in the narrative. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for your future goat-infested millennium.

Agree completely. Let me be frank here (as if I'm normally not...hehe). Anyone who can't recognize that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 is the same event as 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 is blinded by extreme doctrinal bias. Period.

 

[Timtofly]

Agree. Look at rebuilder454's post where he indicates that the foolish virgins are saved Christians, but somehow not part of the bride of Christ. What? Such a concept is not taught in scripture anywhere. Not even close. And then he says Jesus turns them away to face an imaginary Antichrist during an imaginary time period of tribulation. Again, not taught in scripture anywhere. Instead, scripture says such people will be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. His interpretation of the parable is so far off base that it's just unbelievable.

What do you do with the point that Satan is King of the entire earth with full authority from God? Revelation 13, 17, and 18.

That is the third woe, connected to the 7th Trumpet?

Will Satan be in charge, and once every one knows, then 42 months later the Second Coming will happen?

 

[Timtofly]

The one thing I try to never do, Timothy, is come up with an opinion entirely my own. If I do, then I know I'm on a colossal ego trip, thinking God only reveals stuff to me!

So what I try to do is get a feel for how God has showed things to Christians down through the ages. They prayed for answers too!

And what I find is that whether they're wrong or right, their historical conditions impacted how they looked at things. But generally, they had a reason for seeing things the way they did. But if *nobody* sees things the way you do, you should abandon ship as soon as possible!

The False Prophet does not follow the 7th Trumpet--only in the narrative. The 7th Trumpet is the conclusion of one vision, and it represents the end of the age and the coming of Christ's Kingdom. The False Prophet precedes the end of the age by at least 3.5 years!

The language of the Beast originates in Dan 7, which is the only prophecy that gives substantial information about the Antichrist in the Old Testament. The 4th Beast is the last in succession and the last Kingdom in history before Christ's Kingdom comes. It was the Roman Empire, indicating that the Roman Kingdom is one and the same as the European Kingdom which has existed all through NT history, even though it broke up into a number of states, East and West Europe.

Daniel indicates 10 kings are reduced by 3 kings when the Little Horn, the Antichrist, defeats them. Simple math will tell you that leaves 7 kings, which Rev 13 calls "10 horns and 7 heads."

Paul never called Satan the "man of sin," and never identified the "man of sin" as Satan.

So Moses should have given up?

Paul should have given up?

What is the point you are making? If everyone is doing something, it must be right?

Satan was not identified, because he has not been revealed yet. All the amil over the last millennia think Satan is bound. Ask them when they think he will be revealed, because that is who Paul is referring to.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What do you do with the point that Satan is King of the entire earth with full authority from God? Revelation 13, 17, and 18.

That is the third woe, connected to the 7th Trumpet?

Will Satan be in charge, and once every one knows, then 42 months later the Second Coming will happen?

What does any of this have to do with what I said in the post you quoted (#1,225)? Do you agree with how rebuilder 454 interprets Matthew 25:1-13? Do you agree with him that the foolish virgins are saved Christians, but somehow not part of the bride of Christ? And that Jesus turns them away to face an Antichrist and tribulation rather than have them cast into "outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth" like those described in Matthew 7:21-23 who try to plead with Him by saying "Lord, Lord..."?

My point was to show how his interpretation of that passage is false. Do you have any thoughts on that or would you rather try to change the topic that was being discussed?